Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

[ABED]

re: The original score not fitting with the dub... I could see how that opinion might crop up with all the added lines of dialog.

Not just the added lines but also the changed lines such as "Maybe it's my diet, I eat wholesome foods..." "Your diet, huh? Well, you'll be eating my fist next!"

[Kakarot88]

The Japanese music works (despite the baby raddled sounds and over use of trumpets) in Japanese because it was made to go with the dialogue spoken in Japanese.

Faulconer's music was made for English dialogue and yes the added statements make it work better than the akward Pauses you get if you watch it in english but with Japanese music.

But beyond all that, the Japanese language does not easily translate directly to English and the music is the same way. The nuances that work in Japanese cannot work in English because there is a translational barrier. The program itself uses music to convey emotion. Word play is integral to the series. However, unless you speak Japamese that song "oh messiah..." Or whatever it is called when Gohan goes beyond a super saiyan is lost on the viewer because they are just words. As much as many hate the "I can feel it slipping" line,there is nothing in the song to convey that message to an english speaking audience and therefore fails to be compelling.

Epic in Japanese. Lame in English.

Same reason Vegeta going Super Saiyan in English does not feel as compelling with the Japanese score as it does in Japanese because the music was not made for the English language.

Faulconer's music carried a great deal of the show. You may not like it but it does not change the facts that Kai did not and will not do as well as Z, despite a better script and better original voice actor talent, and I think that has a great deal to do with Funimation trying to force Japanese music into a dub for purist fans where it just does not fit.

If nothing else Faulconer's score, whether you love or hate it...if you listen to it out of context is great work out music. Try it that shit is raw.

If you like Kai as is (new music and new Gohan) I respect your opinion, and I think the lack of original music to fit the English language and forcing the score fit for a japanese voice cast cheapens the experience rather than making a unique product.

Someone mentioned changing the Star Wars music and I would say that the Star Wars music is used to convey a feeling, if in another language that feeling could only be conveyed or better conveyed with a different score than the original and that in fact the original did not fit the dub then that different score should be used. Being a purist for the sake of being a purist where the language is already altered makes less than no sense. Change the language and change the music in order to convey the message to push yourself even further beyond. That's what I think.

[VegettoEX]

Faulconer's music carried a great deal of the show. You may not like it but it does not change the facts that Kai did not and will not do as well as Z, despite a better script and better original voice actor talent, and I think that has a great deal to do with Funimation trying to force Japanese music into a dub for purist fans where it just does not fit.

I think that's hogwash. What about every single other anime that's ever gotten popular with an accurate script and the original background music? Look at FUNimation's own catalog for things like Fullmetal Alchemist, a show that became an absolute phenomenon and its American popularity no doubt contributed to it even getting a total re-do of a second series... which was also hugely successful and kept the original background music and accurate script.

[ABED]

I think people put too much emphasis on lyrics. The strength of the song isn't its lyrics, it's its emotion. I think any audience can understand that on a gut emotional level.

I wish people would stop using ad hoc logic to defend the faulconer score or explain why Kai didn't do as well as Z. Kai wasn't as successful as Z in Japan either.

Someone mentioned changing the Star Wars music and I would say that the Star Wars music is used to convey a feeling, if in another language that feeling could only be conveyed or better conveyed with a different score than the original and that in fact the original did not fit the dub then that different score should be used.

John Williams score fits the tone of the film regardless of the language. A different language doesn't make it a different show. Different characterizations and dialog does.

[dbzfan7]

I think people put too much emphasis on lyrics. The strength of the song isn't its lyrics, it's its emotion. I think any audience can understand that on a gut emotional level.

I wish people would stop using ad hoc logic to defend the faulconer score or explain why Kai didn't do as well as Z. Kai wasn't as successful as Z in Japan either.

Someone mentioned changing the Star Wars music and I would say that the Star Wars music is used to convey a feeling, if in another language that feeling could only be conveyed or better conveyed with a different score than the original and that in fact the original did not fit the dub then that different score should be used.

John Williams score fits the tone of the film regardless of the language. A different language doesn't make it a different show. Different characterizations and dialog does.

Likely because if you have seen Z, you have seen Kai.

[Kakarot88]

I'm going by numbers here so if its not the music then kids prefer delayed fights and akward scripts as to the more direct Kai? I cannot speak as to many other anime as I pretty much just watch premium cable or dragon ball on repeat lol but I have seen and heard enough to know what sounds good. The music used in Kai sounds dated and less intense than Faulconer's beats.

Why do you think Kai is not registering with the younger audiences? Afterall it's got a new script, new music, new Gohan, and new Freeza...shouldn't all of that be making it do vastly better?

If you don't think it's the actors and script then that only leaves the music.

[VegettoEX]

It's a ton of reasons, the biggest being that Toonami was immediately after school. That's why every single show in that entire block for the history of its run became huge cultural hits.

It's also the same reason why DBZ did better on Toonami than it did in syndication, even when it was literally the exact same content (original 1996 dub with Ocean Studios cast and Shuki Levy music) on repeats over and over. Shit ain't gonna do well hidden away at 6 am .

[ABED]

You can't compare the numbers. It's not apples and apples. There are more channels than ever and more ways to ingest media these days. Look at the ratings for network TV. The number one show 10 years ago was probably Friends, which never dipped below 20 million viewers. Networks would kill for those numbers.

Don't give me the "it sounds dated" argument. "Mondo cool" was dated but the writers deemed that the sort of line kids in the late 90s wanted.

Who watches a show for the score? When I talked to kids about any show at school, I never recall talking about the score.

What was more likely, kids rushing home to listen to a score, or watch kick ass action?

[dbzfan7]

Faulconer's music carried a great deal of the show. You may not like it but it does not change the facts that Kai did not and will not do as well as Z, despite a better script and better original voice actor talent, and I think that has a great deal to do with Funimation trying to force Japanese music into a dub for purist fans where it just does not fit.

I think that's hogwash. What about every single other anime that's ever gotten popular with an accurate script and the original background music? Look at FUNimation's own catalog for things like Fullmetal Alchemist, a show that became an absolute phenomenon and its American popularity no doubt contributed to it even getting a total re-do of a second series... which was also hugely successful and kept the original background music and accurate script.

Yeah I got to agree with you Vegetto. And add Faulconer is not DBZ, sure his music I enjoy sometimes, but his music is so one note. Then when he goes for something different it usually sucks.

You can't compare the numbers. It's not apples and apples. There are more channels than ever and more ways to ingest media these days. Look at the ratings for network TV. The number one show 10 years ago was probably Friends, which never dipped below 20 million viewers. Networks would kill for those numbers.

Don't give me the "it sounds dated" argument. "Mondo cool" was dated but the writers deemed that the sort of line kids in the late 90s wanted.

Who watches a show for the score? When I talked to kids about any show at school, I never recall talking about the score.

What was more likely, kids rushing home to listen to a score, or watch kick ass action?

We usually talked about the awesome fights when I was a kid. We never talked about story or music. It's probably why kids were drawn in as they have never seen fights like dbz before.

[ABED]

I did talk about story, but yeah, we usually discussed the kickass fights. Scores are important for mood and emotion but I don't think anyone does or doesn't tune in because of the music.

[Kakarot88]

You can't compare the numbers. It's not apples and apples. There are more channels than ever and more ways to ingest media these days. Look at the ratings for network TV. The number one show 10 years ago was probably Friends, which never dipped below 20 million viewers. Networks would kill for those numbers.

Don't give me the "it sounds dated" argument. "Mondo cool" was dated but the writers deemed that the sort of line kids in the late 90s wanted.

Who watches a show for the score? When I talked to kids about any show at school, I never recall talking about the score.

What was more likely, kids rushing home to listen to a score, or watch kick ass action?

I did and so did my friends lol! I literally remember seeing Vegeta go Super Saiyan I wanna say on a Thursday or Friday and having to wait all weekend to catch up with my friends at school and talk about how epic the piano sounded. True story. I used to record the shows and watch them that way and my friends and I all got together that same week and rewatched that scene comparing it to my tape of Goku doing the same and were like Vegetas music is way cooler. Kids or at least me and my friends did do talk about music and make fun of older sounding stuff.

Rock the dragon, although not faulconer, was discussed endlessly back in the day. I'm telling you music makes a difference.

[dbzfan7]

I did talk about story, but yeah, we usually discussed the kickass fights. Scores are important for mood and emotion but I don't think anyone does or doesn't tune in because of the music.

I rarely mentioned story. We never talked about music and even when we got a little older we still didn't. It was all about the fights.

Also I personally hate Rock the Dragon. It's only slightly better then the Canadian opening I had to deal with. Any idiot could come up lyrics like that. Even the horrible Digirap has more to it.

[VegettoEX]

Meanwhile, Gaffer Tape and I were the odd ones sitting around watching shows as kids talking about the background music and how weird it was when Leonardo spoke with Raphael's voice.

[ABED]

You can't compare the numbers. It's not apples and apples. There are more channels than ever and more ways to ingest media these days. Look at the ratings for network TV. The number one show 10 years ago was probably Friends, which never dipped below 20 million viewers. Networks would kill for those numbers.

Don't give me the "it sounds dated" argument. "Mondo cool" was dated but the writers deemed that the sort of line kids in the late 90s wanted.

Who watches a show for the score? When I talked to kids about any show at school, I never recall talking about the score.

What was more likely, kids rushing home to listen to a score, or watch kick ass action?

I did and so did my friends lol! I literally remember seeing Vegeta go Super Saiyan I wanna say on a Thursday or Friday and having to wait all weekend to catch up with my friends at school and talk about how epic the piano sounded. True story. I used to record the shows and watch them that way and my friends and I all got together that same week and rewatched that scene comparing it to my tape of Goku doing the same and were like Vegetas music is way cooler. Kids or at least me and my friends did do talk about music and make fun of older sounding stuff.

Rock the dragon, although not faulconer, was discussed endlessly back in the day. I'm telling you music makes a difference.

In terms of conveying mood, sure, but it doesn't move the needle in terms of viewers. Of course the main theme is going to be discussed, that doesn't count. People remember and talk about the theme song to Friends, Welcome Back Cotter, and Happy Days. How many people talk about those scores?

You may very well be the first person who ever said they talked a lot about the score with their friends.

Are you really implying that kids don't care about acting, action, dialog, or animation, and what they really care about is background music?

[Ryuji-Otogi]

The Japanese music works (despite the baby raddled sounds and over use of trumpets) in Japanese because it was made to go with the dialogue spoken in Japanese.

Faulconer's music was made for English dialogue and yes the added statements make it work better than the akward Pauses you get if you watch it in english but with Japanese music.

But beyond all that, the Japanese language does not easily translate directly to English and the music is the same way. The nuances that work in Japanese cannot work in English because there is a translational barrier. The program itself uses music to convey emotion. Word play is integral to the series. However, unless you speak Japamese that song "oh messiah..." Or whatever it is called when Gohan goes beyond a super saiyan is lost on the viewer because they are just words. As much as many hate the "I can feel it slipping" line,there is nothing in the song to convey that message to an english speaking audience and therefore fails to be compelling.

Epic in Japanese. Lame in English.

Same reason Vegeta going Super Saiyan in English does not feel as compelling with the Japanese score as it does in Japanese because the music was not made for the English language.

Faulconer's music carried a great deal of the show. You may not like it but it does not change the facts that Kai did not and will not do as well as Z, despite a better script and better original voice actor talent, and I think that has a great deal to do with Funimation trying to force Japanese music into a dub for purist fans where it just does not fit.

If nothing else Faulconer's score, whether you love or hate it...if you listen to it out of context is great work out music. Try it that shit is raw.

If you like Kai as is (new music and new Gohan) I respect your opinion, and I think the lack of original music to fit the English language and forcing the score fit for a japanese voice cast cheapens the experience rather than making a unique product.

Someone mentioned changing the Star Wars music and I would say that the Star Wars music is used to convey a feeling, if in another language that feeling could only be conveyed or better conveyed with a different score than the original and that in fact the original did not fit the dub then that different score should be used. Being a purist for the sake of being a purist where the language is already altered makes less than no sense. Change the language and change the music in order to convey the message to push yourself even further beyond. That's what I think.

I never thought wanting a dub to retain its music score made one a purist. That's just the standard in the anime industry today. No one changes the music anymore, save for companies like 4K!Ds. It seems to me you're a DBZ fan and not an anime fan, which is fine. But because of that it seems you don't appreciate the genre the way other people do and abuse the word 'purist' because of it.

Have you ever watched One Piece? (Japanese or FUNi-dub). FullMetal Alchemist? Naruto? Eureka Seven? The background music in those shows are phenomenal. If those scores were replaced then I would be outraged not because I just stubbornly want everything to be kept the same as in the Japanese version, but because those music scores are awesome and there is no reason to change them.

For some reason you keep attaching 'Japanese' to the word 'music' for the original score in any anime adaptation. In most cases, the only music that is inherently Japanese in an anime is its opening and closing sequences--and only because more often than not they're actually sung in Japanese. But those songs are dubbed in Dragon Ball, GT, Kai, and muted in DBZ so you don't have even have to listen to that. When I watch Bleach, One Piece, or FullMetal Alchemist I don't hear 'Japanese music'. I just hear music. The same sort of music you might hear anywhere else.

In shows like Naruto, Rurouni Kenshin, and Inu-Yasha the BGM might be 'Japanese'...but these are shows about ninjas, Samurai, and demon-fighting warriors in Feudal Japan. If you hear something from Dragon Ball that strikes you as particularly Japanese or martial artsy, well...look at what the show is about.

Kikuchi's score was retained in almost every adaptation of DBZ around the world. Its music isn't 'Japanese-only'. That's just a silly argument you're using to defend your opinion of Faulconer's music. I don't have to take away from Faulconer to appreciate Kikuchi.

[Kakarot88]

Not saying Rock the dragon is good, my point is kids talked about it. There are still to this day DBZ vids with Linkin Park music [sic] and why is that? Because to a US child that sounds bad ass not trumpets and raddles. The US comic book is not subtle they straight up slap you in the face "faster than a speeding bullet" the music is the same. DBZ on TOONAMI was raw so it got attention. I'm over these franchise music debates already cuz it's you either hate it or you love it and people seem to hate Faulconer so much so that they create whole forums to bash him. Funny enough without the success of the series with his music y'all would most likely not have an English dub of Kai. But to each his own. I just find it funny that people find hand made music for a specific Japanese voice actor group equally applicable to an American cast rather than at a minimum saying neither fit. If you dislike the hand made made Faulconer then what is it about the original score not intended for the English language and not fitting the English language that makes its use ok? Cuz it's the original?

[VegettoEX]

I'm not really following your points in this latest post.

People are still making DBZ AMVs with Linkin Park because DBZ is still relevant and Linkin Park is still relevant. People put together things they like.

As I said before, DBZ took off on Toonami primarily because it aired immediately after school as kids were getting home. That's why the exact same content that was only partially popular when it first aired in 1996 at 6 am suddenly became a massive phenomenon two years later when it ran as-is on Toonami at 5 pm. Remember, it was these repeats of seasons one and two that got you a third season. Faulconer was still a non-existent twinkle in your eye at that point.

[dbzfan7]

Not saying Rock the dragon is good, my point is kids talked about it. There are still to this day DBZ vids with Linkin Park music [sic] and why is that? Because to a US child that sounds bad ass not trumpets and raddles. The US comic book is not subtle they straight up slap you in the face "faster than a speeding bullet" the music is the same. DBZ on TOONAMI was raw so it got attention. I'm over these franchise music debates already cuz it's you either hate it or you love it and people seem to hate Faulconer so much so that they create whole forums to bash him. Funny enough without the success of the series with his music y'all would most likely not have an English dub of Kai. But to each his own. I just find it funny that people find hand made music for a specific Japanese voice actor group equally applicable to an American cast rather than at a minimum saying neither fit. If you dislike the hand made made Faulconer then what is it about the original score not intended for the English language and not fitting the English language that makes its use ok? Cuz it's the original?

I highly doubt it was faulconer's music that made dbz succesful. What did was the fight scenes we had never seen before in the cartoons we watched. Maybe you talked about bgm, but when I was a kid we never even gave a shit about it or stories. It could have had no music and we would not care as the fight scenes are what grabbed our attention. All Faulconer did was enhance the experience, not make the experience. I had the Ocean dub music most of the time and I was still attached to Dragon Ball Z.

[Gaffer Tape]

Meanwhile, Gaffer Tape and I were the odd ones sitting around watching shows as kids talking about the background music and how weird it was when Leonardo spoke with Raphael's voice.

Haha, indeed. I always paid attention to all those weird animation quirks and read the credits and learned what actor played what character, even when I was a little kid.

It's weird. I'm on the side of the people who are arguing the music shouldn't have been replaced, but it seems all the pro-Kikuchi people are arguing that no one cared about music; therefore, it wouldn't have mattered if it had been changed. I mean, I agree with that up to a point. That is, whatever score was used wouldn't have broken the show. Of course, I use that more to say that the terrible Faulconer tracks weren't enough to kill DBZ. But I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that no one, no child, thinks about the music. It might even be on a subconscious level, but the score certainly can have an impact. Or, alternatively, fond memories for the subject itself can create nostalgia for the music, so that even a bad score or bad acting can hold a place in one's heart. I feel a slight twinge of nostalgia for the terrible season 3 acting and music, even though I hated it at the time! But I was there in 1999 and was excited for new DBZ.

The fact of the matter is, while I have always liked DBZ for its action, it's always been the least interesting thing about it to me. And from watching mainstream "blockbusters" of the past several years, I find I have a hard time tolerating balls to the wall mindless action (a la the new Star Trek films or Transformers). Without a good story or engaging characters to link me to it, the action just gets BORING!

[ABED]

Again, it's a theme song, of course it stands out. I remember the he-man theme, but can't remember a single bit of BGM.

Batman the animated series had a full orchestral score. That's not badass, but it is the Dark Knight, who is definitely a badass who punches evil in its stupid face.

By the way, the DBZ theme song didn't appear during the toonami run that I recall. Toonami had their own intros.

The reason I say that the Japanese music fit the dub is because I think it did. It fit the tone of the show. I don't see why English clashes with Japanese music. It's just music. It wouldn't fit if the dialog was god awful and the tone of the series felt different, but the dub is very faithful.

I don't know why some of you are saying kids don't care about story. I did, but maybe that's not a great barometer. The animation and the action caught my attention but the story, characters and humor kept me watching.

Gaffer Tape, don't compare the new Treks with Transformers. The new Treks have story, heart, good performances and are well made. Transformers appeal to the lowest common denominator.