Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U.S.?

[ABED]

I never suggested how you should do it, I'm saying it's inappropriate to parody a series if you love it. Humor makes light of something. If you love it, why say in effect, "this isn't important"?

Because everything has flaws and, sometimes, it's fun to poke fun at them and explore them. Especially something you're really close to that you feel like you have something to say about it.

You aren't playfully pointing out a few flaws. That would be fine if you did, but you created an ENTIRE show that pokes fun at it. You are poking fun of the show as such.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What's funny, is that this exactly what happened in the US. Only, back then, it was an officially licensed attempt to be a legitimate dub, not literally touting itself as a "fan based parody" and to "support the official release" as the prologue to every episode.

The dub had more things lost in translation than actual bastardization, they at the time thought that it would be better recived by American children if they made it more American themed. Though they kept most of the plot and story intact, just inexact. The Abridged series doesnt work to inform people on the original trivial, it arguable does more Americanization than the 90s dub did. The original dub of Sailormoon by Dic to me is far closer to the meaning of an abridged parody to me than a dub because it actually changed the story, characters, personalities, dialogue and was very very loosely trying to tell the story as it was. DBZ's dub only rearranged certain aspects of it to give superhero themes to the elements in their belief of trying to make it more easier to attach to understand for kids.

[KaiserNeko]

I never suggested how you should do it, I'm saying it's inappropriate to parody a series if you love it. Humor makes light of something. If you love it, why say in effect, "this isn't important"?

Because as I said before:

Everything has flaws. Sometimes, it's a lot of fun and can really help you more fully enjoy something you love to explore and exploit those flaws. Furthermore, sometimes you can reinterpret characters and plots in a manner that is both funny and fascinating, especially if you're close enough with the subject material that you can ultimately say something personal about it. Parody/Satire isn't all about mocking and belittling something. It can also be about deconstructing it and exploring it, while still entertaining people and making them laugh. There are plenty of good, heartfelt parodies/satires of entire genres that both mock and praise at the same time. The term "affectionate parody" exists for this exact reason. If you don't enjoy that, that's fine. But a lot of people do.

[Zephyr]

The dub had more things lost in translation than actual bastardization, they at the time thought that it would be better recived by American children if they made it more American themed. Though they kept most of the plot and story intact, just inexact. The Abridged series doesnt work to inform people on the original trivial, it arguable does more Americanization than the 90s dub did. The original dub of Sailormoon by Dic to me is far closer to the meaning of an abridged parody to me than a dub because it actually changed the story, characters, personalities, dialogue and was very very loosely trying to tell the story as it was. DBZ's dub only rearranged certain aspects of it to give superhero themes to the elements in their belief of trying to make it more easier to attach to understand for kids.

I'm aware of the difference in motivation regarding alterations to the story. I was pointing out that the outcome you were speaking of has already happened.

[ABED]

I never suggested how you should do it, I'm saying it's inappropriate to parody a series if you love it. Humor makes light of something. If you love it, why say in effect, "this isn't important"?

Because as I said before:

Everything has flaws. Sometimes, it's a lot of fun and can really help you more fully enjoy something you love to explore and exploit those flaws. Furthermore, sometimes you can reinterpret characters and plots in a manner that is both funny and fascinating, especially if you're close enough with the subject material that you can ultimately say something personal about it. Parody/Satire isn't all about mocking and belittling something. It can also be about deconstructing it and exploring it, while still entertaining people and making them laugh. There are plenty of good, heartfelt parodies/satires of entire genres that both mock and praise at the same time. The term "affectionate parody" exists for this exact reason. If you don't enjoy that, that's fine. But a lot of people do.

The term is a cop out, it's trying to have its cake and eat it too. There's no such thing as an affectionate parody. Granted, there are parodies that are more sardonic in nature, but all humor used to undercut, and a parody is meant to undercut something at its core. You don't celebrate something with a parody. It's function is to mock and criticize. There's no good reason to create a parody show around something you claim to enjoy. I understand poking fun of flaws even on something you enjoy, but there's a gulf of difference between pointing out flaws and building an entire show around it. There are far more appropriate ways to celebrate, deconstruct, and explore things you claim to love than parodying it. I'm quite clear on what you said and mean, I'm simply saying you're logic is flawed. I know it's a taboo too tell people they're wrong, but I don't hold to that. Not everyone can be right.

It's enjoyable to see flaws of the series poked fun at in a humorous light, and see the characters acknowledge said problems in a likewise humorous manner. It shows the series play out in a more self aware way. That's a fun way to experience the series on the side.

As if the show wasn't already self aware. A parody show by its nature undercuts the entire show, not just its flaws, but also its virtues.

[KaiserNeko]

The term is a cop out, it's trying to have its cake and eat it too. There's no such thing as an affectionate parody. Granted, there are parodies that are more sardonic in nature, but all humor used to undercut, and a parody is meant to undercut something at its core. You don't celebrate something with a parody. It's function is to mock and criticize. There's no good reason to create a parody show around something you claim to enjoy. I understand poking fun of flaws even on something you enjoy, but there's a gulf of difference between pointing out flaws and building an entire show around it. There are far more appropriate ways to celebrate, deconstruct, and explore things you claim to love than parodying it. I'm quite clear on what you said and mean, I'm simply saying you're logic is flawed. I know it's a taboo too tell people they're wrong, but I don't hold to that. Not everyone can be right.

As if the show wasn't already self aware. A parody show by its nature undercuts the entire show, not just its flaws, but also its virtues.

Well, if that's how we're playing this: You're wrong. "Affectionate parody" is a term commonly used in movies, television series, books, music, etc. and they all both acknowledge their flaws and their virtues. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it popular amongst creators, critics, and fans.

As contemptible as it may be seen to use this site as a source:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... nateParody

There, you can find a million different, wildly popular affectionate parodies that both celebrate and (sometimes mercilessly) deconstruct things that are enjoyed both by the creator and the fans. If you don't like this manner of parody/satire, fine. But you're a minority; one who is largely less experienced and educated in the field than most of the people who MAKE these.

[Zephyr]

All I'm gathering from your posts is that you don't understand the appeal of parodies and find them to be inherently malicious in nature.

If the parody was trying to pass itself off as a legitimate alternative, or even improvement, to the original product, then I would agree with you. But that's not what this is at all.

If you're so defensive about a fictional universe that you find humorous jabs at its issues to be sacrilege, I'm thinking that we're most certainly on different wavelengths altogether.

[ABED]

The term is a cop out, it's trying to have its cake and eat it too. There's no such thing as an affectionate parody. Granted, there are parodies that are more sardonic in nature, but all humor used to undercut, and a parody is meant to undercut something at its core. You don't celebrate something with a parody. It's function is to mock and criticize. There's no good reason to create a parody show around something you claim to enjoy. I understand poking fun of flaws even on something you enjoy, but there's a gulf of difference between pointing out flaws and building an entire show around it. There are far more appropriate ways to celebrate, deconstruct, and explore things you claim to love than parodying it. I'm quite clear on what you said and mean, I'm simply saying you're logic is flawed. I know it's a taboo too tell people they're wrong, but I don't hold to that. Not everyone can be right.

As if the show wasn't already self aware. A parody show by its nature undercuts the entire show, not just its flaws, but also its virtues.

Well, if that's how we're playing this: You're wrong. "Affectionate parody" is a term commonly used in movies, television series, books, music, etc. and they all both acknowledge their flaws and their virtues. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it popular amongst creators, critics, and fans.

The fact that it's a commonly used term doesn't make it a valid term. Unfortunately, people hold a lot of bad ideas including how to use humor.

All I'm gathering from your posts is that you don't understand the appeal of parodies and find them to be inherently malicious in nature.

If the parody was trying to pass itself off as a legitimate alternative, or even improvement, to the original product, then I would agree with you. But that's not what this is at all.

If you're so defensive about a fictional universe that you find humorous jabs at its issues to be sacrilege, I'm thinking that we're most certainly on different wavelengths altogether.

You could ask me instead of jumping to conclusions. I'm well aware of why they appeal to people. I'm not against parody. It depends on what the object of parody is and its purpose.

This has NOTHING to do with whether something is passing itself off as something else. It has to do with how humor is used. If you are creating an entire show that undercuts a show you claim to love, I find the motives questionable.

I never said humorous jabs against DB were sacrilege. I'm fine with criticisms and making light of flaws, but that's not what this is. It's undercutting the entire show as such.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I think you and I must have very different opinions on how humor works, ABED, because the way I see it is this - if you can't poke a little fun at it, then how insecure of a fan of said thing are you? I'm not accusing you or anyone else of being insecure mind you, but I just know that in my case, the more I love something, the more I love poking fun at it all the time. And that's how I see TFS - they're poking fun at something that they clearly love dearly. It's given them hours of entertainment, likely going back to most if not all of their childhoods, and has allowed them all to become friends over time. I would very much call Abridged an affectionate parody, and nine times out of ten, a pretty hilarious one too. It's a far cry from things like 'Dragonzball Pee Pee', at least in my book.

[Zephyr]

This has NOTHING to do with whether something is passing itself off as something else. It has to do with how humor is used. If you are creating an entire show that undercuts a show you claim to love, I find the motives questionable.

This is where we're in disagreement then. If by undercut you mean "offer goods or services at a lower price than (a competitor)", then a non-profit fan-based parody, that literally says to support the official release, is not undercutting, and what this passes itself off as is absolutely crucial to the discussion. They're not a competitor. They're not trying to offer the same product at a lower price. They're offering a different product; a supplementary product. They're full on advertising it as a different product entirely, and that it is not a substitute for the real thing.

the more I love something, the more I love poking fun at it all the time.

I agree with this fully. Hell, I'll only be able to enjoy a parody of something if I'm already a fan of the thing it's parodying. I appreciate the references that the parody makes, and how it makes a humorous spectacle out of the finer details of what makes the series/show/whatever what it is. And this is absolutely all in good nature. This doesn't make me dislike said thing being parodied, it allows me to appreciate it more through a different lenses or medium. That in and of itself is a positive thing to me.

[RandomGuy96]

Hey man, don't you talk shit about that work of artistic GENIUS.

"There's no escaping banana.... prepare to daaaaaaaah!".

Fucking 10/10.

[Doctor.]

Hey man, don't you talk shit about that work of artistic GENIUS.

"There's no escaping banana.... prepare to daaaaaaaah!".

Fucking 10/10.

I honestly can't see why that got so popular in the first place.

It normally doesn't take much at all to make me laugh. But I didn't even smile once while watching that.

[ABED]

I think you and I must have very different opinions on how humor works, ABED, because the way I see it is this - if you can't poke a little fun at it, then how insecure of a fan of said thing are you? I'm not accusing you or anyone else of being insecure mind you, but I just know that in my case, the more I love something, the more I love poking fun at it all the time. And that's how I see TFS - they're poking fun at something that they clearly love dearly. It's given them hours of entertainment, likely going back to most if not all of their childhoods, and has allowed them all to become friends over time. I would very much call Abridged an affectionate parody, and nine times out of ten, a pretty hilarious one too. It's a far cry from things like 'Dragonzball Pee Pee', at least in my book.

There's also another valid response, brushing it off, or giving a well thought response to criticisms. We have very different philosophical views because you don't poke fun at your values. Yes, there are imperfections in pretty much anything, that's fine, but you don't laugh at something's virtues, it's vicious. It says they don't matter. I fear you don't make that distinction.

Why undercut something you love dearly? I don't see how that's valid. If you love something so much you praise it, cherish it, and talk about it, you don't laugh AT it. If there are bad aspects, you can laugh at them, but you don't laugh at it.

I might be able to look past it if I thought it was funny, but try though I might, I find nothing about it remotely funny. Just a few minutes ago, I looked up a later episode to see if you guys were right. The acting wasn't as bad, still bad, though not as much, and the jokes were as unfunny as ever.

[Zephyr]

I've never felt that TFS was laughing AT Dragon Ball, merely specific aspects. I'm also still not sure how you're intending to apply the term "undercut" to a non-profit parody.

[KaiserNeko]

I'm effectively done with this conversation. I've said all I have to about the idea of "affectionate parodies" and how they're a valid, effective form of comedy, backed up by critics, creators, fans, etc.

ABED, I certainly do not care if you're not a fan of our work. Finding it funny or not, acknowledging the our acting as good or bad. But the unbelievable pretentiousness of saying that I'm wrong about "affectionate parodies" in the face of overwhelming support otherwise... I have nothing man. I have absolutely nothing.

I love DragonBall. I absolutely love working on DBZA. It is far from perfect but it is an opportunity to explore and enjoy DragonBall in a way I've wanted to since I was a child. I'm glad it has it's fans, I'm glad I work with the incredibly talented team by my side.

Thanks for the support, for all of you who are so gracious enough to give it.

[ABED]

I'm effectively done with this conversation. I've said all I have to about the idea of "affectionate parodies" and how they're a valid, effective form of comedy, backed up by critics, creators, fans, etc.

ABED, I certainly do not care if you're not a fan of our work. Finding it funny or not, acknowledging the our acting as good or bad. But the unbelievable pretentiousness of saying that I'm wrong about "affectionate parodies" in the face of overwhelming support otherwise... I have nothing man. I have absolutely nothing.

I love DragonBall. I absolutely love working on DBZA. It is far from perfect but it is an opportunity to explore and enjoy DragonBall in a way I've wanted to since I was a child. I'm glad it has it's fans, I'm glad I work with the incredibly talented team by my side.

Thanks for the support, for all of you who are so gracious enough to give it.

You use other people's opinions as if that's the determining factor of something's validity. So what if other people say something is good. 1 - not all critics agree, and 2 - their word isn't gospel.

I say you're wrong because it's a bad concept. Humor undermines things, and it's great in certain contexts, but not when you blur the distinction between poking fun at virtues and poking fun at flaws. I honestly think DBZA does just that.

I'm also still not sure how you're intending to apply the term "undercut" to a non-profit parody.

Either you are making a joke or you don't know what undercut means in this context. My use of the word has nothing to do with having a lower price.

[KaiserNeko]

You use other people's opinions as if that's the determining factor of something's validity. So what if other people say something is good. 1 - not all critics agree, and 2 - their word isn't gospel.

I say you're wrong because it's a bad concept. Humor undermines things, and it's great in certain contexts, but not when you blur the distinction between poking fun at virtues and poking fun at flaws. I honestly think DBZA does just that.

So you rely on YOUR OWN OPINION, as opposed to the opinions of creators with years more experience and knowledge than you in fields such as filmmaking, writing, music, etc., as well the millions upon millions of fans who appreciate their work, thus proving that it is an effective, if not valid, form of parody.

If their word is not gospel, yours is certainly, by and large, less so.

As I said. Pretentious.

[Zephyr]

or you don't know what undercut means in this context. My use of the word has nothing to do with having a lower price.

That would be the case. What context are you meaning to use the word in? I looked the word up, and it doesn't seem to apply at all.

[ABED]

You use other people's opinions as if that's the determining factor of something's validity. So what if other people say something is good. 1 - not all critics agree, and 2 - their word isn't gospel.

I say you're wrong because it's a bad concept. Humor undermines things, and it's great in certain contexts, but not when you blur the distinction between poking fun at virtues and poking fun at flaws. I honestly think DBZA does just that.

So you rely on YOUR OWN OPINION, as opposed to the opinions of creators with years more experience and knowledge than you in fields such as filmmaking, writing, music, etc., as well the millions upon millions of fans who appreciate their work, thus proving that it is an effective, if not valid, form of parody.

If their word is not gospel, yours is certainly, by and large, less so.

As I said. Pretentious.

No, I've read those opinions but based on their writing, I believe those opinions are based on certain ideas (often wrong ideas, such as humor is an unconditional virtue) and I reject those ideas. I don't accept something just because a lot of people say it's so. I never claimed my word was gospel ever. Come to your own conclusions based on your values and observations, don't just take the consensus. Sometimes it can be right, but it's not right simply because a lot of people agree. I reject their views of humor because of their bad ideas. Your thesis seems to be that because a lot of people accept it, it must be so. Why does a lot of people liking or approving something make it valid?

That would be the case. What context are you meaning to use the word in? I looked the word up, and it doesn't seem to apply at all.

Undercut means "to undermine, to make weaker or less effective".

[Gyt Kaliba]

Hey man, don't you talk shit about that work of artistic GENIUS.

"There's no escaping banana.... prepare to daaaaaaaah!".

Fucking 10/10.

I honestly can't see why that got so popular in the first place.

It normally doesn't take much at all to make me laugh. But I didn't even smile once while watching that.

What Doctor said. I just don't see the appeal of what either of those videos brought to the table.But if others do, that's great then! It just means that it hit the mark with them whereas it didn't for me. And for all I know, whoever made them really did make them with love - but from where I sit and view, I see a lot more that seems vindictive towards the series than anything I've ever seen in Abridged.