Buu Saga Info

[Darkprince410]

How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.

Exactly. Even if you low ball Gotenks to that level, that still puts Gotenks ahead.

Since set multipliers are established. SSJ= 50x base, SSj2= 2x SSJ and SSJ3= 4x SSJ2. That means the base state is multiplied by these numbers.

If Goku were stronger then Gotenks as SSJ3, then Goku would be above SSJ Gotenks as an SSJ. If SSJ Gotenks was weaker then SSJ Goku, then Goku would never have Gotenks fight Boo period. It took SSJ3 Goku to fight Fat Boo. Going by the official multipliers and Goku's logic, SSJ3 Gotenks can't be weaker then SSJ3 Goku or Goku's whole "If the boys fuse they'll definitely win" is completely wrong since Goku knew the boys were only capable of SSJ. So if the above were true, I guess Goku is secretly hates Goten and Trunks and wants them to die. And that is totally what Goku's like.

In short going by multipliers, if SSJ Gotenks is below SSJ Goku's level, why would Goku bother with Gotenks at all?

Didn't Kaboom state that you should assume that because something was a guess, it's automatically correct - all we know for sure is that Gotenks is weaker than vegeta until after the training? No matter what theory you want to conjure, it cannot contradict that and be correct.

Besides, as it's been pointed out, why would Goku, with intimate knowledge of how powerful Gotenks should be as a Super Saiya-jin, and Piccolo, who sees full well how powerful Ssj Gotenks is, both entertain the idea that Ssj Gotenks can beat Fat Buu if he, as a Super Saiya-jin, is weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta.

If SSJ3 Goku were above SSJ3 Gotenks, then SSJ Goku is above SSJ Gotenks. If Gotenks were that weak, he would not be considered. Goku would also need to get his brain checked as well if he thought sending boys to fight for him who aren't stronger then his SSJ form was a good idea.

Goku wasn't there to send the boys anyhow, so how can you blame him?

And there is no multipliers given for Fusion - we just know (and see) it makes people stronger. It's a gamble, one that was wrong on Goku's part.

You're assuming there's one concrete interpretation of that Daizenshuu entry, when as we've all shown, there isn't. There's nothing in the manga suggesting that Ssj Gotenks is below Ssj Goku, while there's a lot supporting that he's at the very least in the Ssj2 range. For you to believe that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj Gotenks, you're in turn believing that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, which we know isn't possible.

[Undertaker]

I also like how you ignore me after freeze said I am pakl furthermore proves what I have thought.

Would you please stop going on about that? Why does it matter what he may or may not call himself on some other forum?

You just don't understand. If this is the guy I think he is so we are wasting or time. Trust me I know what I am talking about. He ignores me because he knows who I am. He does it because I proved him wrong many times before

[VegettoEX]

No - you don't seem to understand. It doesn't matter who is who elsewhere, and if you drag your petty drama from other places to this forum, you will be removed from the conversation. This has already been explained to you, and it won't be explained again.

[Hitiro]

Can I ask a serious question, in an attempt to cut back on the "PSSSSAWWW. INCONCEIVABLE THAT YOU WOULD THINK SOMETHING!" responses...?

Why, exactly, do you expect there to be linear, consistent, absolute logic at this point in the series that every single one of you can come to a complete consensus on? We know that Toriyama's feelings on "strength" changed quite often, we know he was on his third and most lenient editor, and we know he was swapping up ideas constantly and having a good time doing so as he headed toward the finish line.

Yes, it's fun to look for logic and try to put things together as a fun puzzle, but I don't see why on Earth you need to let it get so out of hand that you start getting rude and tossing out insults at each others' intelligence over it. It's embarrassing to you as the people saying it, and it's embarrassing to me as someone who runs the place and has to step in and babysit every time a strength discussion comes up.

I'm sorry, but I simply see no reason why logically Piccolo wouldn't say anything of SSJ Gotenks was lower than any other SSJ at that time. He would have definitely said something. Amuro Ray keeps beating around the bush and he has yet to provide a logical reason to why Piccolo didn't call Gotenks out on his ki level if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. The only thing he's come up with is that Piccolo is being a derpy tool and not reading Gotenks ki right. I find it hard to believe that Piccolo could be so far off the mark with Gotenks ki if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. We know that SSJ2 Vegeta couldn't beat Fat Boo and if we were to take SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta as a fact then SSJ2 Vegeta is over twice as strong as SSJ Gotenks. Again, its hard to believe Piccolo would ignore such a gap as this.

[Undertaker]

This Goku fanboy-ism is completely nonsensical.

The simple fact of the matter is SSjin Gotenks (pre RoSaT) was already at least comparable to SSjin3 Goku so that just blows your whole argument out of the water.

Also if you want to start arguing that the Daizenshuu is canon then here you go;

Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
"Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy."

"Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes."

Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
MIGHTIEST WARRIOR
First Appears: Vol. 41

"In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."
That is a flat out Mightiest Warrior Gohan>>Pure blooded Saiyan, and thus Mightiest Warrior Gohan>>SSjin3 Goku statement.

Not only that, it appears as if this is implying that Gotenks was the next strongest fighter after Gohan.
Furthermore evidence from the Daizenshuu suggesting Gotenks>Goku;

Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
Like Gohan and Goten, being half Saiyan and half Earthling, his dormant power is high.

Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
"As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan.
This all implies that the half-breeds have more hidden power/dormant ability than the pure bloods."

Now this is how the Daizenshuu describes SSjin3;

Daizenshuu 7- Dragonball Encyclopedia. Special Attack Dictionary
"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits."
So once again that means at the very least SSjin3 Gotenks>SSjin3 Goku.

Gohan>Gotenks>>Goku is uncontradicted manga fact which is backed up by the Daizenshuu and statements/feats in the manga.

Simple as that.

[BejitaSama]

You're assuming there's one concrete interpretation of that Daizenshuu entry, when as we've all shown, there isn't. There's nothing in the manga suggesting that Ssj Gotenks is below Ssj Goku, while there's a lot supporting that he's at the very least in the Ssj2 range. For you to believe that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj Gotenks, you're in turn believing that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, which we know isn't possible.

No man, it's you who are assuming that in all of this, there is only one explication, yours. And all i would like is that you guys assuming that no, there is other explication. You can stay on your position, there is no problem. But you can't continue to make as if my arguments are nothing, and my opinion don't worth.

You are basing on multipliers to prove your theory. I'm basing on Buu's forms.
The fact is that both Kid Buu and Super Buu are stated to be much stronger than Fat Buu. , and whatevere Goku or Piccolo thought the power they would have, the fact is that they need SSJ3 to beat Super Buu, and that Goku need SSJ3 to face Kid Buu. That implies that we can compare Goku SSJ3 to Gotenks SSJ3. They are in the same range of power.

So, if you think that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, that could make Goku stronger than Gotenks.
If you think Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu, Gotenks will be the stronger.

I personnaly think that Kib Buu is the stronger, so...

EDIT : please, do something for Undertaker, he's just horrible, and not bringing 1€ to the debate, contrary to someone like

"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits."
So once again that means at the very least SSjin3 Gotenks>SSjin3 Goku.

No. Because if Gohan has a higher dormant power than Goku, the SSJ3 increases Goku's strength beyond its limits. So, there it's an equality.
Someone has a better potential, but the other have a technique that makes him stronger than its potential.

[Undertaker]

No - you don't seem to understand. It doesn't matter who is who elsewhere, and if you drag your petty drama from other places to this forum, you will be removed from the conversation. This has already been explained to you, and it won't be explained again.

I only mentioned it because I don't to waste my time with some biased fellow who can't be reasoned with. I never thought it's something bad to save time to all of those users.

[Undertaker]

I also like how you ignore me after freeze said I am pakl furthermore proves what I have thought.

Would you please stop going on about that? Why does it matter what he may or may not call himself on some other forum?

Just ignore him.

Why ignoring me when you are the one who ignores all the evidence and acts like a fool? Again, you repeat the same excuses I have addressed above so that shows you are biased. End of story, Gohan >> Gotenks >>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku is in the Manga. Get over it

[Undertaker]

You're assuming there's one concrete interpretation of that Daizenshuu entry, when as we've all shown, there isn't. There's nothing in the manga suggesting that Ssj Gotenks is below Ssj Goku, while there's a lot supporting that he's at the very least in the Ssj2 range. For you to believe that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj Gotenks, you're in turn believing that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, which we know isn't possible.

No man, it's you who are assuming that in all of this, there is only one explication, yours. And all i would like is that you guys assuming that no, there is other explication. You can stay on your position, there is no problem. But you can't continue to make as if my arguments are nothing, and my opinion don't worth.

You are basing on multipliers to prove your theory. I'm basing on Buu's forms.
The fact is that both Kid Buu and Super Buu are stated to be much stronger than Fat Buu. , and whatevere Goku or Piccolo thought the power they would have, the fact is that they need SSJ3 to beat Super Buu, and that Goku need SSJ3 to face Kid Buu. That implies that we can compare Goku SSJ3 to Gotenks SSJ3. They are in the same range of power.

So, if you think that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, that could make Goku stronger than Gotenks.
If you think Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu, Gotenks will be the stronger.

I personnaly think that Kib Buu is the stronger, so...

EDIT : please, do something for Undertaker, he's just horrible, and not bringing 1€ to the debate, contrary to someone like

I just gave multiple quotes from the Daiz and has a full information which debunks all of those excuses and says the Manga facts so how the heck I gave nothing to this discussion?

Gohan's limits >>>>>>> Goku's limits and his potential was drawn beyond his limts while SSJ3 draws the potential to its limits

Mystic Gohan beyond his limits >> Gohan's limits >> Goku's limits.

What didn't you get?

[BejitaSama]

Can you have some respect for people who disagree with you ? You have to stop it right now, it's just impossible.
You are not debating, you are insulting. So no, you don't make the thing forwarding. And nothing in your argumentation can break what I pointed above, except my personal feeling on Kid Buu > Super Buu.

[dbzfan7]

Lets just hear him out whether you agree or not (I know it will be hard for some). This thread will be closed if everything keeps up like this. I'm sorry if this counts as mini moding.

[Darkprince410]

I also like how you ignore me after freeze said I am pakl furthermore proves what I have thought.

Would you please stop going on about that? Why does it matter what he may or may not call himself on some other forum?

You just don't understand. If this is the guy I think he is so we are wasting or time. Trust me I know what I am talking about. He ignores me because he knows who I am. He does it because I proved him wrong many times before

If that's the way that Amuro goes about things, then that's how he goes about things. It doesn't matter what he does on other sites, since it isn't this one. Regardless of whether or not he's the individual you believe he is, you should approach him on here the way you would any other person on here.

[BejitaSama]

Lets just hear him out whether you agree or not (I know it will be hard for some). This thread will be closed if everything keeps up like this. I'm sorry if this counts as mini moding.

Who are you talking about ?

[Undertaker]

Can you have some respect for people who disagree with you ? You have to stop it right now, it's just impossible.
You are not debating, you are insulting. So no, you don't make the thing forwarding.

I edited my post above. Check it out. You say it because you don't understand.... If you would know what I am talking about you would ignore all of this stupidity. This guy is not ignoring me for no reason. He ignored me at the moment he knew who I am since he knows that I know who he is. Anyway, I would not bother anymore. I did give something good here. I have provided evidence. How dare you say I never did??

Darkprince410: He does the same thing here as well which is why I explained it.

[dbzfan7]

If that's the way that Amuro goes about things, then that's how he goes about things. It doesn't matter what he does on other sites, since it isn't this one. Regardless of whether or not he's the individual you believe he is, you should approach him on here the way you would any other person on here.

I can see where he coming from. On youtube I blocked a user with that name because I got tired with aruing with him. Not saying Amuro is the same. Just that I see where Undertaker is coming from.

Also be careful because Undertaker has minions of darkness that may come with torches to signify the phenom is coming. I haven't watched wrestling in forever

Who are you talking about ?

Amuro. I don't agree with him. But I want to hear his side of the argument. He says SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku. So I want to hear him out and let him explain why Goku and Piccolo would let someone at SSJ tier fight Fat Boo, when you need SSJ3 tier power to fight Fat Boo.

[BejitaSama]

Okay, if it's an evidence, I let you in your world where you are right, always right, Sir! Thank you for bringing me light !
I'm sorry but I'm very disappointed of the ambiance here. With a such good website, I thought the community would be more adult than that.

[Undertaker]

If that's the way that Amuro goes about things, then that's how he goes about things. It doesn't matter what he does on other sites, since it isn't this one. Regardless of whether or not he's the individual you believe he is, you should approach him on here the way you would any other person on here.

I can see where he coming from. On youtube I blocked a user with that name because I got tired with aruing with him. Not saying Amuro is the same. Just that I see where Undertaker is coming from.

Also be careful because Undertaker has minions of darkness that may come with torches to signify the phenom is coming. I haven't watched wrestling in forever

Who are you talking about ?

Amuro. I don't agree with him. But I want to hear his side of the argument. He says SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku. So I want to hear him out and let him explain why Goku and Piccolo would let someone at SSJ tier fight Fat Boo, when you need SSJ3 tier power to fight Fat Boo.

What are you talking about?

[BejitaSama]

But I want to hear his side of the argument. He says SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku. So I want to hear him out and let him explain why Goku and Piccolo would let someone at SSJ tier fight Fat Boo, when you need SSJ3 tier power to fight Fat Boo.

I can respond for him :

Gotenks SSJ is expected to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but in the fact, he never fought him. He fought a stronger version of Buu (as Goku), and needed SSJ3. As Goku.

[Undertaker]

But I want to hear his side of the argument. He says SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku. So I want to hear him out and let him explain why Goku and Piccolo would let someone at SSJ tier fight Fat Boo, when you need SSJ3 tier power to fight Fat Boo.

I can respond for him :

Gotenks SSJ is expected to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but in the fact, he never fought him. He thought a stronger version of Buu (as Goku), and needed SSJ3. As Goku.

SSJ Gotenks was sensed from the Kaioshin planet where only SSJ3 tier and above can be sensed. This is getting annoying.

[Kamiccolo9]

Okay, if it's an evidence, I let you in your world where you are right, always right, Sir! Thank you for bringing me light !
I'm sorry but I'm very disappointed of the ambiance here. With a such good website, I thought the community would be more adult than that.

For the most part, the community here is great. This particular topic seems to bring out the worst in a lot of people for some reason though. You seem to be pretty new here (I'm a fairly recent member as well), so I hope you don't mind me offering a suggestion. If you haven't already, try participating on some of the other topics, as well as this one. I know I've learned a lot about the series since I came here, no reason to limit yourself to just one area of the fandom. Again, that's just my suggestion.