The view of Dragonball in general anime culture

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:45 pm

They have a scuffle for like 30 seconds and stop, as Vegeta tells Goku to use the Kaioken. Then there is Vegeta charging for like two minutes.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:02 pm

I do think I remember the actual animation being badmouthed on more than one occation, this was before, like a few years back. Another forum member also said how manga use lines to represent movement (which we all know) but also anime's that are crap, then I realised that DBZ does have a lot of lines and if you think about it, a moving animation shouldn't really require them. I do disagree though, because DBZ is not crap, it's really the only anime I watched.

One thing that does piss me off at times(which I noticed more in the DB series) are the non moving pictures when Goku is fighting, which are shown with the attacker kicking or punching, the victim who is drawn in a position where they've just been hit and the star icon thing that represents the 'smack' where they've been hit, this is, to me, a manga 'thing', and in the anime should be properly animated with real movement, not some freeze frame, so you can tell they got lazy at times, but I just ignore those, I mean, it's fair to show it in the manga as Toriyama can't draw it frame-by-frame no doubt, but in the anime...come on, it ain't doing Toriyama any justice, they've just copied his drawing and not done anything else. This doesn't happen all the time though.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Forgotten Hero wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:I don't get it. Why's the dub so popular? It's not even Dragon Ball. Stop polluting the Internet with this garbage about the fake Dragon Ball.
What?

The English dub loses everything that made Dragon Ball Dragon Ball. It retains nothing but the character names and the general plotline. The dialogue is almost never an accurate translation, character personalities are warped, the music is replaced with a soundtrack vastly inferior, and so many nuances are lost not because they're impossible to translate, but because Funimation doesn't care about them. Who cares about things which add to the series' charm or artistic integrity if they don't involve Super Saiyans and hardcore martial arts action?

The Japanese version of Dragon Ball is a charming, well-made show with a production team that truly cared about making a high-quality product. The English dub is a complete abomination churned out by people who don't care about the series itself, wishing only to make a profit. That is why the English version of Dragon Ball will forever be the fake one, because if your experience is limited to the bastardized English Dragon Ball, you know virtually nothing about the series.

B · Post by B » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:13 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:The Japanese version of Dragon Ball is a charming, well-made show with a production team that truly cared about making a high-quality product.

You can say what you want about FUNimation, but godDAMNIT, I will not be bold-faced lied to like that.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:17 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Forgotten Hero wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:I don't get it. Why's the dub so popular? It's not even Dragon Ball. Stop polluting the Internet with this garbage about the fake Dragon Ball.
What?
The English dub loses everything that made Dragon Ball Dragon Ball. It retains nothing but the character names and the general plotline. The dialogue is almost never an accurate translation, character personalities are warped, the music is replaced with a soundtrack vastly inferior, and so many nuances are lost not because they're impossible to translate, but because Funimation doesn't care about them. Who cares about things which add to the series' charm or artistic integrity if they don't involve Super Saiyans and hardcore martial arts action?

The Japanese version of Dragon Ball is a charming, well-made show with a production team that truly cared about making a high-quality product. The English dub is a complete abomination churned out by people who don't care about the series itself, wishing only to make a profit. That is why the English version of Dragon Ball will forever be the fake one, because if your experience is limited to the bastardized English Dragon Ball, you know virtually nothing about the series.

Have you watched anything past the Frieza saga as far as the dub goes?

B wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:The Japanese version of Dragon Ball is a charming, well-made show with a production team that truly cared about making a high-quality product.

You can say what you want about FUNimation, but godDAMNIT, I will not be bold-faced lied to like that.

And don't forget:

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:18 pm

=P

Yeah, I was getting really sick of that fight by the end. Aren't the Cell Games just about as bad? I believe the Games lasted around 20 episodes in the anime.

I watched a lot of the Buu Saga during its initial 2002-2003 airing on Cartoon Network, jj. I thought Dragon Ball's translation was lacking, too, and that's considered superior to the DBZ dub at its best. Who knows, maybe I'm just an uptight purist.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:21 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:=P

Yeah, I was getting really sick of that fight by the end. Aren't the Cell Games just about as bad? I believe the Games lasted around 20 episodes in the anime.

I watched a lot of the Buu Saga during its initial 2002-2003 airing on Cartoon Network, jj. I thought Dragon Ball's translation was lacking, too, and that's considered superior to the DBZ dub at its best. Who knows, maybe I'm just an uptight purist.

But you haven't watched the Buu saga or Cell Games with the japanese subtitles, have you? Otherwise you wouldn't be saying that one statement about no lines being accurate.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:23 pm

Huge pics are effing huge. Shrink them down, for the love of Jebus.

B · Post by B » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:24 pm

One of those pis is 1000x1000, and it doesn't even show.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:26 pm

Anyway, lets get back on topic instead of letting this degrade into yet another dub vs. original argument.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:28 pm

You know, I used to be one of those Dragon Ball haters myself. I would bash and flame the series to Hell despite having never watched it.

I was a terrible human being.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:33 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:You know, I used to be one of those Dragon Ball haters myself. I would bash and flame the series to Hell despite having never watched it.

I was a terrible human being.

Same here. Back in 2000-2001, I hated it for no good reason even though the only episodes I watched were a couple of Ocean dub episodes on Kids WB. Hell, when I got a DBZ bookbag for 3rd grade, I threw a fit (it was the only non-girly bag that they had left). But then when I watched episode 181 on accident and continued watching the episode out of curiosity as to why everyone had blonde hair as opposed to black, I was instantly hooked

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:47 pm

I think a lot of people judge the Dragon Ball series as a whole based solely on the original dub of Dragon Ball Z. The "hardcore" approach with a huge emphasis on fighting and action--while in reality the show was like a 40-60 split in terms of fighting and dialogue--gives a bad impression towards the ADD-inflicted populous that is the newer generations of kids today.

Truth be told, I think the real heart of Dragon Ball was not in Dragon Ball Z, but in the original series. You can almost tell that it had more heart; more feeling; more magic pumped into it than its proceeding cousins. It had character and personality development, a fun, enchanting story, and rich and delightful characters. Once Dragon Ball started airing and becoming more popular, this slowly seemed to fade away, as if it was an entirely different show.

The focus on ridiculous fighting was a lot more appealing when I was a kid than it is now. Don't get me wrong--I still love Dragon Ball Z--but I do agree to some extent that it was overblown way past a reasonable level of tolerance in terms of how things were drawn out. I can deal with this, and a lot of us can deal with this, but it seems a lot more people these days want more action than anything else with very little filler and quick progression. I always thought this is what made the Dragon Ball Z movies better--there was no manga to sync airing with, so it could establish the plot and get through it as fast as possible without padding it out.

I thnk everybody from the old generation where Toonami aired the Dragon Ball Z dub knows what Dragon Ball is and recalls it with fond memory. These days, though, Toonami doesn't even exist anymore. I think this has led to quite a few of the secondhand, negative accounts that a lot of people have about the series these days; not many people have actually seen the series proper from start to finish. Word of mouth takes precedence over firsthand accounts.

I grew up with the dub, and it honestly wasn't that bad. If people have a problem with the dub specifically, though, I think they'd be surprised after watching the original Japanese footage; the amount of things that are so wildly changed will blow their mind. I know this is nothing new when it comes to localization, but for me it's like I'm reliving the series all over again. It's pretty crazy! If the con you went to only had it in English, I think that says a lot about the capacity that a majority of general anime enthusiasts have seen it in.

So as for its reception? I'd say it's fairly mixed. Remember, though--a vocal minority is not necessarily a majority. I'd go as far as to say that the series is probably very well received across the board, dub or otherwise. I'm kind of excited for the new HD remake of Dragon Ball Z because it has a very good chance of reviving general interest in the series. Hopefully it can only get better from this point on.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:19 pm

For awhile, I lost interest in Dragonball Z due to anime such as Gundam Wing, Trigun, Outlaw Star, Cowboy Bebop, and a slew of high-quality theatrical anime movies making their way over here. I never went as far as to say that Dragonball wasn't real anime, but I did lose interest for awhile and here's why:

It wasn't that Dragonball Z was vastly inferior to all of what I listed. To me, Dragonball Z is in a completely different category than what I listed above. It'd be like comparing Legend of Zelda to Street Fighter. I just can't do that. However, the production value of the dubs of those series (which, at the time, I had no access to the Japanese version) were just freakin' amazing compared to Dragonball Z! Real Japanese BGM in every episode (not just a few movies), dialogue that isn't full of corny jokes that were obviously thrown in by the American writers, and other such things made those other anime stand out more and took my interest away from Dragonball Z for awhile and it wasn't until the American release of the first Budokai game that I got back into it.

If Dragonball Z's dub were like the first three movies as done by Ocean when I was watching it on TV, I probably wouldn't have lost interest when other, more accurately-localized anime started coming to America.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:39 pm

"What doesn't kill him makes him stronger. ... Like a saiyan."
"*Groans*"
"No, that's only after 'RAAAAAGAGHGAAA!!!!' For thirty minutes."

Blah.
I was thinking earlier today about "Room of Spirit and Time" vs "Hyperbolic Time Chamber".
What's the obvious difference between the two?
One sounds more fantasy-ish, and the other sounds more SciFi-ish.
This was in the Cell arc, where SciFi was the theme of the enemies (And the time machine / deactivation remote and the like were SciFi-ness on the part of the heroes), and yet...
... Doesn't the term "Room of Spirit and Time", certainly in light of other things involving Piccolo and such in that arc (Oooh, that also got lost in the dub

), not make this a briliant contrast to the Jinzouningen-related challenges?

It's changes like that--that aren't harmless on their own, but undercut nuance that might have done something for people like... eh, what Kendamu mentioned--I mean, we'd still have gotten some of the stupidder crap, but little depth tidbits like that kinda change the whole tone, and I think it's more that tone alteration that screws over DB in North America.
And so help me, if anyone comes in and says "They dropped foreign concepts for the culturally zenophobic American audience", I'll... umm... Groan to myself in irritation?

(Just so we're clear, I'm talking about things that alter the tone of the show at large, not things like... say... the alteration of the Saiyan culture "honor Vs genecidal maniac" thing. I'm talking more "Three-eyed Cowboy" and "We've been preparing for you my friend" Vs "This will be my last Kikoho..." and "You can't reduce ki to a science and hope to beat the king of demons".).

[edit] Hte? Hte? I MUST DESTROY ALL 'HTE'S!!!!

[/edit]

B · Post by B » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:53 pm

Hyperbolic Time Chamber wouldn't be so bad if they ever pronounced "hyperbolic" correctly. Really, it's the same damn thing. A chamber is basically a room. Time is still in there. At a glance, it does look slightly hyperbolic.

Of course, in the end, that's not what it's called in the original, and will incite people. |:

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:05 pm

caejones wrote:... Doesn't the term "Room of Spirit and Time", certainly in light of other things involving Piccolo and such in that arc (Oooh, that also got lost in the dub ), not make this a briliant contrast to the Jinzouningen-related challenges?

That makes me mad too. There's the whole internal conflict in Piccolo that's entirely missing in the Dub. The part where Krillin says something about Piccolo being his friend and piccolo getting mad and proclaiming that he is the Demon King. That was such an interesting part of his character that FUNimation just completely ignored. ughh... The Cell Arc is the worst in the dub, imo. At least in the Freeza and Buu arc there any parts of the plot missing.

There's characterization missing, which makes the story much more rich, and with the dub, some of that is missing. That's why some people get the wrong opinion of the series through the dub.
But I find it hard to believe that devout subbies continuously judge DBZ on the dub, that seems a little hypocritical.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:05 pm

B wrote:Hyperbolic Time Chamber wouldn't be so bad if they ever pronounced "hyperbolic" correctly. Really, it's the same damn thing. A chamber is basically a room. Time is still in there. At a glance, it does look slightly hyperbolic.

Of course, in the end, that's not what it's called in the original, and will incite people. |:

I kinda think you completely missed my point.
I don't mind the term Hyperbolic Time Chamber. It's way the heck easier to say than "room of spirit and time" (Though I kinda like RoSaT simply because Jaws pronounces it "Rho Sah Tee" ).
I was just using it as an example of where the culmination of relatively harmless alterations gives a completely different picture of the show. Not enough to ruin it, or anything... just enough to... make... a... mess? (Because I'm not entirely sure how to say what I'm thinking without implying something worse than I'm actually saying.

).

Let's use a different example. Say, Piccolo talking to #20 after pwning him. It's badass, and it works, and...
... completely misses the point of the original line (Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't want to wind up like Criss Saros and the "Raditz's ship" thing ... while still being insignificant at large.

), which had something to do with emphasizing that Gero's take on energy (Which is very similar to the dub's alterations at times) won't work on the Z-gang (... I... can I call them "Earth's special forces" instead?

).
Basically, by changing a couple harmless things like the two I've mentioned, we lose an entire layer--shallow though it may be--that sort of fumbles the tone of the show.
I'm taking way too long to say all this, which I guess makes it sound like a hard-core fanboy "Raaaa depth!" BS argument. I'm just sayin'... minor things kinda add up to part of what we have going on here.
(And the ridiculous silence-fillers and corny jokes, of course, but eh.

)

[edit] Ur, or what the guy above me whose name I already forgot how to spell said.

.
Dragonball is not king of depth. It's a wacky Martial Arts / comedy parody epic springboarding off of Dr. Slump. And yet we _still_ lose some of the more fascinating elements. That takes talent on the part of the script-writers, that does. XD [/edit]

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:00 pm

Will say I've noticed that DB and Jump-based titles are looked at differently than some non-Jump-based titles. For example, I've noticed that about all of the anger towards 4Kids were due to the Jump-based series aside from Ultimate Muscle (Ultimate Muscle did better in the States than it did in Japan). Asked some buddies why that was, and one said it was because the Jump-based series were the most popular. Another said because the other series were kids' shows no one over 14 watched.

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:58 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Forgotten Hero wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:I don't get it. Why's the dub so popular? It's not even Dragon Ball. Stop polluting the Internet with this garbage about the fake Dragon Ball.
What?
The English dub loses everything that made Dragon Ball Dragon Ball. It retains nothing but the character names and the general plotline. The dialogue is almost never an accurate translation, character personalities are warped, the music is replaced with a soundtrack vastly inferior, and so many nuances are lost not because they're impossible to translate, but because Funimation doesn't care about them. Who cares about things which add to the series' charm or artistic integrity if they don't involve Super Saiyans and hardcore martial arts action?

The Japanese version of Dragon Ball is a charming, well-made show with a production team that truly cared about making a high-quality product. The English dub is a complete abomination churned out by people who don't care about the series itself, wishing only to make a profit. That is why the English version of Dragon Ball will forever be the fake one, because if your experience is limited to the bastardized English Dragon Ball, you know virtually nothing about the series.

There is no "fake" dragon ball. People that bash the dub are just as bad as people who bash DBZ in general. I understand why you dislike it, but saying it's not the real Dragon Ball is purely ignorant, because IT IS DRAGON BALL. There is no other Dragon Ball out there. It's just got a script which isn't accurate to the Japanese script. Believe me, I would absolutely love it if Funimation actually did the American script according to the Japanese, that would be completely amazing, and I would love it to death.

But it is what it is. It's Dragon Ball, made for an American audience. Maybe another company should have gotten the license to it, we would all probably be happy if that were the case, but it's not. The dub is what it is, and you should at least respect it for what it is, and not hate on it and trash talk it, because that's Dragon Ball you're trash talking. If you don't like it, don't watch it, and don't worry about it. Dragon Ball available in a multitude of other languages.