Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

[ABED]

But Goku leaving was never properly explained or justified, which makes me think it was entirely arbitrary

Or you just want everything explained in excruciating detail instead of getting the point that it doesn't matter where he goes. That's not the point. He's effectively dead as the result of a deal he made with Shen Long.

[MR.Mark]

I didn't like the Shadow Dragon saga either, simply because I could not find justification as to why the dragons were as powerful as they were, the entire premise was flawed IMO. Not to mention that yeah, they could at least have had the others handle the weaker ones instead of leaving them all to Goku. I didn't like the ending either even though yes, it was quite emotional. But Goku leaving was never properly explained or justified, which makes me think it was entirely arbitrary - not to mention that canon Shenron doesn't have the agency to decide something like that on his own at all. These flaws aside, GT definitely is watchable, but I'll always be negatively biased towards it just because it epitomizes the Toei universe at the expense of Toriyama's.

Agreed, which is why it mostly feels like a 64 episode Toei movie to me.

[ABED]

You are being petty and childish because you lack an open mind to watch the show let alone give it a chance.

That's not petty and childish. I'm simply rationally skeptic. After not caring for Revival of F and the direction of DB as a whole over the last 20 years, plus not caring for the fights in either of the last two movies, plus the abundance of terrible revivals in the last few years, it's not petty to say I'm skeptical of Super and I'm not interested enough to invest the time in watching 100 episodes and counting when they do things like bringing back Freeza TWICE and spends the first two arcs adapting two movies! No, I'm not that open minded, but I am active minded and there are only so many hours in a day and there's already so much interesting TV out there vying for my attention, what about Super is so interesting that it's a better use of my time than watching the glut of good TV that isn't going to the well with old villains and a seemingly endless parade of transformations?

Once again, execution, and I find Super has done this better than GT, you don't, fair enough, moving on

Back on topic, I've made it clear what I don't like about GT before it turned into a pointless Super vs GT debate.

Constantly using a villain time after time qualifies as execution. Even if the story is okay, the cumulative effect of going to that well so many times is me being apathetic.

Why does anyone use the term "pointless" on a DB forum? We're talking about a cartoon, it's all trivial.

Agreed, which is why it mostly feels like a 64 episode Toei movie to me.

Pretty much everyone agrees on that point, even those that like the show will concede that it's Toei's DB. It's like any show after a new showrunner takes over.

[MR.Mark]

Constantly complaining about a villain returning before we know what's going to happen is pretty damn trivial too. Glad we agree about the Toei thing though, the series feeling like Toriyama is pretty important to me.

[ABED]

Constantly complaining about a villain returning before we know what's going to happen is pretty damn trival too. Glad we agree about the Toei thing though, the series feeling like Toriyama is pretty important to me.

That's not trivial, it's important. Have you never seen a TV show or movie that kept using a bad guy over and over to the point where it loses what made the villain interesting or even runs them into the ground?

Yes, the story feeling like Toriyama is important, but so is being good which isn't the same thing. Not every thing Toriyama does is gold. RoF is terrible.

[ekrolo2]

Freeza's newest return has promise behind it, which means they'll fuck it up. I don't get the whole "wait and see" approach after a 100 episodes because it's a hundred+ episodes, I think that's more than enough to get an idea for where and how certain things will play out by this point. We don't need to see story C panning out from start to finish when the identical stories A and B had the same merits then failed by the end to expect a failure for C as well.

[MR.Mark]

Again, comes down to, DRUMROLL, execution.

With Freeza's return in the TOP, Toriyama not only made ROF and his golden power up justified, he has so far completely redeemed Freeza's return and made it memorable.

Once again, I for one want to see where Freeza goes. Nothing wrong with bringing a memorable Baddie back and making it worth while instead of just sticking with the kill the big bad and move on to the next formula.

Nothing is stopping you from saying Freeza coming back sucks because, um, it will eventually suck/already sucks. If you want that negative outlook more power to you.

[ekrolo2]

What do you think my skepticism comes from? Bad execution.

Black had a similar home run start as Freeza does know, both were breaking several DB villain molds, both had some intriguing plots/schemes we had to wait to see and where'd Black go? Oh yeah, to shit along with the rest of the arc in the final third. And it goes beyond Black, if there's a concept that starts well in Super, it WILL be ruined because they've all been ruined thus far, they either fail from the start or fail to stick the landing.

And we've got a 100 episodes worth of this stuff, Freeza suddenly being the golden exception to the trend would be really nice, he's literally the only reason to watch the new arc, but they'll fuck it up somehow, as they've done everywhere else. I don't need a magic ball that sees into the future to notice the patterns and if economics has taught me anything, the patterns of the past are paramount to noticing the trends of the future.

[MR.Mark]

You've already decided his return will be fucked up so again, there's no debate to be had. If he is wasted I will be disappointed but I'm hoping for the best so far since he's been awesome imo.

Besides that, TOP has had some great battles and fun characters, so Freeza is hardly just the only good thing about it.

[ABED]

Again, comes down to, DRUMROLL, execution.

With Freeza's return in the TOP, Toriyama not only made ROF and his golden power up justified, he has so far completely redeemed Freeza's return and made it memorable.

Once again, I for one want to see where Freeza goes. Nothing wrong with bringing a memorable Baddie back and making it worth while instead of just sticking with the kill the big bad and move on to the next formula.

It IS execution! Bringing out a villain again and again qualifies as execution. Even if the story manages to be good, the cumulative effect of having brought him back time after time lessens the impact of the later stories.

No, nothing wrong with bringing a good bad guy back, but if you do it time after time after time, then it loses its potency. I'd rather they fight someone new. That way they can tell a new story.

Whether they will screw up the story isn't my concern as much as going to that well. The reason Doyle featured Professor Moriarty in only one story is because if he and Sherlock were to constantly fight each other, at a certain point, both will look less competent for being unable to stop the other for good.

[MR.Mark]

editdouble post*

[MR.Mark]

It IS execution!

And I like the execution! (so far)

You don't, fair enough, moving on.

[ABED]

I'm fine with that. I'm just glad you seem to understand my point.

[MR.Mark]

Oh I understand, I don't agree though, Freeza has only had more impact since his return, you seem to disagree.

Fair enough, I feel he is being executed well. Goku and Freeza only fought each other twice, so have Goku and Vegeta. So again I want to see where Freeza goes from here.

[ABED]

It's like in Power Rangers when the bad guys say "I'll destroy you! You won't get away this time!" in every episode. Those threats are a lot less effective after they are defeated for 50 episodes in a row.

Someone brought up GT using filler as the basis for its stories, but I like that Baby is linked back to filler, memorable filler at that.

[MR.Mark]

So now your complaining that Goku isin't stopping Freeza for good like a typical Hero? Your contradicting yourself quite abit, he wants Freeza around for a challenge still. In fact Freeza taunted Goku for this very reason in the current arc.

Again, try watching Super sometime.

Baby was alright, give me Zamasu anyday. Beerus too for that matter, even though he's not really a villian which again was refreshing.

[ABED]

So now your complaining that Goku isin't stopping Freeza for good like a typical Hero? Your contradicting yourself quite abit, he wants Freeza around for a challenge still. In fact Freeza taunted Goku for this very reason in the current arc.

Again, try watching Super sometime.

Groan. There's no contradiction, and I didn't say anything close to what you claimed.

Freeza isn't much of a challenge if he's been defeated decisively every single time. Freeza has fewer wins against Goku and his friends than the Washington Generals. The person that keeps Goku on his toes is Vegeta. Vegeta is a few steps behind, but Goku hasn't actually defeated Vegeta in a one on one battle.

Beerus too for that matter, even though he's not really a villain which again was refreshing.

Yes, that was new which one reason I liked him.

[MR.Mark]

Freeza was on par with SSJ blue Goku upon his return in the current arc. So as long as he trains, he can be a challenge. Your analogies don't back up you opinions but ok.

Even though it was dirty, Freeza was hardly defeated decisively the last time. Goku needed Whis's help and poor old Vegeta was killed, again, by that bastard.

I again can't wait to see what happens with Freeza, but if your tired of him, fair enough.

[ABED]

Freeza was on par with SSJ blue Goku upon his return in the current arc. So as long as he trains, he can be a challenge. Your analogies don't back up you opinions but ok.

Even though it was dirty, Freeza was hardly defeated decisively the last time. Goku needed Whis's help and poor old Vegeta was killed, again, by that bastard.

I again can't wait to see what happens with Freeza, but if your tired of him, fair enough.

And yet he made the same mistake the first time they fought. Your examples don't back up yours. If Goku defeats them every single time out, he's is objectively not a credible threat. He lost the first fight, Trunks killed him like a peon, and he used a new form that consumed way too much power just like the first fight. Goku defeating Freeza is not nearly as impressive as he's been defeated several times before. He was not on par with Goku. Yes, he was as strong as Goku for a small amount of time, but there is more to fighting in DB than pure strength. He lacks battle intelligence and his golden form has a huge drawback which he failed to account for YET AGAIN. This guy used to be the head of a huge empire and was undefeated. Beating him meant something the first time. By definition, defeating him for a 3rd or 4th time holds less value. We also know he won't succeed because we know Goku lives to fight Uub.

Freeza was defeated decisively. He was killed and the fact that the little blaster mortally injured Goku was stupid so Freeza needed help as well.

I'm not against anyone liking where they are going with Freeza, I'm simply pointing out why I don't and why many people don't care for it.

[MR.Mark]

But Goku ultimately DIDN'T defeat Freeza the last time they fought. Dirty or not Freeza got the best of him and Whis had to step in.

Freeza lost the battle but won the war. Goku got a do over then took him out because Freeza was just THAT dangerous to keep alive.

This was further backed up with Goku's conversation with Freeza in hell.

When Goku says Freeza is the worst kind of scum, you know he's being handled well.

Your going around in circles at this point, you already decided that Super is bad and so is bringing back Freeza. So this has become an exercise in futility.

ROF was weak most agree with that, but most agree some of it was redeemed with how well Freeza is being handled now.