Out of Character Moments in the series

[ABED]

Cell has no main goal or agenda other than proving he's the strongest. That's why Gohan said "this fight... it's pointless".
Vegeta wanted the Dragon Balls.
Freeza had his world trade organization and his plans of universe domination.

Cell just wanted to fight for the sake of it, putting the Earth's future at stake for no reason.
Of course trying to stop Cell with words instead of violence was worth a try, even if Gohan knew in his heart it would never work.

Cell was going to kill people if no one could stop him, that's a pretty damn good reason for a fight.

It wasn't worth a try, Gohan had to know that Cell wouldn't listen. If he knew in his heart it would never work, it wasn't worth a try.

[Kamiccolo9]

Cell has no main goal or agenda other than proving he's the strongest. That's why Gohan said "this fight... it's pointless".
Vegeta wanted the Dragon Balls.
Freeza had his world trade organization and his plans of universe domination.

Cell just wanted to fight for the sake of it, putting the Earth's future at stake for no reason.
Of course trying to stop Cell with words instead of violence was worth a try, even if Gohan knew in his heart it would never work.

Cell was going to kill people if no one could stop him, that's a pretty damn good reason for a fight.

It wasn't worth a try, Gohan had to know that Cell wouldn't listen. If he knew in his heart it would never work, it wasn't worth a try.

Personally, I just attribute this to Gohan trying to be like Goku. Goku spared Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza, and although Gohan wasn't there, he would have heard stories about at least the first two from Goku's friends. Plus, with the year he spent alone with Goku, I can see Gohan picking up what he though were some of Goku's traits.

What Gohan didn't understand was the context for hose fights. Goku wanted to spare them because they were great fighters, and he wanted to be able to fight them again. He didn't spare them solely out of his sense of mercy; he had a selfish motive for doing so. Now Gohan has Goku, who has spared all of his foes, telling Gohan to kill Cell. Whether Cell deserves it or not is beside the point; this is just another thing that is confusing Gohan, and he reacts by acting like a kid would: he freezes up.

[ABED]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

[thatdbzguy]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Exactly.

Toriyama's not that good a writer. He's mediocre at best. There's no way he would've thought of all that.

[ABED]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Exactly.

Toriyama's not that good a writer. He's mediocre at best. There's no way he would've thought of all that.

I didn't mean that as a pejorative. Often times putting in so much subtext isn't the sign of a good writer, it's pretentious.

[Kamiccolo9]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Maybe, but I don't like screaming "out of character" (not saying you are) when I feel like I can easily rationalize it. Gohan's idealizing of his father is obvious in the work, both before and after the Cell Games, and it provides an easy enough explanation for me.

[thatdbzguy]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Exactly.

Toriyama's not that good a writer. He's mediocre at best. There's no way he would've thought of all that.

I didn't mean that as a pejorative. Often times putting in so much subtext isn't the sign of a good writer, it's pretentious.

I know you didn't.

[ABED]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Maybe, but I don't like screaming "out of character" (not saying you are) when I feel like I can easily rationalize it. Gohan's idealizing of his father is obvious in the work, both before and after the Cell Games, and it provides an easy enough explanation for me.

I get that, and if I got the sense that Gohan was saying that as a threat to Cell, I would've been okay with it, but that's not how it comes off to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

[thatdbzguy]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Maybe, but I don't like screaming "out of character" (not saying you are) when I feel like I can easily rationalize it. Gohan's idealizing of his father is obvious in the work, both before and after the Cell Games, and it provides an easy enough explanation for me.

Except that explanation was never proven. There was no explanation given at all as to why Gohan acted like he did. He was OOC.

[Kamiccolo9]

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Maybe, but I don't like screaming "out of character" (not saying you are) when I feel like I can easily rationalize it. Gohan's idealizing of his father is obvious in the work, both before and after the Cell Games, and it provides an easy enough explanation for me.

I get that, and if I got the sense that Gohan was saying that as a threat to Cell, I would've been okay with it, but that's not how it comes off to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think anybody is wrong here; we just see things differently.

Kinda off topic, but to help you get where I'm coming from, have you read any of the Matthew Stover Star Wars novels? His writing style is done similar to that post I made a bit back about what Gohan was thinking, and it's similar to how I tend to analyze characters for my classes. I just applied that to Dragon Ball, and came up with what I posted.

That seems like an awful lot of subtext for Toriyama.

Maybe, but I don't like screaming "out of character" (not saying you are) when I feel like I can easily rationalize it. Gohan's idealizing of his father is obvious in the work, both before and after the Cell Games, and it provides an easy enough explanation for me.

Except that explanation was never proven. There was no explanation given at all as to why Gohan acted like he did. He was OOC.

So? It's an explanation that works, and that fits with the series. I don't have to have everything spelled out for me to connect the dots. If you would actually take the effort to formulate your own opinion instead of leeching off somebody else's, you might someday be able to do the same thing.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

So, penguintruth is banned, huh? I really think VegettoEX had it backwards. The problem isn't him, it's thatdbzguy's stubbornness in accepting the people's viewpoints on why Gohan wasn't out of character (and I do agree with the penguintruth's points). And the majority of us got incredibly tired of thedbzguy's way of conducting in this message board-- specifically the repetition of his poor view on the franchise in general. I'm very surprised that this guy hasn't even been warned once.

That being said, I do think it would be better if penguintruth gets a temporary ban, instead of a permanent one. I would like to have him back because I really enjoy reading his posts a lot.

[ErikB]

So, penguintruth is banned, huh? I really think VegettoEX had it backwards. The problem isn't him, it's thatdbzguy's stubbornness in accepting the people's viewpoints on why Gohan wasn't out of character (and I do agree with the penguintruth's points). And the majority of us got incredibly tired of thedbzguy's way of conducting in this message board-- specifically the repetition of his poor view on the franchise in general. I'm very surprised that this guy hasn't even been warned once.

That being said, I do think it would be better if penguintruth gets a temporary ban, instead of a permanent one. I would like to have him back because I really enjoy reading his posts a lot.

I imagine these posts won't last, but did you notice that thatdbzguy never once resorted to personal insults in this discussion whereas penguintruth did?

Maybe Dragon Ball is a little too exhausting to interpret for some of you. I'm not sure how that's humanly possible, as it is rock simple, but there you go.

I won't lie, I do find thatdbzguy's posts tired, but he hasn't done anything that's actually disruptive; stubborn or not, he's been perfectly civil.


And to add to thread content, seeing as I've been lurking this thread for a good while now:
In the King Piccolo saga, Roshi and company move Kame House specifically because they know there's a monster out there, tracking down and murdering martial artists. At their new location, a demon-spawn comes out of the sky and asks them about the Kame House's address. Bulma, super-genius, immediately reacts with, "Hey, that was our old address before we moved here!"
There aren't enough facepalm gifs in the world to express how I felt when that happened. And the fact that nobody slapped her after that, I'd say, qualifies an Out of Human moment for the rest of the present cast.

[Kid Buu]

Is that when Yamcha battles Tambourine? If so, that was filler, but yeah Bulma does seem a lot dumber in Toei-scenes.

[dbzfan7]

Personally, I just attribute this to Gohan trying to be like Goku. Goku spared Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza, and although Gohan wasn't there, he would have heard stories about at least the first two from Goku's friends. Plus, with the year he spent alone with Goku, I can see Gohan picking up what he though were some of Goku's traits.

What Gohan didn't understand was the context for hose fights. Goku wanted to spare them because they were great fighters, and he wanted to be able to fight them again. He didn't spare them solely out of his sense of mercy; he had a selfish motive for doing so. Now Gohan has Goku, who has spared all of his foes, telling Gohan to kill Cell. Whether Cell deserves it or not is beside the point; this is just another thing that is confusing Gohan, and he reacts by acting like a kid would: he freezes up.

I always saw Gohan's talking to Cell as more of him just not wanting to kill. He never really wanted to do that to anyone unless he was really pissed. A lot of kids will try complaining or talking things out even if they think it won't work. I've done that with my dad plenty of times. I know Cell is an extreme case, but I can see Gohan at least trying to talk to Cell and maybe scare him about his hidden power. My only problem is that he just stood there while his friends were being killed. I think we should have seen him constantly try to fight Cell off to save his friends. After numerous attempts, then he'd contemplate why he can't access his hidden power. The answer being that the older and more wiser he got, the harder it is for him to get that angry.

Gohan is all over the place. He sometimes likes to fight, and sometimes he hates fighting. I normally just attribute the hate of fighting to killing your enemies. I'd think he'd enjoy a sparring session with Piccolo and Goku, and if either of them asked him to train he'd probably say sure. However he'd never go out of his way to train as it's more of a minor hobby at best. So would this make Saiyaman the stopper of average crime, and if some super being shows up Saiyaman would wuss out?

[Kamiccolo9]

Personally, I just attribute this to Gohan trying to be like Goku. Goku spared Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza, and although Gohan wasn't there, he would have heard stories about at least the first two from Goku's friends. Plus, with the year he spent alone with Goku, I can see Gohan picking up what he though were some of Goku's traits.

What Gohan didn't understand was the context for hose fights. Goku wanted to spare them because they were great fighters, and he wanted to be able to fight them again. He didn't spare them solely out of his sense of mercy; he had a selfish motive for doing so. Now Gohan has Goku, who has spared all of his foes, telling Gohan to kill Cell. Whether Cell deserves it or not is beside the point; this is just another thing that is confusing Gohan, and he reacts by acting like a kid would: he freezes up.

I always saw Gohan's talking to Cell as more of him just not wanting to kill. He never really wanted to do that to anyone unless he was really pissed. A lot of kids will try complaining or talking things out even if they think it won't work. I've done that with my dad plenty of times. I know Cell is an extreme case, but I can see Gohan at least trying to talk to Cell and maybe scare him about his hidden power. My only problem is that he just stood there while his friends were being killed. I think we should have seen him constantly try to fight Cell off to save his friends. After numerous attempts, then he'd contemplate why he can't access his hidden power. The answer being that the older and more wiser he got, the harder it is for him to get that angry.

Gohan is all over the place. He sometimes likes to fight, and sometimes he hates fighting. I normally just attribute the hate of fighting to killing your enemies. I'd think he'd enjoy a sparring session with Piccolo and Goku, and if either of them asked him to train he'd probably say sure. However he'd never go out of his way to train as it's more of a minor hobby at best. So would this make Saiyaman the stopper of average crime, and if some super being shows up Saiyaman would wuss out?

That works as well. About the Cell Juniors, I offered an answer to that earlier.

Concerning Gohan and the Cell Juniors, I don't see a problem here. All of his friends are being tortured, and he's scared. Sure, he has the power to save them, but what's to say what happens when he goes to save one of them? As soon as Gohan jumps in to save someone, someone else is going to die. He can't save everyone, not at once. He's petrified.

Essentially, Cell is forcing Gohan to choose who lives and who dies. Honestly, if I were in Gohan's position, I think I'd do the same thing.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

So, penguintruth is banned, huh? I really think VegettoEX had it backwards. The problem isn't him, it's thatdbzguy's stubbornness in accepting the people's viewpoints on why Gohan wasn't out of character (and I do agree with the penguintruth's points). And the majority of us got incredibly tired of thedbzguy's way of conducting in this message board-- specifically the repetition of his poor view on the franchise in general. I'm very surprised that this guy hasn't even been warned once.

That being said, I do think it would be better if penguintruth gets a temporary ban, instead of a permanent one. I would like to have him back because I really enjoy reading his posts a lot.

I imagine these posts won't last, but did you notice that thatdbzguy never once resorted to personal insults in this discussion whereas penguintruth did?

Maybe Dragon Ball is a little too exhausting to interpret for some of you. I'm not sure how that's humanly possible, as it is rock simple, but there you go.

I won't lie, I do find thatdbzguy's posts tired, but he hasn't done anything that's actually disruptive; stubborn or not, he's been perfectly civil.

Civil or not, he's has been on the people's nerve for a while now. You can actually see the frustration on penguintruth's posts and I don't blame him. He's just happened to lose a temper a little bit, but I don't find his post an insult at all. If he's starting to frustrate the members of this forum, and to keep on beating on a dead horse, what would you do?

What was so great about this forum when I was new to this was that all the users knew when to drop the subject and move forward. They'd all have great quality discussions in the topics. That obviously is not the case here anymore. I'm being genuine about it. That's how I see it anyway.

[Kamiccolo9]

So, penguintruth is banned, huh? I really think VegettoEX had it backwards. The problem isn't him, it's thatdbzguy's stubbornness in accepting the people's viewpoints on why Gohan wasn't out of character (and I do agree with the penguintruth's points). And the majority of us got incredibly tired of thedbzguy's way of conducting in this message board-- specifically the repetition of his poor view on the franchise in general. I'm very surprised that this guy hasn't even been warned once.

That being said, I do think it would be better if penguintruth gets a temporary ban, instead of a permanent one. I would like to have him back because I really enjoy reading his posts a lot.

I imagine these posts won't last, but did you notice that thatdbzguy never once resorted to personal insults in this discussion whereas penguintruth did?

Maybe Dragon Ball is a little too exhausting to interpret for some of you. I'm not sure how that's humanly possible, as it is rock simple, but there you go.

I won't lie, I do find thatdbzguy's posts tired, but he hasn't done anything that's actually disruptive; stubborn or not, he's been perfectly civil.

Civil or not, he's has been on the people's nerve for a while now. You can actually see the frustration on penguintruth's posts and I don't blame him. He's just happened to lose a temper a little bit, but I don't find his post an insult at all. If he's starting to frustrate the members of this forum, and to keep on beating on a dead horse, what would you do?

If I was a moderator, I'd tell thatdbzguy to knock it off and find something else to discuss, but that's obviously not entirely up for me to decide, as I'm just a regular poster.

Can we stay on topic, please? Complaining about this doesn't help anybody now, and it'll just serve to have more intervention from the staff in this thread. Just let it go.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I'm not complaining. I'm asking a legitimate question, seeing that I'm also a part of this forum as everybody else. When something happened, you want to figure out why a certain scenario happened.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not complaining. I'm asking a legitimate question, seeing that I'm also a part of this forum as everybody else. When something happened, you want to figure out why a certain scenario happened.

EX has already said that the matter is not to be discussed anymore, and it's off-topic for this thread anyway. If you have questions, I would ask that you bring it up with him instead of derailing this topic.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... &start=100
As it stands, we've arrived at a certain degree of civility in this thread, and it has begun to be productive again, and I'd rather not risk it getting locked due to an off-topic sub discussion going on in it.

[dbzfan7]

Personally, I just attribute this to Gohan trying to be like Goku. Goku spared Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza, and although Gohan wasn't there, he would have heard stories about at least the first two from Goku's friends. Plus, with the year he spent alone with Goku, I can see Gohan picking up what he though were some of Goku's traits.

What Gohan didn't understand was the context for hose fights. Goku wanted to spare them because they were great fighters, and he wanted to be able to fight them again. He didn't spare them solely out of his sense of mercy; he had a selfish motive for doing so. Now Gohan has Goku, who has spared all of his foes, telling Gohan to kill Cell. Whether Cell deserves it or not is beside the point; this is just another thing that is confusing Gohan, and he reacts by acting like a kid would: he freezes up.

I always saw Gohan's talking to Cell as more of him just not wanting to kill. He never really wanted to do that to anyone unless he was really pissed. A lot of kids will try complaining or talking things out even if they think it won't work. I've done that with my dad plenty of times. I know Cell is an extreme case, but I can see Gohan at least trying to talk to Cell and maybe scare him about his hidden power. My only problem is that he just stood there while his friends were being killed. I think we should have seen him constantly try to fight Cell off to save his friends. After numerous attempts, then he'd contemplate why he can't access his hidden power. The answer being that the older and more wiser he got, the harder it is for him to get that angry.

Gohan is all over the place. He sometimes likes to fight, and sometimes he hates fighting. I normally just attribute the hate of fighting to killing your enemies. I'd think he'd enjoy a sparring session with Piccolo and Goku, and if either of them asked him to train he'd probably say sure. However he'd never go out of his way to train as it's more of a minor hobby at best. So would this make Saiyaman the stopper of average crime, and if some super being shows up Saiyaman would wuss out?

That works as well. About the Cell Juniors, I offered an answer to that earlier.

Concerning Gohan and the Cell Juniors, I don't see a problem here. All of his friends are being tortured, and he's scared. Sure, he has the power to save them, but what's to say what happens when he goes to save one of them? As soon as Gohan jumps in to save someone, someone else is going to die. He can't save everyone, not at once. He's petrified.

Essentially, Cell is forcing Gohan to choose who lives and who dies. Honestly, if I were in Gohan's position, I think I'd do the same thing.

Actually that's pretty damn good reasoning. Is there any hints of that in the manga as to that being the reason. I could totally accept that reason.