Gohan at the Cell Games

[ABED]

So he went from a young crybaby who needed his hand held to a preteen who needed his hand held. That's not an arc. And what about Gohan's character implies that he would buckle under the pressure until Goku gave him a pep talk?

That was a brief overview paraphrasing what you and others have penalized the arc for.

That wasn't a brief overview. I never wrote those things. That is what you incorrectly inferred from what I and others wrote.

Assuming you are correct, I can't recall a hero's arc making them less mentally capable of defeating the big bad?

[Super_Divine_Genki]

It was just a reminder that Gohan has always been spoiled and coddled in his young life. Chi-chi had always kept him in an overly strict box. I've seen many twenty-something-year-olds in real-life that don't have a clue about anything on their own because their parents have literally done everything for them in all aspects of life (they just walk the straight-forward line that was laid out for them). Previously, all instances of Gohan responding to a threat were as a last resort out of control impulse, or if he had Kuririn teaming up with him.

If I could change one thing about the conclusion, it would be that Gohan would have taken it upon himself to engage in the Kamehameha clash, rather than Goku having to encourage him into it. Goku could've still been encouraging him and been a help, but only after Gohan had made that move first despite his injury. Toriyama really must have wanted Goku to get most of the credit there, which kinda sacrificed Gohan's development at the end.

[ABED]

Up until the age of four, yes, he was coddled, but the second Raditz arrived, no he wasn't. You seem intent on forgetting his character arc in the Saiyan arc. He went from little crybaby to warrior. It was trial by fire. He was the one that insisted he go to Namek. He even yelled at his mother to stop babying him. While Gohan would get angry and often got a temporary power boost, he was more in control of his faculties. When he lost it and attacked Freeza, he didn't forget what he did. He was in control of his mental faculties. The kid who went to Namek was conveniently forgotten in order to justify an arc that he didn't need.

[LuckyCat]

What should have been build up properly were his changes throughout the series in a manner that made the end result feel natural. In other words, in previous arcs, there should have been enough indications that Gohan was developing in a way that made his actions in the Cell games feel natural. We have no such indications, nothing even implied, and the "warning" that Gohan made already at the Cell games, merely a few chapters before going SSJ2 and some minutes before going SSJ2 in in-universe time, and not before the Cell games, doesn't work like that at all.

Gohan was always peaceful and reluctant to fight, though. The only time Gohan was really willing to fight was when someone else was alongside him fighting, like a parent figure. The Cell games marks the beginning of Gohan fighting one-on-one with an opponent. If he eagerly awaited that fight, he wouldn't be the Gohan character anymore. He'd just be a Goku 2.0.

As to your second point, there is warning but it's not enough for you. The warning is Gohan's original peaceful demeanor which goes wild when he's angry. Gohan's never been able to control it before, and now that he's gotten extremely powerful, it's natural and stated, that Gohan would fear the results of his enraged state.

[ABED]

What should have been build up properly were his changes throughout the series in a manner that made the end result feel natural. In other words, in previous arcs, there should have been enough indications that Gohan was developing in a way that made his actions in the Cell games feel natural. We have no such indications, nothing even implied, and the "warning" that Gohan made already at the Cell games, merely a few chapters before going SSJ2 and some minutes before going SSJ2 in in-universe time, and not before the Cell games, doesn't work like that at all.

Gohan was always peaceful and reluctant to fight, though. The only time Gohan was really willing to fight was when someone else was alongside him fighting, like a parent figure. The Cell games marks the beginning of Gohan fighting one-on-one with an opponent. If he eagerly awaited that fight, he wouldn't be the Gohan character anymore. He'd just be a Goku 2.0.

As to your second point, there is warning but it's not enough for you. The warning is Gohan's original peaceful demeanor which goes wild when he's angry. Gohan's never been able to control it before, and now that he's gotten extremely powerful, it's natural and stated, that Gohan would fear the results of his enraged state.

That's more corrolation than causation. The only time he shows reluctance to fight is during the Saiyan arc and the Cell Games. He has different reasons for fighting than his friends and his father, but he's not reluctant. He'll fight if he has to without hesitation. Lets not forget that he never put up a fight when Goku suggested they allow the cyborgs to be completed.

Gohan doesn't actually go any more wild when he's angry than any other angry fighter. When he attacks Freeza, he's in full control of his mental faculties. He doesn't fear his enraged state.

Take the Cell Games out of the equation and see if the rest of the series is consistent with it.

[LuckyCat]

Gohan was always peaceful and reluctant to fight, though. The only time Gohan was really willing to fight was when someone else was alongside him fighting, like a parent figure. The Cell games marks the beginning of Gohan fighting one-on-one with an opponent. If he eagerly awaited that fight, he wouldn't be the Gohan character anymore. He'd just be a Goku 2.0.

As to your second point, there is warning but it's not enough for you. The warning is Gohan's original peaceful demeanor which goes wild when he's angry. Gohan's never been able to control it before, and now that he's gotten extremely powerful, it's natural and stated, that Gohan would fear the results of his enraged state.

That's more corrolation than causation.

Is it just correlation? I think at least thematically Toriyama is trying to setup Gohan as a fighter who is coming of age at the Cell Games. There's no one doing the heavy lifting for him this time, the training wheels are off. Earth's fate is in Gohan's hands. That's much different than Gohan's brief fights in Freeza or Saiyan saga.

The only time he shows reluctance to fight is during the Saiyan arc and the Cell Games. He has different reasons for fighting than his friends and his father, but he's not reluctant. He'll fight if he has to without hesitation. Lets not forget that he never put up a fight when Goku suggested they allow the cyborgs to be completed.

Gohan also hesitated to fight Freeza until Vegeta started boasting how strong Gohan is. Gohan's place as a follower is pretty well documented until the Cell Games because of the reason I mentioned above.

Gohan doesn't actually go any more wild when he's angry than any other angry fighter. When he attacks Freeza, he's in full control of his mental faculties. He doesn't fear his enraged state.

I think this is splitting hairs. Sure, other fighters get angry and act hastily, but Gohan is the only fighter whose regular and promoted trait is to get upset, get extremely powerful, and act completely different than usual. And again, he doesn't fear it until he has insane amounts of power with it as a Super Saiyan. The boosts he gets during Freeza saga versus Cell saga are as different as night and day.

[ABED]

Those weren't training wheels. At that point, Gohan was up against Freeza who for all we knew was the strongest in the universe. He fought him because he had no other choice. He fought overwhelming odds because he was trying to keep himself and his friends alive. I get that there is a difference between at least knowing there is someone there to back you up as opposed to it all riding on Gohan's shoulders, but the Cell Games doesn't show a more mature Gohan. Other the Saiyan arc, Gohan was never less mature and capable than he was at that time.

Gohan also hesitated to fight Freeza until Vegeta started boasting how strong Gohan is. Gohan's place as a follower is pretty well documented until the Cell Games because of the reason I mentioned above.

He didn't hesitate. He got a little scared, but he fought through that because he was a hero.

Until? He's still a follower in the Cell Games.

I think this is splitting hairs. Sure, other fighters get angry and act hastily, but Gohan is the only fighter whose regular and promoted trait is to get upset, get extremely powerful, and act completely different than usual. And again, he doesn't fear it until he has insane amounts of power with it as a Super Saiyan. The boosts he gets during Freeza saga versus Cell saga are as different as night and day.

It's an important distinction. Gohan gets more powerful but he doesn't lose himself. The only time he acted completely different was in the Saiyan arc when he blanks out when his power errupts. Part of Piccolo's training was getting rid of that. He became a Super Saiyan in the RST and him fearing losing himself isn't brought up once. If he really feared that, you'd think that's something he and GOku should've addressed during their training.

[rereboy]

Gohan was always peaceful and reluctant to fight, though.

That's not true at all. Gohan was scared to fight in the saiyan arc because he was a little kid, but he got over it in the very same arc by casting aside his fear and fighting Nappa and then choosing to go and fight alongside Goku, despite what Goku told him. By the end of the saiyan arc, he was the one yelling at Chichi to let him go to Namek because he fully understood that his help as a fighter could be necessary. In the Namek arc, he always chose to fight, even choosing to fight to save a stranger (Dende), and even when it was apparently pointless (Reccome) and against opponents that was way stronger than him (like Reccome and Freeza). And in the android arc, he was always willing to train and prepare himself for the upcoming battles, never showing any kind of reluctance.

Gohan was peaceful but he was never reluctant to fight when it was necessary (at least not after he got over his understandable fear in the saiyan arc).

[ABED]

The only time after the Saiyan arc that he showed reluctance to fight was against Ginyu when he was in his father's body.

[rereboy]

The only time after the Saiyan arc that he showed reluctance to fight was against Ginyu when he was in his father's body.

Even then, Gohan was ultimately perfectly willing to fight him seriously (and he did).

[ABED]

The only time after the Saiyan arc that he showed reluctance to fight was against Ginyu when he was in his father's body.

Even then, Gohan was ultimately perfectly willing to fight him seriously (and he did).

And he wasn't afraid of hurting the bad guy or of his power. He's understandly confused and doesn't want to hurt his father even if it his body isn't currently occupied by him. He gets over his fear, if we can call it that, pretty quickly.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Gohan was still under Chi-chi's influence well after Raditz' arrival. Perhaps not spoiled and coddled, but he remained in her over-protective bubble at home well after he'd returned from Namek.

Gohan didn't jump on the trip to Namek to go fight bad guys. His only drive in going there was to collect DB's and restore Piccolo and co. Being entangled in the conflicts on Namek was only a byproduct of that mission. Yeah, Gohan didn't completely lose his senses when he would fly into rage on Namek, but his actions were mostly a response out of emotional reflex. They weren't pre-meditated.

Also, Gohan didn't leap into action when Goku was succumbing to the virus against #19. He had deferred to Piccolo and co.

I can't remember exactly how the Garlic Jr. arc went down at the end. It's been years since I've seen it.

Basically, I've said this already in this thread, but I'll put it into other words: Gohan acting out as the only line of defense (Namek), and Gohan with an ensemble that he defers to, have given us different results on how Gohan responds to a situation.


A question to anyone: We know that Gohan needed a pep-talk from Goku right at the end against Cell -- Did Gohan give into the "Warrior Code of Honor" and punish himself as a result for not getting the job done, or was it simply bad writing by Toriyama?

I'm really mixed on that scene, but leaning mostly on the side that Toriyama screwed up there with not seeming to want to go all-in with Gohan getting more credit. I'd mentioned before that Toriyama could've had Gohan engage with Cell on his own, and that Goku could have still played "left arm" during the beam clash, keeping Goku "in action". Plus, I think that it would've tied in better with Gohan's initial attempt at resolve with Cell. By the end, Goku and F.Trunks were killed, with Vegeta KO'd, and allowing for Gohan to "buck up" on his own would have done a lot of good for his character. I feel that there's a blemish with how it concluded.

[LuckyCat]

Did Gohan give into the "Warrior Code of Honor" and punish himself as a result for not getting the job done, or was it simply bad writing by Toriyama?

I'm really mixed on that scene, but leaning mostly on the side that Toriyama screwed up there with not seeming to want to go all-in with Gohan getting more credit. I'd mentioned before that Toriyama could've had Gohan engage with Cell on his own, and that Goku could have still played "left arm" during the beam clash, keeping Goku "in action". Plus, I think that it would've tied in better with Gohan's initial attempt at resolve with Cell. By the end, Goku and F.Trunks were killed, with Vegeta KO'd, and allowing for Gohan to "buck up" on his own would have done a lot of good for his character. I feel that there's a blemish with how it concluded.

See, I think Toriyama wanted to emphasize that Goku was involved in the defeat of Cell. Goku did the actual fighting with Cell, it was Goku's plan for Gohan to fight Cell, and Goku coached Gohan to make the final blow on Cell. But I don't see the problem, Gohan was happy to avenge his father when Cell returned. I think that shows Gohan finally grew up and resolves his arc. The pep talk was only necessary after Vegeta screwed things up (again).

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Yeah, Vegeta recklessly jumping in the way after Gohan had committed is what has made me think twice about how the ending played out. At the same time, I would've liked to have seen Gohan firing his kamehameha, getting a bit overwhelmed, and then have Goku's encouragement come into play. Oh well. :/

[ABED]

But I don't see the problem, Gohan was happy to avenge his father when Cell returned. I think that shows Gohan finally grew up and resolves his arc. The pep talk was only necessary after Vegeta screwed things up (again).

He was ready to give up when no one else could defeat Cell. Yeah saving Vegeta messed up his arm, but Gohan was going to give up until Goku gave him a pep talk. This does not show Gohan growing up and resolving his arc. It shows a regression. It shows someone needing someone to hold his hand. I'm fine with Goku pointing out Vegeta has momentarily distracted Cell, but that's not what you're talking about. How does Goku convincing Gohan to fight resolve Gohan's arc? What do you think Gohan's arc is?