The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Ginyu, Jaco, Beerus, Great Saiyaman (last man standing dance-off)

[h0kuten]

Kurririn
a) Scratches
b) Couldn't stand
c) Huffing and puffing

Tenshinhan
a) Scratches

Master Roshi
a) Scratches
b) Huffing and pudding

Piccolo
a) Nothing

Gohan
a) Nothing
b) Freeza states Gohan could beat all of the soldiers by himself easily. Debunking people who say he was worn out.

Jaco
a) Nothing
b) He was getting swarmed from all his sides and therefore wasn't deciding who he was fighting.

Piccolo had scratches as well. Scratches are irrelevant, even after they ate the Senzus they still had them. Kuririn could stand, after Gohan takes care of his batch for him, he goes on to eliminate a few more that Roshi could barely handle alone, Kuririn wasn't huffing and puffing, either. The scratches on his body also miraculously disappear when he's fighting with Jaco, then reappear again. Roshi was the one who got hit the most by far, he got knocked down like 2 or 3 times, more than anyone else. Jaco didn't decide who he was fighting, but his batch also got eaten by a giant fish, so they weren't too strong, now were they?

Kuririn got blasted in the trees and fell on his ass, thanking Gohan that he just saved his ass. No, Kuririn couldn't stand and was huffing and puffing. I have the entire movie in HD on my computer.

Jaco & Kuririn fought the same batch at the end of the fight. Jaco wasn't worn out, on his ass or had battle marks. Kuririn did. What they are trying to tell us is that Jaco is stronger than Tienshinhan, Roshi & Kuririn.

Jaco is the Galactis Patrol, not a weak earthling.

[Doctor.]

Kuririn wasn't blasted, he was running (well, flying) away from the blasts and hit a tree (because what's Kuririn without a scene of him failing?), then he got saved by Gohan. Do you know what he does 2 minutes later? Go on to save Roshi's ass by taking care of a bunch of soldiers for him. Do you know what happens 5 seconds later? The scratches on his body disappear as him and Jaco take care of soldiers side-by-side, both of them with NO scratches on them. Clearly, he COULD stand, and DID stand, and did FIGHT after the incident you're talking about.

And I don't care if you have the movie on your computer in "HD", you can literally go to Youtube right now and see that he wasn't huffing and puffing like you proclaim, not in one instance in that scene.

Piccolo had scratches on his body too, let's call Jaco stronger than Piccolo while we're at it.

[Lord Beerus]

Ginyu, Jaco, Beerus, Great Saiyaman (last man standing dance-off)

The God Of Destruction has got this in the bag.

[ZombieVito]

I don't bother to try and fit what the movies have said with pre-established content, as they sure as hell didn't care about something as unimportant as power levels.

Grandpa Gohan & Muten Roshi vs Mutaito

Since you are not specifying which version of the characters I'll do this.

Roshi [22TB, buffed] >> Roshi [22TB] >> Mutaito >> Roshi [Young] ~= Son Gohan [Dead] >>> Roshi [21st TB] > Son Gohan [At time of death].

[Captain Space]

Ginyu, Jaco, Beerus, Great Saiyaman (last man standing dance-off)

Beerus, with Jaco as a close-ish second.

EDIT: Accidentally wrote "Ginyu" instead of "Beerus" at first, whoops.

[h0kuten]

Kuririn wasn't blasted, he was running (well, flying) away from the blasts and hit a tree (because what's Kuririn without a scene of him failing?), then he got saved by Gohan. Do you know what he does 2 minutes later? Go on to save Roshi's ass by taking care of a bunch of soldiers for him. Do you know what happens 5 seconds later? The scratches on his body disappear as him and Jaco take care of soldiers side-by-side. Clearly, he COULD stand, and DID stand, and did FIGHT after the incident you're talking about.

And I don't care if you have the movie on BitTorrent, you can literally go to Youtube right now and see that he wasn't huffing and puffing like you proclaim, not in one instance in that scene.

a) Saved by Gohan and says he would have died had Gohan not saved him.
b) Needs a break because he's too weak (due to not training) to keep up.
c) Jaco needs no break and effortlessly handles himself the entire time.
d) Feats and art-work are there to show us who is superior to who, not fan speculation.

Jaco > All the humans

It's an uncontradicted fact from the feats. Feats over-ride statements on any forum, from Comic-Vine to Neoseeker ect.

[Doctor.]

a) Saved by Gohan and says he would have died had Gohan not saved him.

Yea, you're better off not arguing dialogue until the japanese version is released. I'm pretty sure you're taking that off from the poorly subtitled mexican version that's out at the moment. The Brazilian dub, for instance, says nothing about Kuririn almost "dying".

b) Needs a break because he's too weak (due to not training) to keep up.

Complete assumption.

c) Jaco needs no break and effortlessly handles himself the entire time.

Against soldiers who got beat by a random giant fish, yes. Your point is?

d) Feats and art-work are there to show us who is superior to who, not fan speculation.

You keep ignoring that Piccolo had scratches on his body too. So, again, will you say that Jaco is superior to him, or will you not?

Jaco > All the humans

It's an uncontradicted fact from the feats.

From your assumptions you mean, you can think that, but nothing is ever a fact when it comes to strength debates no matter how hard you try to say it is. Jaco, if anything, has been portrayed in the film to be a worthy ally at the same level as the humans. In the script, Toriyama constantly makes reference to how surprising that Jaco is keeping up in the fight. In his own manga, he didn't even have the power to handle an adult Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

c) Jaco needs no break and effortlessly handles himself the entire time.

By running away....

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Roshi [22TB, buffed] >> Roshi [22TB] >> Mutaito >> Roshi [Young]

I personally disagree with 22nd TB Roshi being stronger than Prime Roshi because of this quote:

Chapter: 135, P6.1
Kame-sennin: “Despite the cute name, [Piccolo] was an outrageously fearsome person…His strength was extremely overwhelming…[ ] He was an opponent we were utterly unable to oppose; not only my younger self or Tsuru-sennin, but even our master, Mutaito.

The way he talks about his younger self and younger Tsuru-sennin makes it sound as though they're even stronger than himself now.

[Doctor.]

Roshi [22TB, buffed] >> Roshi [22TB] >> Mutaito >> Roshi [Young]

I personally disagree with 22nd TB Roshi being stronger than Prime Roshi because of this quote:

Chapter: 135, P6.1
Kame-sennin: “Despite the cute name, [Piccolo] was an outrageously fearsome person…His strength was extremely overwhelming…[ ] He was an opponent we were utterly unable to oppose; not only my younger self or Tsuru-sennin, but even our master, Mutaito.

The way he talks about his younger self and younger Tsuru-sennin makes it sound as though they're even stronger than himself now.

Prime Roshi took 3 years to get Karin's water, did he not? The Roshi in the 22nd TB is stronger than the Goku who took 3 days.

[ZombieVito]

Roshi [22TB, buffed] >> Roshi [22TB] >> Mutaito >> Roshi [Young]

I personally disagree with 22nd TB Roshi being stronger than Prime Roshi because of this quote:

Chapter: 135, P6.1
Kame-sennin: “Despite the cute name, [Piccolo] was an outrageously fearsome person…His strength was extremely overwhelming…[ ] He was an opponent we were utterly unable to oppose; not only my younger self or Tsuru-sennin, but even our master, Mutaito.

The way he talks about his younger self and younger Tsuru-sennin makes it sound as though they're even stronger than himself now.

Prime Roshi took 3 years to get Karin's water, did he not? The Roshi in the 22nd TB is stronger than the Goku who took 3 days.

Exactly. I always put Primer Roshi around that Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't think that has to be Prime Roshi, just a younger incarnation of himself. Plus imagine how strong he got after those 3 years.

Master Roshi's statement just seems odd if he's much stronger than his Prime self.

[h0kuten]

a) Saved by Gohan and says he would have died had Gohan not saved him.

Yea, you're better off not arguing dialogue until the japanese version is released. I'm pretty sure you're taking that off from the poorly subtitled mexican version that's out at the moment. The Brazilian dub, for instance, says nothing about Kuririn almost "dying".

Kuririn needs a break and almost got his by several Chi blasts. Of course he would of died.

b) Needs a break because he's too weak (due to not training) to keep up.

Complete assumption.

Gohan says he needs a break and Kuririn doesn't contradict him. Statements are true until contradicted. Feats also show it to be true. So it's concrete evidence that Kuririn was so worn out he needed a break.

c) Jaco needs no break and effortlessly handles himself the entire time.

Against soldiers who got beat by a random giant fish, yes. Your point is?

Jaco needs no break and isn't battle worn, but Kuririn is. It's seeming evidence that Jaco is superior to Kuririn.

d) Feats and art-work are there to show us who is superior to who, not fan speculation.

You keep ignoring that Piccolo had scratches on his body too. So, again, will you say that Jaco is superior to him, or will you not?

I'll post 2 scans of Piccolo before he fights Shisami and after he gets hit by Shisami to prove Piccolo only got those scratches from Shasami to debunk that argument

Jaco > All the humans

It's an uncontradicted fact from the feats.

From your assumptions you mean, you can think that, but nothing is ever a fact when it comes to strength debates no matter how hard you try to say it is. Jaco, if anything, has been portrayed in the film to be a worthy ally at the same level as the humans. In the script, Toriyama constantly makes reference to how surprising that Jaco is keeping up in the fight. In his own manga, he didn't even have the power to handle an adult Saiyan.

I proved it in all my points above, also Piccolo's scratches prove that the art damage the characters receive are to show us, the audience, who is stronger than who.

[Doctor.]

Of course he would of died.

Kuririn was so worn out he needed a break.

´

You love those assumptions don't you?

Gohan saving Kuririn means noting, considering, like I said, he gets up right after that and goes on to save Roshi.

Jaco needs no break and isn't battle worn, but Kuririn is. It's seeming evidence that Jaco is superior to Kuririn.

I don't care if Jaco needed no break, he was fighting against soldiers that got beat by a giant fish whilst Kuririn was fighting opponents that needed Gohan's strength to be beaten. I don't know why you can't see that clearly Jaco's opponents were much weaker, he can't fly and couldn't defeat an adult Saiyan, to proclaim he's stronger than Kuririn just because he didn't get tired in a fight is preposterous.

Also, Kuririn gains his scratches when he bumps into the tree. He's weaker than a tree, isn't he?

Do you want to claim Tenshinhan is stronger too, despite promotional material before the movie's release claiming otherwise?

]I'll post 2 scans of Piccolo before he fights Shisami and after he gets hit by Shisami to prove Piccolo only got those scratches from Shasami to debunk that argument

Yes, and he keeps said scratches after eating a Senzu and Kuririn momentarily loses his scratches when he's fighting side-by-side with Jaco. It's clear they're not relevant at all. The only person was struggling in the fight was Roshi.

I proved it in all my points above, also Piccolo's scratches prove that the art damage the characters receive are to show us, the audience, who is stronger than who.

What you proved is that you look too deep into meaningless things.

[h0kuten]

Of course he would of died.

Kuririn was so worn out he needed a break.

´

You love those assumptions don't you?

Gohan told him to have a break, Kuririn didn't contradict it. What more do you want?

Gohan saving Kuririn means noting, considering, like I said, he gets up right after that and goes on to save Roshi.

After he sits on his ass for a bit.

Jaco needs no break and isn't battle worn, but Kuririn is. It's seeming evidence that Jaco is superior to Kuririn.

I don't care if Jaco needed no break, he was fighting against soldiers that got beat by a giant fish whilst Kuririn was fighting opponents that needed Gohan's strength to be beaten. I don't know why you can't see that clearly Jaco's opponents were much weaker, he can't fly and couldn't defeat an adult Saiyan, to proclaim he's stronger than Kuririn just because he didn't get tired in a fight is preposterous.

Kuririn, who doesn't train, could not keep up with the amount of soldiers he was fighting. Roshi BARELY could and Tienshinhan was doing alright. Implying Kuririn is the weakest because he doesn't train. Piccolo has no damage marks and neither does Gohan. Piccolo is also attacked by Shisami because Piccolo is the strongest on the battle-field until Gohan turns Super Saiyan. So the correct chain is:

Gohan Ssj > Piccolo > Gohan Base > Jaco > Tienshinhan > Roshi > Kuririn

Also, Kuririn gains his scratches when he bumps into the tree. He's weaker than a tree, isn't he?

He ran into the tree and who knows how fast he was flying. Of course it will do damage. If Gohan had not saved him, because he was to weak to evade any-more and couldn't even control where he was flying, obviously implies he's far too weak to fight any-more and needed a break.

Do you want to claim Tenshinhan is stronger too, despite promotional material before the movie's release claiming otherwise?

Promotional material has been wrong on 2 occasions. 1) When Gohan was shown to be a Ssj but he wasn't in the final piece. 2) Gohan being said to have dormant power surpassing that of a pure hearted Saiyan, when feats clearly show other-wise as well as statements.

Promotional material is best looked at as 'work in progress', not evidence.

]I'll post 2 scans of Piccolo before he fights Shisami and after he gets hit by Shisami to prove Piccolo only got those scratches from Shasami to debunk that argument

Yes, and he keeps said scratches after eating a Senzu and Kuririn momentarily loses his scratches when he's fighting side-by-side with Jaco. It's clear they're not relevant at all. The only person was struggling in the fight was Roshi.

They are completely relevant. After Piccolo is hit, or anybody, they develop scratches, but Kuririns panting, struggling, and needing a break infers he's probably the weakest of the group now. Please provide a Toriyama interview that says he always trains. Because if you don't, it means Kuririn has been steadily growing weaker since The Cell Games.

I proved it in all my points above, also Piccolo's scratches prove that the art damage the characters receive are to show us, the audience, who is stronger than who.

What you proved is that you look too deep into meaningless things.

[Doctor.]

You'll go to the point of saying Roshi is stronger despite very clearly him being the only one who was remotely struggling, and needing Kuririn's help to keep up, so why should I bother? You look too deeply into irrelevant things and miss context, so I'm not going to reply anymore. Saying Roshi is stronger than Kuririn is ridiculous when Kuririn was said to be the strongest human in promotional material for F multiple times.

[h0kuten]

You'll go to the point of saying Roshi is stronger despite very clearly him being the only one who was remotely struggling, and needing Kuririn's help to keep up, so why should I bother? You look too deeply into irrelevant things and miss context, so I'm not going to reply anymore. Saying Roshi is stronger than Kuririn is ridiculous when Kuririn was said to be the strongest human in promotional material for F multiple times.

Depends. Roshi might have been weaker than Kuririn, but not by a whole lot. They were the only two among the group who were either, heavily damaged, needed a break, or were physically exhausted. So no, Kuririn is probably stronger than at least Roshi but nobody else.

Promotional material isn't always correct. It's still a 'work in progress'.

[ZombieVito]

You'll go to the point of saying Roshi is stronger despite very clearly him being the only one who was remotely struggling, and needing Kuririn's help to keep up, so why should I bother? You look too deeply into irrelevant things and miss context, so I'm not going to reply anymore. Saying Roshi is stronger than Kuririn is ridiculous when Kuririn was said to be the strongest human in promotional material for F multiple times.

Yeah don't bother. Roshi > Kuririn is LOL worthy.

[h0kuten]

You'll go to the point of saying Roshi is stronger despite very clearly him being the only one who was remotely struggling, and needing Kuririn's help to keep up, so why should I bother? You look too deeply into irrelevant things and miss context, so I'm not going to reply anymore. Saying Roshi is stronger than Kuririn is ridiculous when Kuririn was said to be the strongest human in promotional material for F multiple times.

Yeah don't bother. Roshi > Kuririn is LOL worthy.

I changed my mind above.