Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

[WittyUsername]

Spice and Wolf is fantastic, possibly Funimation's best dub. It's one of the main reasons I don't buy the "Funi can't afford great VA's" excuse.

Isn’t Chris Sabat part of that dub?

He's plays a minor character that appears in 3 or so episodes. The Marheit guy I mentioned earlier.

But he does a bad job as the character?

[Kamiccolo9]

Isn’t Chris Sabat part of that dub?

He's plays a minor character that appears in 3 or so episodes. The Marheit guy I mentioned earlier.

But he does a bad job as the character?

Decent, as I said earlier. Spice and Wolf thrives off its two protagonists, who do an amazing job.

[Dr. Casey]

I don’t watch much anime, but have there ever been any especially great English dubs? People always go on about the English dub of Cowboy Bebop, but I honestly think that dub is kind of wonky in places. I also hear a lot about Black Lagoon, but the only things I really know about that series and dub is that they swear a lot, and that they got white people to voice characters who are supposed to be Asian.

It's a videogame rather than an anime, but the dub for Trails of Cold Steel is excellent. Hardly a single voice in the entire series that isn't charming and/or easy on the ears, and the Kiseki series is known for having so many characters it's hard to keep up with.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t watch much anime, but have there ever been any especially great English dubs? People always go on about the English dub of Cowboy Bebop, but I honestly think that dub is kind of wonky in places. I also hear a lot about Black Lagoon, but the only things I really know about that series and dub is that they swear a lot, and that they got white people to voice characters who are supposed to be Asian.

I think that the dub of both Yu Yu Hakusho & My Hero Academia are great. FUNi does them both and while YYH was dubbed around the time of the original Dragon Ball the quality of the dub was much higher.

I’ve seen the dub of Yu Yu Hakusho, but I don’t care for the show in general. I’m not actually big on anime or manga, in fact, I’m annoyed by the majority that I’ve seen. I was just curious as to what people here would say is the definition of a good dub.

[gokaiblue]

I don’t watch much anime, but have there ever been any especially great English dubs? People always go on about the English dub of Cowboy Bebop, but I honestly think that dub is kind of wonky in places. I also hear a lot about Black Lagoon, but the only things I really know about that series and dub is that they swear a lot, and that they got white people to voice characters who are supposed to be Asian.

A good dub for me keeps a majority of the script, little to no visual edits, keeps most if not all of the oruginal music, and a good voice cast. There's some wiggle room, but those are what I expect from a good dub. Both Kai 1.0 and 2.0. qualify along with Super.

[8000 Saiyan]

Well, Witty, the dubs for Samurai Champloo, Fullmetal Alchemist, Death Note, Black Lagoon, FLCL are considered to be some of the finest.

And I don't agree with the Yu Yu Hakusho dub being great. It's far more tolerable than the Z or GT dubs, but it still suffers from problems, making some changes in order to make the show more hardcore than it was in the Japanese version. And Chris Sabat's Kuwabara is unbearable to listen to. He sounds like a total idiot.

And I'll never agree with the idea that Cook is better than Sasaki as Yusuke. The former sometimes is trying too hard.

[Fionordequester]

I think that the dub of both Yu Yu Hakusho & My Hero Academia are great. FUNi does them both and while YYH was dubbed around the time of the original Dragon Ball the quality of the dub was much higher.

That said, FUNi was still a fairly small company back then. They only had so many actors to go around; and some of them were still working off the rough edges in their craft. Hence, we run into some funny situations, like Brice Armstrong voicing what felt like 1/3rd of the supporting characters. Just imagine...


-------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Cook: Yo Brice, we got this thuggish teenager trying to assault Keiko with this doctor mask over his face. We need your gravelly voice!

Brice Armstrong: With pleasure!

Justin Cook: Oh hey! We also have to cast for Yusuke's evil Principal. You know, guy that's always hanging out with the thin, weaselly looking guy?

Brice Armstrong: Oho! Always wanted a position with some authority!

Justin Cook: Great, great...oh yeah, said Principal also seems to have a twin brother that works as an assassin. Now he's trying to win a tournament, and become Genkai's student. You wanna...

Brice Armstrong: Way ahead of ya, big guy!

Justin Cook: Ok. We also got this uh, pirate guy sailing the ship to the Dark Tournament. Any chance you could...

Brice Armstrong: Oh! Pirates! I LOVE pirates! Crunchitize me, Cap'n!

Justin Cook: Then we have...uh...that one guy in the Black Black Club that eventually gets killed by Toguro...

Brice Armstrong: Uh huh, uh huh...

Justin Cook: And then this one really HUGE guy? With an axe? He ALSO gets killed by Toguro. Will that be too much, or...

Brice Armstrong: No, that's great. Man, I'm getting a lot of work!

Justin Cook: I know! It's like your voice was just MADE for this show !
-------------------------------------------------------------

[WittyUsername]

Well, Witty, the dubs for Samurai Champloo, Fullmetal Alchemist, Death Note, Black Lagoon, FLCL are considered to be some of the finest.

And I don't agree with the Yu Yu Hakusho dub being great. It's far more tolerable than the Z or GT dubs, but it still suffers from problems, making some changes in order to make the show more hardcore than it was in the Japanese version. And Chris Sabat's Kuwabara is unbearable to listen to. He sounds like a total idiot.

And I'll never agree with the idea that Cook is better than Sasaki as Yusuke. The former sometimes is trying too hard.

Again, one of the only things I know about dubs like Black Lagoon is that the Asian characters were voiced by white people, which is pretty tacky, to be honest. I'm not saying the dub can't still be great, but that's a bit difficult for me to look past.

Mind you, I don't like anime in general. In fact, sometimes I think the only reason that I still technically like Dragon Ball is because I'm, as others would put it, blinded by nostalgia. There's just something that seems very cheap and artificial about anime, and I can't say I really understand Japanese humor.

[Fionordequester]

Again, one of the only things I know about dubs like Black Lagoon is that the Asian characters were voiced by white people, which is pretty tacky, to be honest. I'm not saying the dub can't still be great, but that's a bit difficult for me to look past.

Huh. Well...I mean, when we're talking about a dub made in the United States, it IS pretty likely that there will be white people. Probably a lot of them, in fact.

Not that I don't understand, but...it seems like most animated shows PERIOD would fail, whether made in America or not. I mean, Avatar: The Last Airbender's "Prince Zuko" is basically an Asian voiced by a Filipino-American. And God of "Kratos" is voiced by a black person.

[WittyUsername]

Again, one of the only things I know about dubs like Black Lagoon is that the Asian characters were voiced by white people, which is pretty tacky, to be honest. I'm not saying the dub can't still be great, but that's a bit difficult for me to look past.

Huh. Well...I mean, when we're talking about a dub made in the United States, it IS pretty likely that there will be white people. Probably a lot of them, in fact.

Not that I don't understand, but...it seems like most animated shows PERIOD would fail, whether made in America or not. I mean, Avatar: The Last Airbender's "Prince Zuko" is basically an Asian voiced by an Filipino-American. And God of "Kratos" is voiced by a black person.

But from what I understand, several of the characters in Black Lagoon actually are white. I feel that if an anime is willing to make a distinction between which characters are Asian, and which ones are white, it only makes sense for the characters who are Asian to actually be voiced by Asian actors.

Of course, I have the same problem with Chris Sabat voicing Staff Officer Black. Are there seriously no black actors at Funimation?

[gokaiblue]

^
I personally feel race doesn't matter in voice over as long as we don't get this

[DB_Fan1991]

Again, one of the only things I know about dubs like Black Lagoon is that the Asian characters were voiced by white people, which is pretty tacky, to be honest. I'm not saying the dub can't still be great, but that's a bit difficult for me to look past.

Huh. Well...I mean, when we're talking about a dub made in the United States, it IS pretty likely that there will be white people. Probably a lot of them, in fact.

Not that I don't understand, but...it seems like most animated shows PERIOD would fail, whether made in America or not. I mean, Avatar: The Last Airbender's "Prince Zuko" is basically an Asian voiced by an Filipino-American. And God of "Kratos" is voiced by a black person.

But from what I understand, several of the characters in Black Lagoon actually are white. I feel that if an anime is willing to make a distinction between which characters are Asian, and which ones are white, it only makes sense for the characters who are Asian to actually be voiced by Asian actors.

Of course, I have the same problem with Chris Sabat voicing Staff Officer Black. Are there seriously no black actors at Funimation?

In 2001, likely there wasn't.

[WittyUsername]

^
I personally feel race doesn't matter in voice over as long as we don't get this

Oh God. I forgot about that...

[The Patrolman]

^
I personally feel race doesn't matter in voice over as long as we don't get this

Sounds like Boomhauer

[jjgp1112]

...Either this thread got REALLY messy or did something get merged?

[Fionordequester]

...Either this thread got REALLY messy or did something get merged?

...Things got messy.

[jjgp1112]

I will say that the nostalgia argument has become so appallingly tiring and cliche that I think it's a small wonder that these threads consistently fly off the rails. If people are repeatedly taking these things personally, perhaps the other side should consider how they're going about these arguments rather than continually dismissing them as overly sensitive.

[The Patrolman]

...Either this thread got REALLY messy or did something get merged?

The first part happened

[Kunzait_83]

I read through this topic thoroughly and I must say this, is this how the fanbase acted when Season 3 started in 1999? My god I have never seen so much fighting about the dub now in the 10 years I've been following this franchise. I am disappointed with almost everyone who has contributed to this thread. Most of you guys sound like schoolyard bullies picking on the fat kid. I should know I was the fat kid when I was that age.

I didn't realize it would get this toxic in here with all the insults flying around.

...seriously?

This thread is absolutely NOTHING compared to some of the downright vicious insanity that used to go on in dub/sub debates during the early/mid 2000s. Hell, its a great deal of nothing in and of itself: this is your definition of "toxic"? Really? Which internet have YOU been on these past 10 years? I want a peek into this Ozzie & Harriet-esque online utopia that you're used to which is apparently SO serene and peaceful, that a complete and utter wisp of a nothing of a disagreement like this one here is enough to make you pop your monocle in dismay.

Where are all these "insults" getting flung in people's faces within this thread here? Point me to some posts in here where people are getting uncivil with one another and are calling people names, making personal threats, resorting to hateful rhetoric, etc?

The only "insults" in here were directed at the performances of the English dub actors. Not even the actors THEMSELVES: just their performances. Which is of course perfectly fair game to insult, as its professional work on a professional television production. People have every right to call an acting performance they think is bad as being lousy: if THAT'S enough to raise your hair on end, then I can't even begin to imagine how you react in an ACTUAL, seriously VICIOUS and acrimonious argument where people are ACTUALLY hurling REAL insults and obscenities at one another to and fro.

Its simply ridiculous painting this thread as if people are being in ANY which way vile and out of line with one another. As far as I can tell, the only thing that ANYONE in this thread is "guilty" of is disagreeing as to the level of quality in the voice acting of a children's cartoon. Some folks think that the actors in question aren't very good at their jobs and perhaps shouldn't have those roles anymore: others see different.

If by "toxic" and "insults flying around" what you mean is "Why isn't everyone in here agreeing with one another in lockstep unison and collectively heaping praise on anything and everything dub related?" then I'm sorry to disappoint you, but people are gonna A) disagree from time to time, being individuals with differing perspectives and all, and B) might in some cases not have quite so flattering or rosy an outlook of FUNimation's handling of this series.

If that's enough to warrant you being aghast and offended, then I'm going to politely suggest that this whole internet thing may not be for you, as there are PLENTY of corners of it that makes the incredibly TEPID and positively genteel as all get out disputes here in this place seem like Pleasantville in comparison.

I don’t watch much anime, but have there ever been any especially great English dubs? People always go on about the English dub of Cowboy Bebop, but I honestly think that dub is kind of wonky in places. I also hear a lot about Black Lagoon, but the only things I really know about that series and dub is that they swear a lot, and that they got white people to voice characters who are supposed to be Asian.

There's a lot of high quality English dubs: a great deal many of them unfortunately are for anime which are oftentimes lousy in and of themselves to begin with, even in their native language.

There's plenty of shitty English dubs as well: for bad anime certainly, but oftentimes unfortunately for a LOT of genuinely good to great anime as well.

Sad thing is, its kinda on the rare-ish side when the "good anime" and "good dub" stars actually align with one another. But it DOES happen. Ghost in the Shell I would point to as an example of a great anime with a high quality English dub to match. Many Ghibli anime of course also qualify (at least from the late 90s onward: Nausicaa's original dub was of course a notorious train wreck).

The second major stab at dubbing Akira I would point to as a successfully well executed dub. As well as Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, whose dub came about because the original Japanese director, Yoshiaki Kawajiri, reportedly loved the English dub cast for one of his previous anime (Ninja Scroll) SO much, that he requested that same cast be picked back up and be given the first crack at voicing Bloodlust before its Japanese cast: thus its the JAPANESE version of that anime which is technically the "dub" as Kawajiri tailored its animation to the voices of the English cast due to his enthusiasm for their work on dubbing Ninja Scroll.

Bebop I would also point to as a really solid dub, even if I think that fans sometimes go a TAD overboard in praising it. Its very good, but I wouldn't consider it the be-all, end-all of English anime dubs as many have.

Good dubs for good anime are too often not in a great deal of abundance, but they ARE certainly out there.

While I don’t care for the Funimation voices in general, I can’t help but wonder what exactly we’re supposed to be looking for in an anime dub? It’s not like they can hire Daniel Day Lewis or Denzel Washington. The fact that they were even able to get James Marsters was considered a big deal.

It's an over the top cartoon. I'm not looking for subtlety, though there is an art to good performances even in an over the top cartoon.

I also wonder how exactly high these standards are of these fans. Oscar winning over-acting? A star studded cast that Funimation can't really afford (they were lucky to get Marsters)? The voices to sound exactly like their Japanese counterparts?

First of all: no one's calling for Oscar-caliber talent in this series. Its a silly kung fu fantasy for kids: it doesn't have to have Scorsese caliber performances, obviously.

That having been said though... what the Japanese cast managed to do was GREATLY elevate this material with rock solid, earnest, and naturalistic vocal performances for the characters. Dragon Ball's characters, world, story, and general "universe" are of course insanely and ludicrously over the top and silly: but by giving these insane characters such disarmingly organic and grounded performances, this does a LOT to help "level out" the overall tone and execution of the story.

When you take a comic book that's already filled with gonzo over the top visuals, character archetypes, story beats, locations, and supernatural martial arts fights... and THEN when adapting it as a cartoon, throw on TOP OF ALL THAT acting performances (and music) that are ALSO equally matching those elements in being gonzo over the top... it gets to be waaaaaay too much to take. Its an all-out assault on your senses; and not in a good way (i.e. "Whoa! This is intense!") but rather in a gratingly obnoxious and abrasive way (i.e "This shit is REALLY irritating and annoying to sit through for longer than a few seconds at a time").

There's NOTHING there that's remotely or relatably human to "ground" or "anchor" any of this ridiculousness and you're just left with basically a whole lot of obnoxious loudness attempting to beat the viewer into submission.

But.... when you counterbalance these over the top visuals and story/character beats and concepts with performances (and again, music) that are actually SUBTLE and grounded in dramatic believability... you disarm the audience and subvert their expectations. THAT'S a HUGE part of what makes the Japanese version of the anime SO consistently engaging and watchable, even to an adult viewer: even though its depicting a wacky, surreal fantasy world filled with wacky, surreal ideas and concepts, its all treated with an eye (or rather, an ear) towards dramatic earnestness and genuine, organically believable emotions rooted across a wide, wide range of emotional spectrums, both heightened and low key.

In other words: Toriyama's characters and universe are ALREADY insane and whacked out deranged ALREADY. They DON'T NEED further "help" from the acting (or once again, the music) to make them even LESS dimensional and MORE on-the-nose than they already are. The Japanese anime was/is smart enough to take a crazy fantasy world (that's already enticing to kids on its face) and lend it a sense of genuine dramatic gravitas that can even keep adults engaged as well.

Dragon Ball is still a children's cartoon ultimately: but the Japanese production was ambitious enough to put in enough effort to allow it to RISE ABOVE that station into something much more universal and palatable across age ranges.

Does that mean I want or expect Olivier or Brando from an English Dragon Ball cast? Of course not. Do I want/expect exact literal and exact soundalikes of the Japanese cast? Of course not.

What I DO want/expect is simply the same general creative/artistic APPROACH taken to voicing these characters that the Japanese version took: casting halfway competent and professional actors who A) have at least SOME tangible experience in acting in things that AREN'T just children's cartoons, and B) are capable of delivering naturalistic, conversational, organic-sounding performances within an otherwise batshit insane TV series, without resorting to "I'm in a stupid Saturday morning kids' cartoon, so I'm gonna do my 'silly cartoon voice' now" levels of overwrought caricatured and forced over-acting.

That ISN'T the same thing as expecting Denzel in Training Day-levels of Oscar caliber acting: its simply asking that both the voice directors and the cast just treat and voice these characters in a relatively grounded fashion and talk like regular people rather than "I'M! GRRRRR.... DOING!!! RRRRRAAAAAH... MY!!! ACTION!! YAAAAAAHH... CARTOON!!! GYYYAAAAAAAH... HERO!!! GRAAAAAAAH.... VOICE!!!!"

And also for that matter, I don't think its AT ALL too much to ask that an English dubbing company have enough sense to have its actors voice the martial arts fight scenes in its martial arts show as, you know, martial arts fights between martial arts fighters and not like a WWE match by way of someone taking a MASSIVE shit.

In other words: just because you're voicing a children's cartoon, don't therefore go so far out of your way to hamfistedly TREAT IT like its just a disposable kids cartoon. The Japanese version didn't, it aimed for something a bit higher, and the results clearly speak for themselves.

To wit: I like James Marsters as an actor more than plenty well enough. Enough to call myself somewhat of a fan of his work: enough where my eyes will reflexively perk up slightly when I see his name in something. But in NO WAY is he even anywhere within SPITTING DISTANCE of being any kind if "amazingly all time great" actor who's in any danger of netting any major awards. He's simply a good, solid professional who does consistently good, solid work.

And just THAT median baseline of basic competence from an "actual actor" is MORE than enough for him to dance RINGS around the old, classic FUNimation standbys, nearly ALL of whom do uniformly terrible work on this show, and outside of Dragon Ball and a smattering handful of other things, mainly get work in largely unwatchable crap anime shows that no one other than die hard Otaku-types cares about.

With all due respect to Marsters (who again, I'm personally quite fond of in general) being substantially outclassed by him acting-wise is roughly akin to being thoroughly blown off the screen by the likes of Scott Bakula or Matt LeBlanc, or whatever other C-list Network TV-level talent one can conjure up who's generally little more beyond pleasing and passable at best.

This is what people like myself and Kamiccolo (and other posters in other threads over the years) are and have been trying to get across here: fans have set the overall "bar" SO absurdly fucking low for themselves thanks partly to their own loyal devotion to this cast. Any many of them DON'T EVEN REALIZE OR UNDERSTAND how low they've set it for themselves: partly because, again, this is a fanbase that overwhelmingly mires itself predominantly within dumpy children's cartoons in general anyway and who's general experience with higher grade acting is oftentimes VERY minimal compared to even just the average person.

I
wouldn't
call
this
absurdly
minor

That is my main gripe with this whole thing. In my eyes, these guys are good actors, and they have improved. Yet, thus improvement isn't enough for some. I even gave reasons for why I feel this way, yet I still see very little credence or even example of the cast not being that good of actors now.

You just posted the "proof" yourself. Yeah, I looked through all of those clips: the Kai clips in all of them are BARELY all that much better than the original DBZ ones. Sorry. Hell, I actually involuntarily chortled at Schemmel's "Going SSJ for the first time" clip in the KAI version. THAT'S supposed to be the "massively improved" version? Hoo boy. He sounds like someone who's doing a bad job at faking a panic attack to get out of work that day. Seriously, that actually got an unintentional, genuinely uncontrollable snicker out of me: not at all the desired emotion for that particular scene.

The only really substantial difference in vocal performance across ANY of these is Sabat's Piccolo, whom he's MASSIVELY reigned in on the "grunting ogre/drill sergeant" aspect over the years: but even in his later years, he still sounds incredibly stiff and awkward and FAR from natural or charismatic as Piccolo. He just isn't a particularly good or engaging actor: and after 20 years, even at his absolute "best", he still sounds insanely uncomfortable, stilted, forced, and unnatural within the recording booth.

Otherwise, yeah: this is all just a MARGINAL tweak on what are already innately shitty performances predicated on inherently wrongheaded and misbegotten takes on and approaches to these characters: on a fundamental, FOUNDATIONAL level that is irrevocably broken from its very starting point.

And look man, I don't in any way like doing this at all, but...

I watch a variety of things from Star Wars to Seinfeld btw, but here are just a few of my favorites besides Dragon Ball: Star Trek, Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back, Yellow Submarine, Star Trek (every show to DIS but that's simply because I haven't seen much of it), Tetsuwan Atom, Pokémon, Cowboy Bebop, Lupin the III part 4, and others.

I'm sorry... this list, while containing things that I myself like a lot as well (namely Seinfeld, Bebop, and Empire) is hardly at all what I'd call anything resembling "eclectic" or "varied" in the slightest. Seinfeld and Yellow Submarine aside, this is all fairly boilerplate, standard "nerd/geek" fare that pretty much EVERYONE in communities like this one knows inside and out.

What about actual, non-nerdy dramas? What about crime fiction, tragic romances, biopics, art house fare, "hard" sci fi, historical/speculative fiction, dark comedies, social/political satires? Less "kid friendly" genres like horror, Westerns, film noir? How about ANY of the countless and varied kinds of films that Cowboy Bebop takes its creative influence from?

Basically stuff that doesn't have any sort of toyline or merchandising empire tied into it?

Yellow Submarine and Seinfeld are a decent enough start on that front; but this overall insanely narrowed-off spectrum of largely geek/child-centric works from which to gauge things off of is PRECISELY part of the core issue here and where so much of the disparity in much of our standards for things like "believable depictions of grounded or subtle human emotions in acting" stems from.

If Star Wars, Star Trek, and Cowboy Bebop are as close to "grounded adult drama" as you ever get (at least going off of the examples you gave anyway), then you're genuinely and in no small part not exposing yourself to anywhere NEAR all that much in the way of varied works; enough to the point that I would argue is needlessly kneecapping and robbing yourself in missing out on SO. INCREDIBLY. MUCH. That's out there and that will DRAMATICALLY rewire and rearrange your standards and expectations for these things.

I don't mean to be the "taste police" here, and I sincerely apologize if any of what I said about your list of favorite media just now comes across that way in the slightest: I'm just illustrating a larger, community-wide point here that I think has been long, LONG lurking behind the heart of a LOT of the disagreements we've been having over the years now.

One of the key reasons (not the end-all-be-all reason, I'm not claiming its impossible to simply have a differing opinion about something without any caveats; but certainly A notable reason) why so many of us seem to be hearing two COMPLETELY different things when we discuss the dub and its acting (and scripting, and musical scoring) quality is that there are a LOT of folks here - and I know from having spoken at great, great lengths with and having gotten to know a LOT of folks on here over the past nearly 15 years now - who simply don't engage with or seek out a whole lot of media that isn't primarily cartoons made for small children (and moreover that's made for selling toys to children primarily) very often.

There's for many folks who post here a HUGE and notable lack of exposure to works with a level of professional craft and sophistication that stems beyond the usual lowered standards of children's television: this lack of exposure or curiosity for seeking out such works leads to a substantial contingent of fans who's baseline, median standard threshold of quality for these things is generally stuff like this.

And that's... in NO way a "normal" or "healthy" baseline from which to approach ANYTHING, even something as otherwise ridiculous and silly as Dragon Ball; it needlessly skews if not out and out BREAKS one's sense of general perspective and basic-most critical gauge, to the point where we have people who come into these conversations under the (mistaken) assumption that Power Rangers-caliber acting is our baseline standard-bearer for subdued emoting and gravitas, and that name-dropping titles like Pokemon and Shadow the Hedgehog as yardsticks of quality comparison somehow holds any kind of genuine critical weight that we all universally take seriously.

[gokaiblue]

<Snip>

There's disagreeing with someone's opinion, and there's 10:30pm diatribes like this. Not even bothering to go point by point this time if you're going to insult my tastes in entertainment.

I'm just going to leave it at this: I think the Funimation cast is giving a good performance, and you don't. Neither one of us is right or wrong, and there's no need for personal attacks on anyone or their skill, takent, or preferences on media.