Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[MasenkoHA]

"Characters only do things because they enjoy them!"

Missing the point so bad I see.

"People don't respond to major events in their lives!" "It's totally normal to ignore character development if the regression is towards the very first version of the character we were introduced to!"

Except Gohan did not regress to his first version. Gohan as he was introduced did not want to fight at all. His character development was learning sometimes you have to fight to protect others. And that is entirely consistent with him still using his powers to help people during the Great Saiyaman portion. He also signed up for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai and went with Goku and Vegeta to stop Bobbodi from reviving Boo. Gohan is not his dad. He’s not constantly training to get stronger. But he will use his natural talents to help. Gohan wasn’t training in the manga during the time between Namek and Cyborg Freeza either.

Hell, Goku doesn’t even train become of potential evil threats.

You know when Gohan actually regressed as a character? During the damn Cell Games where he suddenly refuses to fight Cell even though he’s a present threat and Gohan already saw what happens when you refuse to fight. But no it takes the pep talk and death of a character he never said two words to to get him back to his Saiyan arc development.

But that was okay because it lead to his badass moment I guess.

You can't have major life events, try to pass them off as important, and then insist 'no, actually, they don't matter. They wouldn't have any impact on the character."

Nobody is. The Gohan who would use his powers to help people is not the same Gohan we were introduced to at the very beginning who outright refused to fight.

[jjgp1112]

I'm pretty sure it was never established that Gohan didn't like school or academics. His desire to help in a fight often conflicted with Chichi's overbearing desire that he focus on his studies, but he himself has never expressed that he dislikes academics.

Yeah the whole "Gohan likes to goof off and cut school to spar" thing only existed in filler and movies. Did his mom steer him towards school and probably give him no choice in the matter? Absolutely. But he's more than receptive to that choice.

[Thanos]

Not unless a compelling alternative is presented.

As long as I can remember I've been hearing people complain that Gohan should've taken over, but he just isn't that interesting. His aversion to fighting is contrary to the cycle of the series--characters train, new villain appears, figure out a way to get stronger, beat the villain, rinse and repeat. Gohan has never been interested in training for training's sake, and for progressively stronger villains to appear while Gohan studies in his free time just wouldn't work. Don't get me wrong, I like Gohan, but he works well as a side character. He had his moment with Cell, but the story shouldn't be dependent on such a passive character. His natural Saiyan/hybrid power and Rou Kaioshin power-up make him a decent backup fighter when necessary, otherwise settling down with a family seems to fit his natural disposition.

That's why Goku and Vegeta work as protagonists so well, it makes the power-creeping of villains more believable in terms of the protagonists ability to combat new threats. Maybe a series being dependent on such a simple premise isn't the most original or complex, but that's what Dragon Ball is, for better or worse. If you had a replacement character with Goku's drive, perhaps it could work.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Except Gohan did not regress to his first version. Gohan as he was introduced did not want to fight at all. His character development was learning sometimes you have to fight to protect others. And that is entirely consistent with him still using his powers to help people during the Great Saiyaman portion. He also signed up for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai and went with Goku and Vegeta to stop Bobbodi from reviving Boo. Gohan is not his dad. He’s not constantly training to get stronger. But he will use his natural talents to help. Gohan wasn’t training in the manga during the time between Namek and Cyborg Freeza either.

Gohan's helpfullness had nothing to do with some mental roadblock. At no point did Gohan struggle with doing helpful things except when that helpful thing involved having to face a scary thing that could hurt him. Gohan helps people because he's a helpful person and well mannered kid. He also didn't go fight Babidi out of his sense of helpfulness. He went to go fight him because he was still salty about what happened to Videl.

This isn't me being a pedant. I think it's important to remember that Gohan was always inclined to be helpful and always felt terrible when he couldn't be or failed to be. Gohan's first lesson wasn't that "sometimes you need to be willing to fight." His rage fueled impulsiveness guaranteed that he would eventually jump in however stupid an idea it might be. That goes all the way back to the Saiyan Arc where he loses control and attacks Raditz. No, the first thing Gohan had to learn was how to overcome the paralyzing fear he'd feel during a dangerous situation. He accomplishes this during the fight against Nappa in the moments before Piccolo is killed. It's the very first thing he learns and it's at the start of his journey. There's a lot more to go after that.

Now, maybe I'm just crazy but it seems to me he also should have learned that complacency is dangerous. Bad things happen when you take peace for granted. In fact, he does learn that lesson before randomly forgetting it in Buu (and again in Super but whatever).

You know when Gohan actually regressed as a character? During the damn Cell Games where he suddenly refuses to fight Cell even though he’s a present threat and Gohan already saw what happens when you refuse to fight. But no it takes the pep talk and death of a character he never said two words to to get him back to his Saiyan arc development.

But that was okay because it lead to his badass moment I guess.

Yeah it's easy to forgive out of character moments and plotholes when the story uses them to build to a big climax. That's pretty normal. For example, how many people are actually bothered by Cell regrowing his top half or learning the I'm after blowing himself up? Not many. Sure it's dumb. Most everyone agrees it's dumb. But it builds towards a climax so we let it slide.

That said, personally I would have been fine with Cell dying from his own explosion. That way the final scene isn't Gohan triumphant, ready to face tomorrow but instead Gohan wallowing in his failure and grief. Would have made the Gohan we got in Buu much more believable imo Ditto Vegeta and his inferiority complex.

[PurestEvil]

Yeah it's easy to forgive out of character moments and plotholes when the story uses them to build to a big climax. That's pretty normal. For example, how many people are actually bothered by Cell regrowing his top half or learning the I'm after blowing himself up? Not many. Sure it's dumb. Most everyone agrees it's dumb. But it builds towards a climax so we let it slide.

Yeah, no. A house with unstable walls and a glamourous roof is still an unstable house. The SSJ2 transformation and Cell's death may have been badass in isolation, but they are ultimately harmed by the fact that they were preceded by occurrences that sacrifice the viewers' believability.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

You know when Gohan actually regressed as a character? During the damn Cell Games where he suddenly refuses to fight Cell even though he’s a present threat and Gohan already saw what happens when you refuse to fight. But no it takes the pep talk and death of a character he never said two words to to get him back to his Saiyan arc development.

But that was okay because it lead to his badass moment I guess.

You think a child having second thoughts before his final conclusion is regressing as a character? This was his developmental moment where he decides in full what he wants to be.

In fact I'd say that specific way of thinking is proof of the above average depth this character has in the Dragon Ball world.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

NGL Goku fans I find it ironic people keep going "Buh buh buh Gohan fans are mad cuz he not a bad azz", like you wouldn't be salty if Goku suddenly wasn't always winning anymore lol. This whole topic is based on the assumption that Goku needs to be the winner at all costs. Don't play that card here it doesn't work.

In other words, Toriyama didn't take the character in the direction you wanted.

Reading comprehension. That's not what I said or implied at all.

And if you want to go that silly route, I'm sure if the same happened to Goku you'd be salty as well. As would other people in this thread if Goku became something he wasn't.

I'm pretty sure it was never established that Gohan didn't like school or academics. His desire to help in a fight often conflicted with Chichi's overbearing desire that he focus on his studies, but he himself has never expressed that he dislikes academics.

It's not that he hated it, he just preferred to do other things and would was much more interested in doing whatever the gang was doing. This love of schooling was never shown till Buu arc. Much like most of the things regarding his new found personality.

[MasenkoHA]

NGL Goku fans I find it ironic people keep going "Buh buh buh Gohan fans are mad cuz he not a bad azz", like you wouldn't be salty if Goku suddenly wasn't always winning anymore lol. This whole topic is based on the assumption that Goku needs to be the winner at all costs. Don't play that card here it doesn't work.

Not in the slightest and I’m not sure why that’s your takeaway. It’s not Goku vs Gohan.

Goku is the main character. Toriyama attempted to make Gohan the main character only at the very twilight of Dragon Ball’s original run and then changed his mind.

And if you want to go that silly route, I'm sure if the same happened to Goku you'd be salty as well. As would other people in this thread if Goku became something he wasn't.

Well thankfully Gohan never became something he wasn’t like some martial arts obsessed dude whose always working to get stronger.

I'This love of schooling was never shown till Buu arc. Much like most of the things regarding his new found personality.

It’s almost like since the story didn’t focus on Gohan’s downtime much we never really saw much of it and once the story switched to him as the main character it became more apparent.

Most of your argument just seems based on Toei’s filler.

But I think telling Bulma and Piccolo that he wanted to be a scholar, without any prodding from Chi Chi kind of showed he did in fact enjoy academics. But since he’s in a martial arts series the fighting is the primary focus of the narrative. Especially in the much more faster paced and to the point manga.

[super michael]

Let say if somehow Goku isn't the main character anymore and someone else is the main character, that doesn't make it a spin-off. Look at Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu-Gi-Oh GX an example, even though Yugi isn't the main character of Yu-Gi-Oh GX that doesn't make it a spin-off but a continuation.

Look at Hunter X Hunter at the moment Gon isn't involved in the manga, but that doesn't make it a spin-off. In Hunter X Hunter other character gets to shine.

Gohan may not be main character material, however I believe Goten and Trunks would make for a great main character team.
Their friendship is strong, their team work is great and their ability to fuse makes them great. They are full of energy ready to fight against evil, train even in time of peace and do their own things. Plus eventually they will learn to use swords and infuse ki into their swords.

I don't see why characters can't be good at academic and fighting.

[ABED]

Gohan, age 4: “I want to be a scholar!”
Gohan, age 16- *Continues his studying habits that he can now focus full time on with no threat to mankind*

Totally different character.

"Characters only do things because they enjoy them!" "People don't respond to major events in their lives!" "It's totally normal to ignore character development if the regression is towards the very first version of the character we were introduced to!"

Vegeta turning his back on his promise (ignoring all of the events of the Cell Arc and the resolution to his conflict with M Trunks) is dumb. Gohan losing all common sense and becoming a dead weight shut in is dumb. You can't have major life events, try to pass them off as important, and then insist 'no, actually, they don't matter. They wouldn't have any impact on the character." This is so obviously stupid that even someone like, someone who spends most of their free time reading pulpy scifi, can see how dumb it is.

In the cartoon show Gargoyles one of the characters is shot because a friend came over unannounced and started playing with the gun she'd left unattended. After that moment whenever we see the character arrive home we see her remove the magazine from her weapon and place it inside a safe. According to this fandom if she had continued to leave her weapon hanging from a coat rack and gotten shot again by the same friend under the same circumstances, that would be completely in character for both. After all she likes leaving her gun lying around and her friend likes playing with guns! So it would be in character for this exact same scenario to come up again!

No. That would be stupid and if it had happened nobody would argue that it was in character. We'd call both characters complete morons.

How does Vegeta turn back on his promise?

[super michael]

Gohan, age 4: “I want to be a scholar!”
Gohan, age 16- *Continues his studying habits that he can now focus full time on with no threat to mankind*

Totally different character.

"Characters only do things because they enjoy them!" "People don't respond to major events in their lives!" "It's totally normal to ignore character development if the regression is towards the very first version of the character we were introduced to!"

Vegeta turning his back on his promise (ignoring all of the events of the Cell Arc and the resolution to his conflict with M Trunks) is dumb. Gohan losing all common sense and becoming a dead weight shut in is dumb. You can't have major life events, try to pass them off as important, and then insist 'no, actually, they don't matter. They wouldn't have any impact on the character." This is so obviously stupid that even someone like, someone who spends most of their free time reading pulpy scifi, can see how dumb it is.

In the cartoon show Gargoyles one of the characters is shot because a friend came over unannounced and started playing with the gun she'd left unattended. After that moment whenever we see the character arrive home we see her remove the magazine from her weapon and place it inside a safe. According to this fandom if she had continued to leave her weapon hanging from a coat rack and gotten shot again by the same friend under the same circumstances, that would be completely in character for both. After all she likes leaving her gun lying around and her friend likes playing with guns! So it would be in character for this exact same scenario to come up again!

No. That would be stupid and if it had happened nobody would argue that it was in character. We'd call both characters complete morons.

How does Vegeta turn back on his promise?

Maybe I am mistaken but Vegeta promise to never fight again after Cell is defeated, then in the Buu Saga he wants to fight in the Martial Art Tournament. That is the broken promise.

[ABED]

The very thing that lead to that vow isn't the case anymore. He vows to not fight since the person he's obsessed with besting is dead. Goku is alive even if only temporarily, ergo, hardly a broken promise.

[super michael]

The very thing that lead to that vow isn't the case anymore. He vows to not fight since the person he's obsessed with besting is dead. Goku is alive even if only temporarily, ergo, hardly a broken promise.

So the reason Vegeta made that promise to not fight again was because Goku was dead, but since he was temporary on earth that is why he decided to fight. Yes your right he didn't break any promise.

Thanks for refreshing my memory.

[MasenkoHA]

Let say if somehow Goku isn't the main character anymore and someone else is the main character, that doesn't make it a spin-off. Look at Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu-Gi-Oh GX an example, even though Yugi isn't the main character of Yu-Gi-Oh GX that doesn't make it a spin-off but a continuation.

I admit I’ve only seen bits and pieces of GX, I pretty much stopped watching Yugioh back in the first series when they had that really badly placed filler arc in the middle of a tournament arc but Yu-gi-oh GX pretty much has an entirely new cast of characters and its own storylines with some original characters making cameos, yes?

That would make it a spin off. Not a continuation.

Gohan may not be main character material, however I believe Goten and Trunks would make for a great main character team.

They have a side character comedy duo routine. They’re not exactly main character material.

Their friendship is strong, their team work is great and their ability to fuse makes them great. They are full of energy ready to fight against evil, train even in time of peace and do their own things. Plus eventually they will learn to use swords and infuse ki into their swords.

Now say something about their characters.

I don't see why characters can't be good at academic and fighting.

Gohan is good at both. But the point is he would rather be an academic than a fighter and doesn’t particularly care about getting stronger or finding stronger opponents. He’s not his dad.


And it just feels like fans who want Gohan to replace Goku as a main character just want him to be Goku. Albeit less of an idiot.

[Adamant]

I admit I’ve only seen bits and pieces of GX, I pretty much stopped watching Yugioh back in the first series when they had that really badly placed filler arc in the middle of a tournament arc but Yu-gi-oh GX pretty much has an entirely new cast of characters and its own storylines with some original characters making cameos, yes?

Yes. Yu-Gi-Oh is a manga that, among other things, involves the characters playing a card game that Konami turned into a real world card game and made tons of money on. When Yu-Gi-Oh ended in 2004, Konami wanted to keep the card game running, so they commissioned a second manga and anime series named Yu-Gi-Oh GX that could promote the new cards they were going to release. It had a different author, got published in a different magazine and was specifically an advertisement vehicle for the card game as opposed to a manga that had a card game based on it. And when GX ended they just kept commisioning more such card game promo series. All for the purpose of marketing the spinoff card game.

It's pretty comparable to Super Dragonball Heroes, really.

[jjgp1112]

It's not that he hated it, he just preferred to do other things and would was much more interested in doing whatever the gang was doing. This love of schooling was never shown till Buu arc. Much like most of the things regarding his new found personality.

Again, this notion only existed in filler.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

The very thing that lead to that vow isn't the case anymore. He vows to not fight since the person he's obsessed with besting is dead. Goku is alive even if only temporarily, ergo, hardly a broken promise.

So the reason Vegeta made that promise to not fight again was because Goku was dead, but since he was temporary on earth that is why he decided to fight. Yes your right he didn't break any promise.

Thanks for refreshing my memory.

But why was he training this whole time? Why was fighting still the biggest thing in life? How was Vegeta able to slide right back into the combat role after promising to leave all that behind? The Vegeta of the Buu Arc is no different than the Vegeta of the Cell Arc. Watching Trunks die, being surpassed by Gohan, being humiliated again and again for his hubris, none of it seems to have had any impact on Vegeta come the Buu years. It's why his heel turn has no weight to it. He's just being his usual self which underscores what absolute baboons Gohan and Piccolo are for leaving him around.

It's not that he hated it, he just preferred to do other things and would was much more interested in doing whatever the gang was doing. This love of schooling was never shown till Buu arc. Much like most of the things regarding his new found personality.

Again, this notion only existed in filler.

And the movies! And among the VAs! And every where else until Toriyama decided it'd be funny to blow a raspberry in everyone's face. It's no different than the Yamcha is a cheater stuff. Toriyama thought it'd be funny so that's what he went with and now the fandom is devoted to ignoring how nonsensical a turn of events that is because if something's canon it must make sense!

[Adamant]

Of course it existed among the VAs that worked on material that literally claimed this. And of course it existed among fans that watched the anime becausse the anime literally claimed this. There's ton of stuff that get claimed in the anime at some point and then contradicted by the manga. Did Toriyama think it'd be funny to blow a raspberry in everyone's face when he revealed Freeza was the one that destroyed Planet Vegeta instead of Planet Vegeta's god like Kaio had claimed in some filler scene?

[WittyUsername]

I don’t think Toriyama was trying to troll anyone when he contradicted stuff shown in anime filler and the movies. I think it’s more likely that he just had his own ideas, and probably didn’t even pay much attention to that stuff. He also contradicted the Bardock special, even though he made it clear that he’s a big fan of it, which, ironically, is the only reason Bardock even appeared in the original manga at all.

[jjgp1112]

The very thing that lead to that vow isn't the case anymore. He vows to not fight since the person he's obsessed with besting is dead. Goku is alive even if only temporarily, ergo, hardly a broken promise.

So the reason Vegeta made that promise to not fight again was because Goku was dead, but since he was temporary on earth that is why he decided to fight. Yes your right he didn't break any promise.

Thanks for refreshing my memory.

But why was he training this whole time? Why was fighting still the biggest thing in life? How was Vegeta able to slide right back into the combat role after promising to leave all that behind? The Vegeta of the Buu Arc is no different than the Vegeta of the Cell Arc. Watching Trunks die, being surpassed by Gohan, being humiliated again and again for his hubris, none of it seems to have had any impact on Vegeta come the Buu years. It's why his heel turn has no weight to it. He's just being his usual self which underscores what absolute baboons Gohan and Piccolo are for leaving him around.

It's not that he hated it, he just preferred to do other things and would was much more interested in doing whatever the gang was doing. This love of schooling was never shown till Buu arc. Much like most of the things regarding his new found personality.

Again, this notion only existed in filler.

And the movies! And among the VAs! And every where else until Toriyama decided it'd be funny to blow a raspberry in everyone's face. It's no different than the Yamcha is a cheater stuff. Toriyama thought it'd be funny so that's what he went with and now the fandom is devoted to ignoring how nonsensical a turn of events that is because if something's canon it must make sense!

Huh? Toriyama constantly ignored anime filler throughout the shows entire run. The Gohan sneaking away from studying stuff was material Toei made out of thin air when the manga never suggested he behaved this way.

Toei tended to pigeonhole characters into cliche archetypes when it came to filler. Gohan as the little rascal who wants to be a free spirit but his mom wants his nose in the book and ties him down is right there in the pile with Son Jesusku friend to all nature and comic relief punching bag (complete with a wacky catchphrase!) Krillin.