Gohan vs. Dabura

[Godo]

He could go SSj 2 before that. Though, it makes no sense for someone to be flickering in-between transformations like that. I've never seen such a thing in the series.

Goku did that when he got cut by Freeza's disc (normal to SSJ) and Gohan did that when Cell returned (SSJ to SSJ2).

If it said somewhere that they're universally applicable(which I'm pretty sure it didn't), then...yes. Unless you believe SSj 3 Goku is 400x stronger than base Goku, or that SSj 2 kid Gohan only got a 2x increase in power.

[/quote]
Gohan wasn't going all out with his power, and to get a 2x increase would be a great difference. Let's say that Gohan's maximum power was 150 and Cell's maximum was 200. With the SSJ2 he would easily defeat Cell with a power of 300, just as Goku had not much trouble fighting Freeza's 120,000,000 with his 150,000,000.

And SSJ3 Goku being 400x stronger than base Goku isn't impossible, especially when you follow the theory that they had to reach higher transformations, since their base power wasn't getting much greater (alas, not the "base Saiya-jins are stronger than Freeza" camp).

That still begs the question as to why the lightning looks different than normal, as well.

How does it look different? They look the same for me.

[Savage68]

Goku did that when he got cut by Freeza's disc (normal to SSJ) and Gohan did that when Cell returned (SSJ to SSJ2).

That's not flickering; That's reverting and then ascending once more. Flickering is continuously going back-and-forth between forms multiple times in a short amount of time. Like someone 'flickering' a light on and off.

Gohan wasn't going all out with his power, and to get a 2x increase would be a great difference. Let's say that Gohan's maximum power was 150 and Cell's maximum was 200. With the SSJ2 he would easily defeat Cell with a power of 300, just as Goku had not much trouble fighting Freeza's 120,000,000 with his 150,000,000.

That says it all, even though it's an understatement. He goes from being weaker than a suppressed Perfect Cell to above and beyond anything a fully powered-up Perfect Cell can do, causing him insane amounts of damage in a mere two hits. It couldn't have been only a 2x increase in power.

And SSJ3 Goku being 400x stronger than base Goku isn't impossible, especially when you follow the theory that they had to reach higher transformations, since their base power wasn't getting much greater (alas, not the "base Saiya-jins are stronger than Freeza" camp).

I know it isn't impossible. Neither is SSj 3 Goku being 65x stronger than base, or him being 1,000x stronger than base. I'm saying it's unlikely and baseless(in the actual story, which has preeminenced over any guide).

How does it look different? They look the same for me.

You're right, I was looking at it a weird way.

[Son_Gohan]

I always used to think that the Gohan that transformed during Videl's match was a SSJ1, but now that I look at it again, he looks like a SSJ2 to me...

Maybe Majin Vegeta could've already been a SSJ2 the first time, but just not at full power. I think it makes more sense for him to be powering up in that one panel, than actually changing to a whole nother another form, and changing back to SSJ1 instantly. Like when Goku just entered the SSJ2 form against Yakon there was no bolts there either.

So maybe the bolts have to do with how strong their SSJ2 forms are, and are only added when they are at full power.

[Dayspring]

Here's a thought: we missed most of the fight between the two because it was pre-empted by the budokai's Battle Royale. What if that's when he was SSJ2, they fought until they lost a lot of energy, and Gohan could only maintain regular SSJ at the point we see things?

[Kaboom]

Here's a thought: we missed most of the fight between the two because it was pre-empted by the budokai's Battle Royale. What if that's when he was SSJ2, they fought until they lost a lot of energy, and Gohan could only maintain regular SSJ at the point we see things?

I'd say that'd be possible... if Gohan were losing when we came into it. But the fight was more or less even. If Dabra were so strong as to wear out a Super Saiyan 2, then Gohan probably wouldn't have been doing as well as he was at SSj1.

[hleV]

I really doubt if Toriyama would have not shown Gohan transforming again, LOL.

[fktizle]

IIRC, it says Gohan only used SSj 2 once in his 'Growing Up' guide or something, but claims Dabura fought SSj 2 Gohan.

In any case, I've never felt that Toriyama just got amnesia overnight and forgot how to draw a SSj 2 aura. However nonsensical it may be, he intended for Gohan to be SSj against Dabura and Buu for a reason.

Your right, he sure didn't forget with Goku, or Vegeta, he made sure to cover those marks. I think Gohan was trying to prove something to Vegeta and his dad. He was trying not to look weak. I think this because they treated the whole ship battles as a joke. Heck, they even treated Majin Buu as a joke.

Maybe Gohan didn't feel it was necessary.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Here's a thought: we missed most of the fight between the two because it was pre-empted by the budokai's Battle Royale. What if that's when he was SSJ2, they fought until they lost a lot of energy, and Gohan could only maintain regular SSJ at the point we see things?

That may explain the Dabra scenario...but not the Majin Boo one.

[Xyex]

A real head scratcher whether Gohan could'nt or wouldn't go SSJ2 and finish off Dabura knowing how much was at stake.

It's not really a head scratcher at all that he wouldn't transform First, the last time he used SSJ2 in battle he got his father killed. Not something he wants to repeat. Second, Goku and Vegeta are there. That means there really isn't anything actually at stake. If he can't win they can. Third, he wanted an actual fight out of it and not just a quick win.

and he also fought well against Dabura even though he was a lot weaker than in Cell Games saga.

He's never said to be a lot weaker, just that he's not as strong now as he was then. And yes, a weakened SSJ Gohan could still take someone of Perfect Cell's level. SSJ Gohan was already stronger than Full Power Perfect Cell at the Cell Games. Example:

Cell Games
SSJ Goku (Suppresed) - 250
SSJ Goku (Full Power) - 500
SSJ Gohan (Full Power) - 600
SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power) - 1,200
Perfect Cell (Suppresed) - 275
Perfect Cell (Full Power) - 580

Buu Saga
SSJ Gohan (Full Power) - 550
Dabura (Full Power) - 580

Note that Akira Toriyama drawn sparks when Vegetto transformed.

Those aren't the same. That's a power burst, not a persistant aura element.

The inconsistency came in when a SSj 1 had lightning in their aura(besides Vegetto)...

That alone proves that Toriyama's art style isn't as consistent as some people are purporting.

An SSJ manifesting sparks around their aura is no different than Nappa or Piccolo manifesting sparks around their aura. Vegeta manifesting sparks in one panel as an SSJ1 is no different than the sparks that Vegetto showed when he transformed.

...You substantiated this by using Nappa as an example , and Super Vegetto still had lightning in his aura, regardless of circumstances. It doesn't matter if it was for an entire chapter or 1/4th of a panel.

SSj 1s had lightning in their aura, for no apparent reason, other than magical properties. So unless you want to explain how Nappa's focused energy is somehow equitable to Majin Vegeta's, which is somehow equitable to Vegetto's, it proves that SSj auras aren't so set in stone.

Youre entire arguement revolves around ignoring facts.

Why would anyone believe in everything else that is written in Daizenshuu or SEG?

SEG stated that SSJ2 is a 2x multiplier of SSJ and SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier of SSJ2. Maybe that was a mistake too?
Toriyama approved it, didn't he? He approved that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura. Except the sparks, it completely makes sense.

People don't believe everything else in the SEG or Daizenshuu. In fact, people disagree with a lot of stuff found there-in. SSJ2 Gohan is but the tip of the iceberg.

As for Toriyama's approval, I've not yet seen anything to state that he read over all the information and confirmed it all, fact for fact (which would be impossible anyway, with his memory). Toriyama's approval of the Daizenshuu and SEG was as simple as "Oh, you want to make guidebooks? Well, alright, go ahead." and that's about it. I highly doubt he reviewed them for accuracy since he likely couldn't emember 9/10th of the information found in them himself.

or that SSj 2 kid Gohan only got a 2x increase in power.

SSJ2 at 2x makes perfect sense.

Though SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games would have appeared stronger than 2x his former SSJ level because of his anger.

[hleV]

SSJ Gohan had no chance of winning against Perfect Cell the way he was back then (unless, of course, he would have used his hidden potential, but that simply made him to ascend). Note that Perfect Cell only shown his full power when Gohan was already SSJ2.

When Gohan in World Tournament ascended to SSJ2, Vegeta stated that Gohan was a lot weaker than in Cell Games saga. But when he fought Dabura, noone even thought about why Gohan wasn't SSJ2 (in fact, he was).

Goku didn't have sparks when he transformed against Yakon. Yes, it was a single panel, but it's possible that the sparks don't necessary appear if a Saiyan isn't using much of his power. Same goes for Gohan against Dabura/Fat Buu.

[Rocketman]

SSJ Gohan had no chance of winning against Perfect Cell the way he was back then (unless, of course, he would have used his hidden potential, but that simply made him to ascend). Note that Perfect Cell only shown his full power when Gohan was already SSJ2.

When Gohan in World Tournament ascended to SSJ2, Vegeta stated that Gohan was a lot weaker than in Cell Games saga. But when he fought Dabura, noone even thought about why Gohan wasn't SSJ2 (in fact, he was).

Goku didn't have sparks when he transformed against Yakon. Yes, it was a single panel, but it's possible that the sparks don't necessary appear if a Saiyan isn't using much of his power. Same goes for Gohan against Dabura/Fat Buu.

Well, that just shifts the question to "Why does Gohan use his full power to stand around at the tournament but not to fight Dabura or try to blow up Buu?"

[Xyex]

SSJ Gohan had no chance of winning against Perfect Cell the way he was back then (unless, of course, he would have used his hidden potential, but that simply made him to ascend). Note that Perfect Cell only shown his full power when Gohan was already SSJ2.

Your opinion. Mine is different.

When Gohan in World Tournament ascended to SSJ2, Vegeta stated that Gohan was a lot weaker than in Cell Games saga. But when he fought Dabura, noone even thought about why Gohan wasn't SSJ2 (in fact, he was).

Vegeta said that Gohan was stronger 7 years ago, not that he was a lot weaker now. And Gohan was an SSJ against Dabura.

Goku didn't have sparks when he transformed against Yakon. Yes, it was a single panel, but it's possible that the sparks don't necessary appear if a Saiyan isn't using much of his power. Same goes for Gohan against Dabura/Fat Buu.

Why use SSJ2 at all if you're not going to full power?

Gohan = SSJ vs. Dabura.

[hleV]

Well, that just shifts the question to "Why does Gohan use his full power to stand around at the tournament but not to fight Dabura or try to blow up Buu?"

Kibito didn't restore all of Gohan's power after it's been sucked out.

[Rocketman]

Well, that just shifts the question to "Why does Gohan use his full power to stand around at the tournament but not to fight Dabura or try to blow up Buu?"

Kibito didn't restore all of Gohan's power after it's been sucked out.

Gohan ate a Senzu Bean before he went to blow up Buu.

[Dayspring]

Going back to the 'for some reason can't get mad enough anymore' idea, maybe he simply never could:

When he goes SSJ2 against Kibito, he spends a long amount of time powering up in what seems to be the manga's version of 'half SSJ' (SSJ aura and eye color change), to the point where the audience is booing them for standing still so damn long. When Gohan finally does go SSJ, he ends up skipping straight to SSJ2.

Why does this matter? Because if Gohan can't control his rage, then to go SSJ2 at will, it establishes that he'd need to stop and power up a lot first in order to become strong enough to transform. It then pertains to what we see later in the manga about him getting angry because, as we've seen since his battle with Radditz, Gohan's shortcut to mega-power is to simply get pissed.

Cell Games: Gohan is super powerful but not at full strength because he's secretly unwilling to fight (think of his SSJ power up as 70-90%). He gets pissed, which is his way of unleashing his potential, throwing him at 100%, which is more than beyond the SSJ2 threshold. He powers down, but when Cell returns, retransforms SSJ2. This is because he's super powerful can power up to the threshhold point easily.

Budokai: Gohan, having not trained for 7 years, now needs to take forever to power up to the SSJ2 threshold, something he can do while Kibito waits for him, but not while in the heat of battle with Dabura. Since he has no reason to be angry here, he can't make himself pissed enough to use his potential as a shortcut.

This should feasably explain the 'for some reason,' but ignores the Daizenshuu comment.

[Son_Gohan]

Gohan ate a Senzu Bean before he went to blow up Buu.

He was probably using his full power there, but just lacked the rage boost.

[Kaboom]

Going back to the 'for some reason can't get mad enough anymore' idea, maybe he simply never could...
...This should feasably explain the 'for some reason,' but ignores the Daizenshuu comment.

So long-story-short, it was a matter of time? It takes him more time and effort to transform to go Super Saiyan 2 after slacking off, and perhaps Dabra might not have given him that opportunity.

And I don't think anyone should have to worry about the obviously-erroneous Daizenshuu entry.

[Son_Gohan]

So long-story-short, it was a matter of time? It takes him more time and effort to transform to go Super Saiyan 2 after slacking off, and perhaps Dabra might not have given him that opportunity.

That still doesn't explain when he was facing Buu's egg, he had all the time he could've needed there.

[Kaboom]

That still doesn't explain when he was facing Buu's egg, he had all the time he could've needed there.

Not really. That took him, Kaioshin, and even Bobbidi and Dabra by surprise.

[Son_Gohan]

Not really. That took him, Kaioshin, and even Bobbidi and Dabra by surprise.

I may have to go back and read it again but I swear when Gohan powers up at that time, he states that he's at full power.

What else could he have meant by that?