Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

[Zephyr]

There's no way Majin Vegeta could have prevented Goku from turning into SSJ3 if the later decided to use it.

Nothing suggests that Vegeta would have tried to stop the transformation, either, given that he was looking forward to seeing how strong Goku got:

[Koitsukai]

Also, that clip is anime only.
Goku didn't need to show SS3 to the kids, they weren't doubting his power in the manga, they got convinced when they felt SS3's power, and was never seen panting as a SS3, according to Toriyama.
Don't know what that clip is supposed to prove. If anything, it proves that even for the anime, his first usage of SS3 was more than capable of taking care of Vegeta, and a second, troublesome(anime only) turn at the form wouldn't have been needed.

[dva_raza]

Don't know what that clip is supposed to prove.

I thought it would be clear inside of the context in which I linked that.
It's supposed to prove that Goku wasn’t used to the form and the sole process drains him almost immediately as shown in the part I timestamped.

"Vegeta could have attacked and Goku loses the transformation, the end"

1 -That never ever happens in this franchise and you know it lol. Whenever a character transforms into a higher form weaker characters can't do anything to prevent it. Trunks couldn't prevent Cell from going Perfect as he was transforming, no one could stop Freeza in Namek from reaching his final form, etc. There's no way Majin Vegeta could have prevented Goku from turning into SSJ3 if the later decided to use it.

2- And Goku is never shown second guessing any of his decisions in the Buu saga. He knows exactly what needs to be done from the start yet choose otherwise for his own selfish reasons. There no way Goku could look innocent here.

1 - I don't know what it is you're responding to there. The point of the clip was to show Goku was not used to the form. Which is literally what I said just above the link. And yes, any vulnerable moment would be an opportunity for Vegeta to attack and make Goku lose the transformation.
2 – Again, you've given no justification for any of that, repeating it doesn't magically make it factual.


Anyway.
I love how you simply avoided answering my question TWICE.
So I’ll take that as, you have no answer.

Basically there’s no coherent explanation for WHY Goku would lie to Krillin about “not being able to do anything” while having ss3 in universe. At least you haven’t given any, (the kids fusing, in case you missed it, weren't in his thoughts until Mr Popo gave that idea at the END of that scene, so you can’t use that as motive for this), therefore your version makes this scene stand out like a sore thumb.

In my version it doesn’t. My version is Goku was unsure of the form, that’s it, it’s not that deep. He didn’t want to risk something that he haven’t used and (wasn’t even supposed to be using) on earth as there were few things that could’ve gone wrong.
He didn’t use it before starting the fight with Vegeta beause he didn’t think he would need it, he didn't use it during the fight because he was insecure about the time consumption and Vegeta’s possible reaction, and he didn't consider it for use in the scene with Krillin because again, the time consumption. Basically it’s something that you have, but is unusable. Which ironically is what Ssj3 ended up being overall.

Nothing suggests that Vegeta would have tried to stop the transformation either, given that he was looking forward to seeing how strong Goku got

Yeah nothing except basic common sense and Vegeta’s history which I explained in detail.
Vegeta always welcomes an opponent's upgrade until he doesn’t.

Vegeta talks his usual talk before knowing the opponents potential cause he's feeling confident.
But after Goku and Vegeta have been at it for while, they both know they’re on the same level.
A sudden upgrade from Goku means Vegeta lost the fight.
There would be no logical reason for him to stand there and let a transformation he knows he’s not gonna beat happen just to get a look at it.
Sure he might be so stunned that he would just freeze and do no nothing, my point is, why the fuck should Goku be sure about his possible reaction?
He can't be. He knows Vegeta can be a cheater, is generally unpredictable, and is at that moment salty as shit.
It pretty arbitrary to just determine as some sort of fact that Goku should not have had any doubt at all about how Vegeta would react given the circumstances.




Another question nobody has answered is: What's exactly the full plan?

Can anybody tell me what would be the point in making this dude think he has a chance at beating him for a little while only to ultimately crush him?
If Goku knows the end result will be the same, which is: Vegeta loses and is unsatisfied, then what is the point in wasting precious time giving Vegeta a "fair fight" exactly?

[jjgp1112]

I mean, you said it yourself: Vegeta welcomes a transformation until he doesn't lol. He would've just assumed Goku was copping pleas until the moment he sensed his power at the end of the transfomration just like he did against Frieza and Cell. Then he would've spammed energy blasts before falling to his knees and probably crying because he just realized he sold his soul to a sentient rat just to still be nowhere even close to Kakarot's level.

As Vegeta himself posited, Golu likely humored Vegeta with an even battle out of pity. Fighting Goku to a stalemate or barely losing would probably go down a lot easier than being squashed like a jug.

[dva_raza]

I mean, you said it yourself: Vegeta welcomes a transformation until he doesn't lol. He would've just assumed Goku was copping pleas until the moment he sensed his power at the end of the transfomration just like he did against Frieza and Cell. Then he would've spammed energy blasts before falling to his knees and probably crying because he just realized he sold his soul to a sentient rat just to still be nowhere even close to Kakarot's level.

The point of arguing wether or not Vegeta would've stopped Goku was only to understand wether Goku COULD have doubt about Vegeta’s reaction or not.

Goku did not see Vegeta’s antics with Cell and Frieza. You did.
So none of what you're mentioning is something that Goku should know would happen and therefore decide it's totally safe to transform. Like I said, considering Vegeta’s salty, erratic, unpredictable state at the time, and also the fact that he tends to “cheat” very frequently Goku might've very well thought “I better not, cuz this dude is crazy”.

Golu likely humored Vegeta with an even battle out of pity. Fighting Goku to a stalemate or barely losing would probably go down a lot easier than being squashed like a jug.

Alright, so you say the motive would be to “give him stalemate instead of crushing him”.

Basically with one option Vegeta would be sad. But with the other option he would be very very sad.

If you believe that Goku decided it’s worth it to waste limited time in a situation with latent danger, and entertain this guy after he just murdered a bunch of people, ALL JUST so he can give him a “stalemate instead of crushing him”, because the difference seems like something of enough weight to you then we can just agree to disagree I guess because to me that seems like a veeery poor motive for him to even consider going through the trouble.
Goku was pissed in case you didn't notice, when Vegeta kills half the stadium. He didn't need to make Vegeta feel "less crushed" nor to have fun himself. This isn't Namek. All his people actually live here. And he has limited time. Why is he gonna waste it to do something in which difference in the outcome is barely significant? This version doesn’t actually make any sense if you think about for 2 seconds.



And also you still haven't answered WHY Goku would lie to Krillin. What is he thinking there?

He was withholding the transformation to not hurt Vegeta’s pride. Now Vegeta is gone. And he has the transformation.
Give me an explanation of this otherwise your version is officially unsustainable, I don’t care how popular it is. There's simply no sense in him just sitting there literally sweating with worry about the fact that he can't do anything if he has the transformation "in his pocket" and you can’t just ignore scenes according to convenience to form a narrative that you intend to claim as the “correct” one which is what you're doing.

[Zephyr]

Vegeta welcomes a transformation until he doesn't lol. He would've just assumed Goku was copping pleas until the moment he sensed his power at the end of the transfomration just like he did against Frieza and Cell. Then he would've spammed energy blasts before falling to his knees and probably crying because he just realized he sold his soul to a sentient rat just to still be nowhere even close to Kakarot's level.

As Vegeta himself posited, Golu likely humored Vegeta with an even battle out of pity. Fighting Goku to a stalemate or barely losing would probably go down a lot easier than being squashed like a jug.

To be fair, while getting a power-up and reaching what he thought was Goku's level was a reason for letting himself be possessed, it wasn't the only reason.

One of the reasons given is so that their fight could happen at all:


Vegeta also says that he wanted to be ruthless, cold-blooded, aggressive, and evil again:


Further, to eliminate compassion:


So I mean, even if Goku whipped out Super Saiyan 3 on him and showed the gap to still not be closed by the possession, at least Vegeta still would have succeeded in going sicko mode and getting Goku to fight him I guess.

It's possible that Goku was partly humoring Vegeta, that he for some reason thought this wasn't the moment to whip Super Saiyan 3 out (even though it was), that he thought he wouldn't be able to stop Vegeta with it (even though everything suggests that he would have), and that Goku wanted at least a good match with someone somewhere (dude was smiling before and during their fight). People do things for multiple reasons, just as Vegeta let himself get possessed for multiple reasons.

[jjgp1112]

I mean, you said it yourself: Vegeta welcomes a transformation until he doesn't lol. He would've just assumed Goku was copping pleas until the moment he sensed his power at the end of the transfomration just like he did against Frieza and Cell. Then he would've spammed energy blasts before falling to his knees and probably crying because he just realized he sold his soul to a sentient rat just to still be nowhere even close to Kakarot's level.

The point of arguing wether or not Vegeta would've stopped Goku was only to understand wether Goku COULD have doubt about Vegeta’s reaction or not.

Goku did not see Vegeta’s antics with Cell and Frieza. You did.
So none of what you're mentioning is something that Goku should know would happen and therefore decide it's totally safe to transform. Like I said, considering Vegeta’s salty, erratic, unpredictable state at the time, and also the fact that he tends to “cheat” very frequently Goku might've very well thought “I better not, cuz this dude is crazy”.

Golu likely humored Vegeta with an even battle out of pity. Fighting Goku to a stalemate or barely losing would probably go down a lot easier than being squashed like a jug.

Alright, so you say the motive would be to “give him stalemate instead of crushing him”.

Basically with one option Vegeta would be sad. But with the other option he would be very very sad.

If you believe that Goku decided it’s worth it to waste limited time in a situation with latent danger, and entertain this guy after he just murdered a bunch of people, ALL JUST so he can give him a “stalemate instead of crushing him”, because the difference seems like something of enough weight to you then we can just agree to disagree I guess because to me that seems like a veeery poor motive for him to even consider going through the trouble.
Goku was pissed in case you didn't notice, when Vegeta kills half the stadium. He didn't need to make Vegeta feel "less crushed" nor to have fun himself. This isn't Namek. All his people actually live here. And he has limited time. Why is he gonna waste it to do something in which difference in the outcome is barely significant? This version doesn’t actually make any sense if you think about for 2 seconds.



And also you still haven't answered WHY Goku would lie to Krillin. What is he thinking there?

He was withholding the transformation to not hurt Vegeta’s pride. Now Vegeta is gone. And he has the transformation.
Give me an explanation of this otherwise your version is officially unsustainable, I don’t care how popular it is. There's simply no sense in him just sitting there literally sweating with worry about the fact that he can't do anything if he has the transformation "in his pocket" and you can’t just ignore scenes according to convenience to form a narrative that you intend to claim as the “correct” one which is what you're doing.

I have argued time and time again in this thread that Goku's actions don't really make much sense and the narrative unintentionally paints him in a bad, stupid light.

I don't know why Goku lied to Krillin. But he did. And whatever justification you can come up with doesn't hold up to scrutiny. He said he was saving Super Saiyan 3 for an emergency scenario...and the awful doomsday situation was the very moment they were in. Shit, when he finally did use it, it was for a much less grave scenario and purely did it to waste time with no intention of actually finishing the job (and even THAT has a massive hole in logic! If he wanted to have enough time to save he Dragon Radar from West City he could've just done that thing he does where he can instantly pop up somewhere and grab it without sending Trunks to try and outrace Buu and Babidi. Goku's stupid!)

Why indeed would Goku waste time pitying Vegeta in an urgent situation? You're right - it doesn't make sense! Which is kind of why I've been arguing that this partially Goku's fault. Considering the fact that Goku himself had no good answer when Vegeta accused him of doing exactly that...well...

You keep saying that Goku's justified in not using Super Saiyan 3 when necessary but the math ain't mathing. None of his actions line up with your idea that he was doing the best he could...and the idea that he thought Vegeta would try to prevent his transformation is a reach you made up to justify his inaction.

Take your problems with my logic up with your boy.

[dva_raza]

Shit, when he finally did use it, it was for a much less grave scenario and purely did it to waste time with no intention of actually finishing the job (and even THAT has a massive hole in logic! If he wanted to have enough time to save he Dragon Radar from West City he could've just done that thing he does where he can instantly pop up somewhere and grab it without sending Trunks to try and outrace Buu and Babidi. Goku's stupid!)

He couldn’t instant transmit to the house because Bluma’s parents barely have a ki brah.

As for the finishing the job against Buu, it’s not a hole in logic. He did try and he wasn’t enough. We saw that. This of course means that what he tells Vegeta later on is in fact BS. “I probably could have beaten Buu” was an enhancement. Maybe he could have if he tried harder, but if it’s literally shown that he was NOT winning against Buu then he didn’t stop himself from “finishing the job” like you say, he just stopped from trying further to leave it to the kids, so it not even contradictory..

And also now that you bring this scene with Buu,
I don’t know what could be a clearer confirmation that Goku never tried to fool Vegeta than the fact that after Vegeta’s gone he still doesn’t wanna use the transformation..??? I mean how is this being ignored?

He says “I really don’t want to use this transformation because I’ll pay a high price for it”. Whatever that means lol, but it’s a confirmation than not using it against Vegeta had nothing to do with indulging anyone. Goku was clearly avoiding to the fullest using SS3. King Kai also yells for him not to do it!
Yet yall here think you know better than King Kai and cast Goku as irresponsable or “selfish”?

Goku himself had no good answer when Vegeta accused him of doing exactly that...

Lol dude why is it not a "good answer"?!
He literally told Vegeta the motive for which, yes he has a new form (hence the guilty face), but he could not use it.
I honestly didn’t even think of it any other way until it was brought up here. You’re maybe perceiving it like a lame excuse because of the english dub, in spanish and the original he doesn’t say it like that at all.

You keep saying that Goku's justified in not using Super Saiyan 3 when necessary but the math ain't mathing. None of his actions line up with your idea that he was doing the best he could..and the idea that he thought Vegeta would try to prevent his transformation is a reach you made up to justify his inaction..

It’s not mathing in your version, for sure. I have actually explained every scene you’ve brought up and how it fits fine in mine, you ignoring it is another thing.

The “I was saving it for an emergency”, (which by the way, where does he say this? Cause I just saw the Piccolo scene which is where I thought he had said it, but he didn’t), is not a contradiction in my version.
It’s an extreme transformation and he thought he could beat Vegeta without it, this is factual. Then with Krillin he thinks he can't use it now because of the time consumption. Then he goes to confront Buu to distract him and still doesn’t intent to use it. But Trunks is taking too long and Goku literally says “fuck, I have no choice”, and decides to use it for the first time to entertain Buu. What is it that's not matching for you?

And the second part, I mean yeah, it's my interpretation, same as you saying "Goku was THINKING this", "Goku KNEW that" which are also made up. I never said it was a fact, it was only one of a few examples for which I said it's possible for Goku to have doubts and you haven't told me exactly what is so unthinkable about it, you just reject it, which is different.

[Shorty GZ2]

Bruh this might be the wackest thread I've ever seen, what even is this argument going on lmao

"Yet yall here think you know better than King Kai and cast Goku as irresponsable or “selfish”?" Like huh? I mean, yes? Kaio's a character in the story we do know better than lol, SS3 in retrospect changes the context of Goku throughout the arc

[dva_raza]

Like huh?

You're missing 11 pages of context, of course you're confused.

[Shorty GZ2]

Aight then, break it down to the basics, what's the main issue between these 2 walls of discussion I'm seeing here (even though yes, I did catch up on all 11 pages of this spat)

[dva_raza]

Aight then, break it down to the basics, what's the main issue between these 2 walls of discussion I'm seeing here (even though yes, I did catch up on all 11 pages of this spat)

The very basics, I have been saying for the most of this discussion that Goku wasn't trying to fool Vegeta, and that instead he simply restrained to be be cautious and do things the right way.

People on the opposing side say it's a fact that Goku was restraining to indulge Vegeta, basically being irresponsable.
I've made several points for which I say that not only that's literally never confirmed by anything other than Vegeta's accusation but that also, that narrative make certain other scenes make zero sense, while with my version that's doesn't actually happen.

As for the King Kai comment that is only the latest point that I noticed that reaffirms Goku wasn't the only one not wanting to use the form. If King Kai yells for him not to do it just before he does, then that just adds to the premise of Goku being reluctant because of feelings of concern, not because he wanted to play around with Vegeta.

Also worth noting that this is in fact a ridiculous tangent as I can see you've noticed and that's why I've kept asking why is everyone fixated on Goku's balme percentage like that had any effect to the point in which Vegeta chose to get possessed.
That still remains unanswered lol.

[Shorty GZ2]

I see, I see.

[MrGohanks]

Aight then, break it down to the basics, what's the main issue between these 2 walls of discussion I'm seeing here (even though yes, I did catch up on all 11 pages of this spat)

The very basics, I have been saying for the most of this discussion that Goku wasn't trying to fool Vegeta, and that instead he simply restrained to be be cautious and do things the right way.

People on the opposing side say it's a fact that Goku was restraining to indulge Vegeta, basically being irresponsable.
I've made several points for which I say that not only that's literally never confirmed by anything other than Vegeta's accusation but that also, that narrative make certain other scenes make zero sense, while with my version that's doesn't actually happen.

As for the King Kai comment that is only the latest point that I noticed that reaffirms Goku wasn't the only one not wanting to use the form. If King Kai yells for him not to do it just before he does, then that just adds to the premise of Goku being reluctant because of feelings of concern, not because he wanted to play around with Vegeta.

Also worth noting that this is in fact a ridiculous tangent as I can see you've noticed and that's why I've kept asking why is everyone fixated on Goku's balme percentage like that had any effect to the point in which Vegeta chose to get possessed.
That still remains unanswered lol.

The fact that you continue to deny the obvious reality of the situation is absurd.

You keep ignoring the simple fact that Goku could have just pulled out SSJ3 to smack down Vegeta whenever he wanted, preventing the entire Buu saga from ever happening. And even if Fat Buu somehow still got released, SSJ3 Goku has proven to be much stronger than him anyway yet choose not to kill him.

You'd have to be the biggest Goku fanboy in the world to think Goku isn't accountable for anything that went wrong in the Buu saga. Hell, Goku doesn't even deny any of Vegeta's accusations when the later returns to fight Super Buu.

[Skar]

I think they're both partially responsible but maybe it leans towards Vegeta being more at fault. Goku could've used SSJ3 to defeat Majin Vegeta or attempt to kill Fat Buu but his reasons for not making those decisions weren't really selfish. Vegeta gave in to Babidi, decided to fight Goku instead of killing Babidi first, and knocked out Goku when he offered to fight Buu together. I still think they made up for their mistakes by working together to kill Buu in the end. In DB, as long as you help fix the problem then no one really gets blamed.

[dva_raza]

The fact that you continue to deny the obvious reality of the situation is absurd.

You keep ignoring the simple fact that Goku could have just pulled out SSJ3 to smack down Vegeta whenever he wanted, preventing the entire Buu saga from ever happening. And even if Fat Buu somehow still got released, SSJ3 Goku has proven to be much stronger than him anyway yet choose not to kill him.

You'd have to be the biggest Goku fanboy in the world to think Goku isn't accountable for anything that went wrong in the Buu saga. Hell, Goku doesn't even deny any of Vegeta's accusations when the later returns to fight Super Buu.

...you trolling me or what?

The only “obvious reality” there IS, if you wanna go there, (and it’s something I never once even mentioned in this conversation), is the fact that Goku literally and factually HAS no SSJ3 in that scene. So lets cut the crap already.

IF Toriyama wanted to make a confirmation about Goku’s motive he had many chances to do that. The closest thing he offered as a motive, is Goku telling Vegeta what his motive was!
That's right. He didn’t deny that he repressed because it's correct: he had it and he didn’t use it (he repressed it). He never confirmed “pitying” Vegeta. I’m not a “fanboy” just because I care about facts.
I HAVE said Goku is responsable for countless things. But I restate for the millionth time, Majin Buu got released because of Vegeta’s decision.

Your claim that Goku was deliberately being an idiot during his fight with Geta is HEADCANON.

The creation of Super Saiyan 3 came along with an explanation of how it works stamina wise. Why in the fuck would Toriyama add that detail for no reason if not SPECIFICALLY to use that to explain the retcon he knew it will create in retrospective?

Sure you think the motive is REALLY that Goku had some deep desire to protect Vegeta's feelings, that’s awesome, but it’s not something that has been confirmed NOR is it something that even makes sense! Yall had pages to prove your theory but you didn’t. So get over it and get on topic already. It’s been like 2 months lmao

[dva_raza]

I think they're both partially responsible but maybe it leans towards Vegeta being more at fault. Goku could've used SSJ3 to defeat Majin Vegeta or attempt to kill Fat Buu but his reasons for not making those decisions weren't really selfish.

looool. "MAYBE"?

The fault for Majin Buu being released is...maybe leaning on Vegeta? C'mon now. What is happening..

Vegeta knew they were about to eliminate Buu. It was a done deal.
But he chose to stop that from happening. First by getting possessed and then by murdering the audience and threatening Goku to fight him, knowing that would imply Buu could get out.

There is no way one could spin any of this to somehow it being “Goku’s fault too”.
Vegeta CAUSED what happened.
Goku didn’t CAUSE anything. His role is a completely different one in this scenario.

Like the only reason one could have for blaming him is if it was a confirmed fact that Goku prolonged his fight with Vegeta selfishly (although STILL, that would be for exacerbating the situation, not for causing it). But it’s just NOT confirmed, sorry. From what I see Goku did the best he could and literally nothing in canon suggests otherwise. He didn’t know to which extent the stamina consumption will be and he didn’t want to risk it. That’s the only thing that is ever actually stated as a motive.

[Skar]

looool. "MAYBE"?

The fault for Majin Buu being released is...maybe leaning on Vegeta? C'mon now. What is happening

Well I like to use "maybe" because I don't like implying my opinion is definitive. I tried explaining why I thought Vegeta was more at fault which kinda agreed with your points. If Vegeta stayed home that day or resisted Babidi, they would've killed Dabura and Babidi preventing Buu from being released. Vegeta was the main cause but I just meant that Goku is still responsible for his decisions even though they weren't for selfish reasons.

Most likely SSJ3 was created later after their battle since there's not really an in-universe explanation why he didn't use it against Vegeta. Even if he wasn't sure about SSJ3, he would've only needed it to last a second to knockout Vegeta then his SSJ2 would've been enough to kill Dabura. He still wouldn't have been in that position of needing to consider SSJ3 at all if not for Vegeta.

My point in the end though was that it's not really necessary to argue who's most at fault because they fixed it in the end and no one blamed them. The story considered it enough that Vegeta risked being wiped out of existence to help defeat Buu. When they returned to the Lookout, they were just greeted by their families and went home. In a different series with lasting consequences and no resurrections, maybe they would've been held more accountable for their actions but not here.

[dva_raza]

looool. "MAYBE"?

The fault for Majin Buu being released is...maybe leaning on Vegeta? C'mon now. What is happening

Well I like to use "maybe" because I don't like implying my opinion is definitive. I tried explaining why I thought Vegeta was more at fault which kinda agreed with your points.

Nah I'm sorry but there isn't a "maybe" here nor are they "partially responsable" for Vegeta deciding to get possessed. What triggers a situation is the cause of that situation, not whatever happens after that.

Goku is still responsible for his decisions even though they weren't for selfish reasons.
Even if he wasn't sure about SSJ3, he would've only needed it to last a second to knockout Vegeta then his SSJ2 would've been enough to kill Dabura. He still wouldn't have been in that position of needing to consider SSJ3 at all if not for Vegeta

OK so all of that has been brought up and refuted already with the simple reason that it's all a bunch of judgement you're making as spectators.

The bolded part, that's something you know, that's not something Goku should have known that would happen and therefore decide it's safe to transform.

He had literally not used that form outside from where he learned it. Why exactly should he even know how the sole transformation process will be? How his body will take it, how welcoming Vegeta might be to it, etc. I mean it took him 5 fuckin minutes the first time he does it.

Toriyama added the following details for a reason:
The form is draining, it works very differently with the non physical body, and Goku happens to have limited time. (That on top of having Goku straight up telling Vegeta the why he couldn't use it.)

So then who are you to be judging someone for how he managed a situation that required him to use something only he knows how to use? Like again, you think you know because you've seen it now. For him it was a completely new thing, and he didn't want to take the risk.

I repeat, if even King Kai yells for him NOT to do it, just before he does it the first time, then probably that like...means more than whatever you are all injecting and projecting?

My point in the end though was that it's not really necessary to argue who's most at fault because they fixed it in the end and no one blamed them.

Why "them" though?



A reminder of what the topic was:

""Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ"" by super michael
""Lets think about it for a moment, Vegeta in DBZ has done so many things wrong yet he was given was many chance. Here are the examples:""
(Followed by a list of Vegeta's transgressions)


So.... maybe I misunderstood something here, but I had ASSUMED super michael's intention was to discuss.. WHY Vegeta is given so many chances..??? .... Not to dismantle to the core only ONE of the points he listed to determine whether or not Goku should or should not have used a form Toriyama didn't even think about at that moment...?!

[Skar]

I repeat, if even King Kai yells for him NOT to do it, just before he does it the first time, then probably that like...means more than whatever you are all injecting and projecting?

What am I projecting exactly? Relax buddy. I recall King Kai only warned Goku that it would drain his remaining time on Earth. Goku seemed confident he could keep Buu occupied long enough for Trunks retrieve the Dragon Radar. Goku knew SSJ3 was unstable but the time he would've needed to knockout Vegeta would've been less than stalling Buu.

So.... maybe I misunderstood something here, but I had ASSUMED super michael's intention was to discuss.. WHY Vegeta is given so many chances..??? .... Not to dismantle to the core only ONE of the points he listed to determine whether or not Goku should or should not have used a form Toriyama didn't even think about at that moment...?!

I think that reasoning applies to most of those points. Why was Vegeta given so many chances? After the Saiyan saga, he helped out enough and most of people he was involved in killing were resurrected. The Nameks he killed weren't wished back but they were never brought up again in DBZ. Same with the countless billions or maybe trillions he killed while working for Freeza. He was slowing changing his ways so he has given another chance each time. I'm not saying that he deserved all those chances or the way the characters reacted to him was realistic and only explaining why I think they don't hold him accountable after that. As long as he helped fix the problem and took more responsibility, they seemed willing to forgive him.