"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[Kid Buu]

Goku-wank is really annoying though. Like when Tenshinhan lost to Drum only for Goku to beat him in one hit; stuff like that used to put me off.

[Saiga]

Although I agree that Goku's not much better than anyone else, I'd say only his final Zenkai was bullshit. It's got nothing to do with his training, him being proactive, or anything like that. It's just a Zenkai. No attitude justifies being handed something like that for free.

For the Super God Water, I'd say it's fair. Sort of foreshadowed, and one of the smallest dormant power upgrades we ever actually see. And it seems like he survived that because he was already strong from his training.

His gravity training is a little extreme, because it takes place over the course of one week, but he was combining extreme gravity training with Zenkais and in the process burned through several Senzu which would cost them later. So I think that's fair.

@Kid Buu Surprisingly, I always actually liked that. I dislike him doing the same thing to Mummy, but that was pointless, while here it seems to have a lot more point since immediately prior to that he'd be in the same situation Tenshinhan was.

[Kid Buu]

I just think that battle with Freeza on Namek is poorly executed in terms of power level. Jumping from half a million to allegedly 120 million; the hell? Not to mention the battle just seemed pointless until Freeza's second match with Vegeta begun.

[RandomGuy96]

No the math doesn't make sense. If being a few power level points apart makes all the difference, being several thousand times stronger should mean the one with the bigger number has no trouble with the weaker opponent.

Mr. Magic water as you call him trains harder than just about anyone in the show. About the only one who arguably trains harder is Vegeta.

Actually, it does. What are you talking about? When has someone several thousands times stronger than someone else had trouble with them? If you're talking about actual points (as in, Goku was 24,000 and Vegeta was 18,000, so Goku should have killed him in one hit), then that's the wrong way to go about it. It comes to ratios and percentages; 240,000 vs 180,000 has the same gap as 24,000 vs 18,000.

Vegeta trains harder. So does Tenshinhan, who literally does nothing in his free time except farm and train. Piccolo is in the same boat. It didn't help any of them avoid being trash to Goku after his random, end of arc power up (magic water, absurd zenkai, improved ROSAT training).

[Kid Buu]

Freeza was at least over twenty times Goku's strength in the first half of that fight, and after the Kaioken x20 part he was angrily attacking Goku who was already weakened. Yet hes not bursting into a million pieces or anything.

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza was at least over twenty times Goku's strength in the first half of that fight, and during the Genki Dama part he was angrily attacking Goku who was already weakened. Yet hes not bursting into a million pieces or anything.

Given his personality, I doubt he was going full force on Goku there.

Ehhhh... we`ll hes Goku though... the story was already set up like that from Dragonball. He has the protagonist-Boost. Its like when Yugi always gets the right card at his 100Lp cap.

What's all of this "Goku is the protagonist of Z" stuff? He's really not.

Saiyan Saga: Right after Gohan is introduced, Goku is killed off and the arc starts focusing on Gohan's development. Gohan is the one who ends up dealing the final blow to Vegeta (after Goku fails miserably on his own), and has much more screen time than Goku.

Freeza Saga: The majority of the Namek arc focuses on Gohan, Vegeta, and Krillin, while Goku just swoops in twice to beat the bad guy. The first time he does this, he screws up and has to have Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta save him, and the second time, he ALSO screws up, and Freeza ends up being finally defeated by Trunks, not him.

Cell Saga: He doesn't do anything when King Cold shows up, Trunks has to take care of that. When the androids finally arrive, he's easily defeated by the absolute weakest villain in the entire arc, and has to get saved by Vegeta. He's out of commission for the majority of the arc, until the very end... where he gets toyed with and killed by Cell, leaving Gohan to save the day.

Buu Saga: he shows up briefly at the beginning of the arc, which had until then been focusing on Gohan. He screws up everything AGAIN, leaving Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo to clean up the mess. The only reason Gohan didn't kill Buu the same way he killed Cell was because Toriyama decided at the last minute to shove Goku back into the spot light. Even then, you could say that Vegeta was the real hero of the final battle, not Goku.

[ABED]

It really didn't. Goku just randomly gets more from the same power-ups than anyone else (e.g. his zenkai was absurdly stronger than anyone else's for no reason, he easily masters kaio-ken x20 when the god who invented it + Piccolo couldn't even master x2) because he's ostensibly the protagonist. Gohan never got fifty times stronger just from getting angry once.

It was established from the word "go" that Goku was a wunderkind. Goku didn't easily master Kaio-ken x20. He had to train under intense gravity for several days and got to x10. He used x20 as an emergency measure and used up most of the energy he had left. Goku is a better fighter than Piccolo, that was well established, and spent longer on Kaio's planet.

Goku-wank is really annoying though. Like when Tenshinhan lost to Drum only for Goku to beat him in one hit; stuff like that used to put me off.

I don't think it's "wank". There's an argument to be made for Goku being the one to beat him easily or Tenshinhan.

He trained for one week. How does that justify him suddenly spiking in power, when he had not gotten such absurd gains at any other time in the series? It's pretty much just here where he gets over ten times stronger in one week. Vegeta, who could kick his ass without kaio-ken back on Earth, now doesn't even possess a third of Goku's strength thanks to his bullshit week in the gravity chamber.

It's 100x gravity. Gravity training speeds up gains, and he used several senzu to come back from injuries.

How do you "earn" rage?

It was earned storywise. Super Saiyan was well set up narratively, and Goku lost his best friend. We knew what Kuririn meant to him so his grief didn't seem out of place, whereas Gohan's seemed out of place for 16's "death".

He never got his power drawn out to the limit. He just got some of it unlocked, in much the same way Goku did. Also, logically his dormant power would grow proportionally with his regular power as he trained (which he does in the saiyan arc, android arc, and Cell Saga). The only one you could argue was meant to be final was the Ultimate power up from the god of gods that made him several times stronger than Goku- and that was more of a transformation rather than a straight unlock in the vein of Guru's power up or the god water. In other words, more like randomly becoming a Super Saiyan than randomly getting a x33 zenkai.

Grand Elder awakens sleeping power, the idea that he doesn't awaken it all is basically absurd. I don't see how his dormant power would grow proportionally. That's never stated. And you play fast and loose with the word "randomly". Super Saiyan wasn't random, it was built up and established well before.

Vegeta trains harder. So does Tenshinhan, who literally does nothing in his free time except farm and train. Piccolo is in the same boat. It didn't help any of them avoid being trash to Goku after his random, end of arc power up (magic water, absurd zenkai, improved ROSAT training).

Goku doesn't do anything but train either. How much of Tenshinhan's training do we see? Was there anything that compares to Goku's level of training? It's also not how hard you train, it's how smart you train. Vegeta did the same RST training, but Goku was smarter than him in how he went about it. For one, he made use of his partner, plus he made Super Saiyan his natural state.

It comes to ratios and percentages;

Why? Why does that make more sense than absolutes? Goku had an inordinately hard time against Nappa. Yes, I know, Nappa didn't land a punch, but Goku was twice as strong, and that big a gap would've meant a one hit KO without the Kaio-ken. This is why I don't like power levels. It's an attempt to provide an objective scale but it doesn't make sense when you scrutinize it.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I don't know if I can really get behind that. Why should other characters be criticized for their power ups but not Gokuu? Even if he is the protagonist, he still inhabits the same laws of nature everyone else does and should therefor be under the same level of scrutiny.

I don`t agree with that ethic either and give it no excuse to be the inherent advantage if it becomes as obvious as Ultimate Gohan`s... but I only let it slide with (Z) Goku because it isnt as bad as a debuting character who discredits everyone else just because they`re the new guy. Thats much harder to swallow. At the very least Goku works for what he gets before the protag-shield kicks in. Its not as if he really gets anything because hes the lead, most of his advantages came from him just having the most efficient and balanced training methods: and he explains this.

I just think that battle with Freeza on Namek is poorly executed in terms of power level. Jumping from half a million to allegedly 120 million; the hell?

Its still in debate for me wether Freeza was actually stronger than Goku was entirely anyway, even as a SSJ. I think he was until the Spirit Bomb weakened him and his 100% power`s instability from it was what gave Goku the advantage. 5th Form Freeza would stomp SSJ Namek Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

It was established from the word "go" that Goku was a wunderkind. Goku didn't easily master Kaio-ken x20. He had to train under intense gravity for several days and got to x10. He used x20 as an emergency measure and used up most of the energy he had left. Goku is a better fighter than Piccolo, that was well established, and spent longer on Kaio's planet.

So him being a wunderkind justifies him mastering a technique that the god who invented it couldn't. In just a year. Then improving it from x4 to x20 in one week. And this is better than Gohan's rage boosts because...?

It's 100x gravity. Gravity training speeds up gains, and he used several senzu to come back from injuries.

If that's the case, then why did training for three years in much more intensive gravity not even making Vegeta five times stronger, when it made Goku 10 times stronger in one week?

It was earned storywise. Super Saiyan was well set up narratively, and Goku lost his best friend. We knew what Kuririn meant to him so his grief didn't seem out of place, whereas Gohan's seemed out of place for 16's "death".

I believe that Vegeta and Freeza referenced it a few times. That's pretty much it; it being mentioned does not justify Goku being the one to get it just from getting angry once.

The rage at 16's death was out of place. He should've been more angry about his friends and family being beaten to death.

Grand Elder awakens sleeping power, the idea that he doesn't awaken it all is basically absurd.

Insult me all you want, that's the canon.

I don't see how his dormant power would grow proportionally. That's never stated.

Why wouldn't it? We know from the guidebooks that all saiyans have a a proportional amount of dormant power, including Goku. It's 400 times more than their base power. Gohan, as a half saiyan, was unique just because his was proportionally more than even that.

And you play fast and loose with the word "randomly". Super Saiyan wasn't random, it was built up and established well before.

Gohan's dormant power wasn't?

Why? Why does that make more sense than absolutes? Goku had an inordinately hard time against Nappa. Yes, I know, Nappa didn't land a punch, but Goku was twice as strong, and that big a gap would've meant a one hit KO without the Kaio-ken. This is why I don't like power levels. It's an attempt to provide an objective scale but it doesn't make sense when you scrutinize it.

There's nothing complex here; Nappa was much weaker than Goku, so Goku was able to easily crush him while Nappa couldn't lay a finger on Goku in turn. Him not being able to one-shot Nappa is down to Nappa being seven feet of pure muscle on top of his high ki level (physical attributes do seem to matter even when ki is factored, given that even a Goku who couldn't use ki attacks in DB was able to easily beat those who could), and also because Goku never real used a "kill shot".

It makes much more sense than absolutes because of what the guidebooks tell us. And also because Vegeta didn't explode upon being lightly tapped by kaio-ken x3 Goku.

Its still in debate for me wether Freeza was actually stronger than Goku was entirely anyway, even as a SSJ. I think he was until the Spirit Bomb weakened him and his 100% power`s instability from it was what gave Goku the advantage. 5th Form Freeza would stomp SSJ Namek Goku.

The guidebooks give 100% Freeza's level as 120 million and SS Goku's as 150 million, so Goku was quite a bit stronger than Freeza. That's his absolute max power by the way, as stated by Freeza himself. From you referencing filler and apparently not knowing it wasn't in the manga, I'm gonna guess you're going by the anime here?

[ABED]

One of the things I like about Dragon Ball in general is its main character. He's goofy, naïve, cute, but driven. He's not book smart but he's very smart in his field of interest. He constantly works to better himself.

Insult me all you want

I didn't insult you, and it's not canon, that's your interpretation.

Why wouldn't it? We know from the guidebooks that all saiyans have a a proportional amount of dormant power, including Goku. It's 400 times more than their base power. Gohan, as a half saiyan, was unique just because his was proportionally more than even that.

I don't count the guidebooks, and again with the math... If it's not in the show/manga, I don't count it.

[RandomGuy96]

I didn't insult you, and it's not canon, that's your interpretation.

You said that my ideas were "absurd", and it is obviously canon that Guru's unlock didn't draw out all of Gohan's dormant power.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Tenshinhan, who literally does nothing in his free time except farm and train. Piccolo is in the same boat. It didn't help any of them avoid being trash to Goku after his random, end of arc power up (magic water, absurd zenkai, improved ROSAT training).

Tien shown the most actual martial arts skill among any character in the series besides Piccolo himself but even arguably more in raw technique... yet thats all thrown away because Nappa is just stronger... he was underpowered if anything.

Piccolo`s just handicapped because he has no natural inner-boosting powers.... and was terribly underpowered by the Buu saga. That is what pissed me off. By that saga his anti-Saiyan gimmick was done.

Tien suffers the same thing. Akira never bothers to give him or piccolo any new supernatural powers that would compensate for their lack of Saiyan Zenkai`s and SSJ. Thats where DBZ goes wrong. Way too much Saiyan worship.

Its a shame because Both Tien and Piccolo are peak-expert fighters and peak-super baseline racial strength but are just tossed away in favour of 2 obnoxiously unfunny kids who get SSJ powers by sheer gifts. They skip the whole tail fiasco and dont mature through it at all spoiled with power over 120 million like its nothing.

[Kid Buu]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

[Draken]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

Goku was the final villain of the first two arcs?

[Kid Buu]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

Goku was the final villain of the first two arcs?

He turned into a big ape and tried to kill everyone but lost to Yamcha & Puar the first time, then Jackie Chun the second time.

[RandomGuy96]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

But so was Gohan.

-Landed the final blow on Vegeta.
-Helped distract Freeza while Goku healed.
-Killed Cell.
-The majority of the Genki Dama's power was his.

Also, Goku never directly defeated any of the main villains in Z. Not really.

-Vegeta: defeated by Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe. Killed by Freeza and Buu.
-Freeza: killed by Trunks.
-Cell: killed by Gohan.
-Buu: destroyed by a Genki Dama, using Vegeta's plan and power that wasn't his.

[Draken]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

Goku was the final villain of the first two arcs?

He turned into a big ape and tried to kill everyone but lost to Yamcha & Puar the first time, then Jackie Chun the second time.

Pretty sure the villain of the first arc was Pilaf and gang, and not sure how Goku was the villain against Roshi.

[ABED]

I didn't insult you, and it's not canon, that's your interpretation.

You said that my ideas were "absurd", and it is obviously canon that Guru's unlock didn't draw out all of Gohan's dormant power.

It wasn't a personal attack. I think it's ridiculous that it doesn't draw out all of Gohan's dormant power. That's not what is implied when you read that scene. He doesn't say he can awaken "some" sleeping power, he just says sleeping power.

I think Goku`s more `go-with-the-flow`nature is why he gets better results.

That's one way to put it, but I would put it as Goku knows his optimal training methods after years of experience. He knows when to push himself and when to give his body a rest. Muten Roshi taught him and Kuririn about the value of rest. Plus, Goku doesn't just train hard, he trains smart. It's like real life. You can work hard all you want but it's working smart that gives you results.

My beef with the writing in the later arcs is that the other characters aren't given enough to do. Okay, the Saiyans are the strongest but even in other shows where the leader stops the big bad, the supporting characters get something valuable to do.

[Kid Buu]

Oolong had already stopped Pilaf by the time Oozaru Goku attacked. And how is Oozaru Goku not a villain? He was attacking innocent people and trying to hurt them.

[Kamiccolo9]

Pretty sure the villain of the first arc was Pilaf and gang, and not sure how Goku was the villain against Roshi.

Well, both times Goku did go crazy and almost kill everyone. I can see where he's coming from.