Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

I can't see it being that low. Just from a writing perspective they wrote off that Goku fusing with Vegeta just wouldn't be good enough. Then the whole story after introduced and revolved around the Super Saiyan God which was used instead.

But the whole time it would be intended to be weaker than what Base Vegito was in the anime?

Even in the manga, Base Vegito had a bigger impact against Merged Zamasu than Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Vegeta had.

I think Super Saiyan God was stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegito and it's strength has largely unchanged since then to the point where the current Base Vegito would be superior.

Yes, from a writing perspective it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't really matter. Loads of stuff don't make sense from a writing perspective and they still happened. What matters here is that we can scale Potara's and SSG's multiplier from Kefla. Base Cauli and base Kale were both weaker than base Goku, yet their fusion in base overpowered SSG Goku, which means the Potara multiplier is higher than SSG's (and we have confirmation that the Potara is a multiplier from Vados' statement). Base Vegetto would always be stronger than SSG Goku (in the same arc) since their power is always related to the other.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I've been looking at the whole "Potara vs. SSG" shebang is that the ritual boosted Goku far beyond what Vegito was capable of......... at the time.

But by acclimating to that power and making it his own, he closed the gap. The power of SSG that he attained didn't change, but Goku did. Instead of it being millions of times stronger than he originally was, it was now only thousands of times. Vegeta did much the same by training under Whis, closing the gap on what SSG would've provided.

So, at the time, Vegito was inferior to SSG. But now, after godly training for years at this point, the jump from base to god form isn't as drastic as it once was. If you place the base Saiyans as very strong and apply the normal SS multipliers, then make the god forms only a few times stronger than them numerically speaking, you still keep the god forms in a league of their own compared to the normal forms, but it also makes them not completely insurmountable with the proper circumstances, like Ultimate Gohan closing the gap and equalling Goku in normal forms whilst maintaining the proportional boost of Ultimate, or Kefla being composed of Saiyans similarly equal in normal forms to Goku and still possessing the same proportional boost of a perfect Potara Fusion.

[Doctor.]

Let us remember that SSB is also 50x SSG, this was confirmed scaling via Kefla once again.

[Almighty Majin]

I'm gonna do rankings for each universe.

U2:
Brianne de Chateau
Zirloin
Zarbuto
Rabanra
Su Roas
Sanka Ku
Jimeze
Hermila
Vikal
Prum

U3:
Maji Kayo
Narirama
Katopesla/Biarra
Borareta/Koitsukai/Pancea
Paparoni
The Preecho
Nigrisshi

U4:
Damon
Gamisaras
Shantsa
Monna
Nink
Ganos
Dercori
Majora
Shosa
Caway

U6:
Kefla
Hit
Kale
Saonel/Pirina
Caulifla
Cabba
Magetta
Frost
Botamo
Dr. Rota

U7:
Goku
Vegeta/Freeza
Gohan
17
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Roshi
Tien

U9:
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
Hyssop/Oregano/Chappil
Comfrey
Hop
Sorrel/Roselle

U10:
Obuni
Rubalt
Murichim
Napapa
Methiop
Jium
Lilibeu
Jilcol/Jirasen

U11:
Jiren
Toppo
Dyspo
Kunshi
Kahseral
Cocotte
Tupper
Zoiray
Kettol
Vuon

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Let us remember that SSB is also 50x SSG, this was confirmed scaling via Kefla once again.

Well, that one also depends.

Some people, including myself, are of the opinion that SS Kefla was equivalent or greater than SSB Goku with Kaio-ken. Which level, we don't know. Could be 2x, 10x, possibly even 20x.

I myself go with 10x to fit in with my personal scaling of SSB being about 5 times stronger than SSG.

[Edit]: This also fits in with the notion of SSR being Goku Black's version of SS with the normal 50x boost, and him becoming marginally stronger than his original base power of 400x that of base Goku/Vegeta/Future Trunks. With me placing SSG at about 5000 times over base Goku, and SSB being 5 times that, Goku Black could have a base form of about 500 times over Goku and then multiply it by 50 with SSR to equal SSB.

[ZombieVito]

Let us remember that SSB is also 50x SSG, this was confirmed scaling via Kefla once again.

Well, that one also depends.

Some people, including myself, are of the opinion that SS Kefla was equivalent or greater than SSB Goku with Kaio-ken. Which level, we don't know. Could be 2x, 10x, possibly even 20x.

I myself go with 10x to fit in with my personal scaling of SSB being about 5 times stronger than SSG.

[Edit]: This also fits in with the notion of SSR being Goku Black's version of SS with the normal 50x boost, and him becoming marginally stronger than his original base power of 400x that of base Goku/Vegeta/Future Trunks. With me placing SSG at about 5000 times over base Goku, and SSB being 5 times that, Goku Black could have a base form of about 500 times over Goku and then multiply it by 50 with SSR to equal SSB.

SS Kefla was confirmed to be equal to the Genkidama Goku made in 109.

That Genkidama should be at the very least equal to SSB KKx20 Goku.

[ekrolo2]

Let us remember that SSB is also 50x SSG, this was confirmed scaling via Kefla once again.

And what he does vs Jiren, SSG isn't worth more than a finger budge while Blue necessitated something approaching an actual battle.

[Myzt0gun]

Shit Tier:
--Dr Rota, Roselle, Oregano, Sorrel, The Preecho, Murisam, Comfrey, Caway

Very Low Tier:
--Jirasen, Methiop, Jium, Lilibeu, Shosa, Vikal, Prum, Jilcol

Low Tier:
--Vuon, Majora, Harmira, Hyssop, Hop, Chappil, Botamo, Krillin, Tien, Nink, Robalt

Decent Tier:
--Dercori, Ganos, Zoiray, Kettol, Basil, Lavender, Napapa, Master Roshi

Mid Tier:
--Bergamo (No Absorption), Frost, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Narirama, Murichim

Above Mid Tier:
--Monna, Jimeze, Auta Magetta, Cocotte

High Tier:
--Bergamo (w/ Absorption), Ribrianne, Android 18, Maji Kayo, Kahseral, Saonel, Pirina

Very High Tier:
--Kunshi, Caulifla, Cabba, Obuni,

Top Tier:
--Dyspo, Android 17, Piccolo

God Tier:
--Toppo, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Kale

Jiren Tier:
--Goku, Jiren, Kefla, Hit

[The_Destroyer]

Shit Tier:
--Dr Rota, Roselle, Oregano, Sorrel, The Preecho, Murisam, Comfrey, Caway

Very Low Tier:
--Jirasen, Methiop, Jium, Lilibeu, Shosa, Vikal, Prum, Jilcol

Low Tier:
--Vuon, Majora, Harmira, Hyssop, Hop, Chappil, Botamo, Krillin, Tien, Nink, Robalt

Decent Tier:
--Dercori, Ganos, Zoiray, Kettol, Basil, Lavender, Napapa, Master Roshi

Mid Tier:
--Bergamo (No Absorption), Frost, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Narirama, Murichim

Above Mid Tier:
--Monna, Jimeze, Auta Magetta, Cocotte

High Tier:
--Bergamo (w/ Absorption), Ribrianne, Android 18, Maji Kayo, Kahseral, Saonel, Pirina

Very High Tier:
--Kunshi, Caulifla, Cabba, Obuni,

Top Tier:
--Dyspo, Android 17, Piccolo

God Tier:
--Toppo, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Kale

Jiren Tier:
--Goku, Jiren, Kefla, Hit

You're low balling Saonel and Pirina and overestimating Kale.

Saonel and Pirina were clearly stronger than Piccolo and were able to fight equally with Mystic Gohan.

Kale struggeled with SSj2 Goku, she's not God Tier.


Maji Kayo could be higher too since he beat Dyspo.

[dragon boss z]

[spoiler]Shit Tier:
--Dr Rota, Roselle, Oregano, Sorrel, The Preecho, Murisam, Comfrey, Caway

Very Low Tier:
--Jirasen, Methiop, Jium, Lilibeu, Shosa, Vikal, Prum, Jilcol

Low Tier:
--Vuon, Majora, Harmira, Hyssop, Hop, Chappil, Botamo, Krillin, Tien, Nink, Robalt

Decent Tier:
--Dercori, Ganos, Zoiray, Kettol, Basil, Lavender, Napapa, Master Roshi

Mid Tier:
--Bergamo (No Absorption), Frost, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Narirama, Murichim

Above Mid Tier:
--Monna, Jimeze, Auta Magetta, Cocotte

High Tier:
--Bergamo (w/ Absorption), Ribrianne, Android 18, Maji Kayo, Kahseral, Saonel, Pirina

Very High Tier:
--Kunshi, Caulifla, Cabba, Obuni,

Top Tier:
--Dyspo, Android 17, Piccolo

God Tier:
--Toppo, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Kale

Jiren Tier:
--Goku, Jiren, Kefla, Hit[/spoiler]

You're low balling Saonel and Pirina and overestimating Kale.

Saonel and Pirina were clearly stronger than Piccolo and were able to fight equally with Mystic Gohan.

Kale struggeled with SSj2 Goku, she's not God Tier.


Maji Kayo could be higher too since he beat Dyspo.

I would also say Hit should be dropped to God tier.

[Myzt0gun]

My bad, just thought Kale is God Tier because of tanking SSB Kamehameha, but Knowing Goku he must be severely holding back

[Marlowe89]

but it also makes them not completely insurmountable with the proper circumstances

They're still insurmountable in the sense that Goku said the forms themselves were in a different league compared to the ordinary Super Saiyan forms, meaning that they'll always provide a proportionally larger boost than Super Saiyan 3 regardless of how strong Goku becomes, but if one sticks with the interpretation that there was no retcon -- and if Goku did indeed retain some of the power of Super Saiyan God permanently -- then I suppose one could theoretically argue that SSG's multiplier is smaller than what it was originally.

[dragon boss z]

but it also makes them not completely insurmountable with the proper circumstances

They're still insurmountable in the sense that Goku said the forms themselves were in a different league compared to the ordinary Super Saiyan forms, meaning that they'll always provide a proportionally larger boost than Super Saiyan 3 regardless of how strong Goku becomes, but if one sticks with the interpretation that there was no retcon -- and if Goku did indeed retain some of the power of Super Saiyan God permanently -- then I suppose one could theoretically argue that SSG's multiplier is smaller than what it was originally.

That's how I see it. After losing SSG in BoG he got a big boost in his base form hence Vegito's base form as well, but I don't think his SSG form got much stronger.

Imo
base Goku (pre BoG)<Frieza 100% (namek)<<base Goku (post BoG)<<ssj3 Goku (pre BoG)<ssj Goku (post BoG)<=>base Goku(post Whis training)=<base Vegito (pre BoG)<ssj (post Whis training)<ssj Vegito (pre BoG)<ssj3 (post Whis training)<=>SSG (BoG)<SSG(post Whis training)<base Vegito (post Whis training)

My personal power level list (as of now)
[spoiler]base Goku (pre BoG): 60 mil
Frieza 100% (namek): 120 mil
base Goku (post BoG): 600 mil
ssj3 Goku (pre BoG): 24 bil
ssj Goku (post BoG): 30 bil
base Goku (post Whis): 30 bil
base Vegito (pre BoG): 30 bil
ssj Goku (post Whis): 50 bil
ssj Vegito (pre BoG): 300 bil
ssj3 Goku (post Whis): 400 bil
SSG Goku (BoG): 600 bil
SSG Goku (post Whis): 1 tril
SSB Goku: 5 tril
base Vegito (post Whis): 1-10 tril not much to go off of[/spoiler]

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vados and Champa's worries mean nothing, Goku ONLY numbs, not injures the arms of a a SSJ Kefla holding back. After that, SHE powers up. Then Goku powers KK up AGAIN and hits her ONLY to cause discomfort but not impair or give him the advantage. After that attack, Kefla stated "She was FAR FROM OVER" and THEN smiles. Then she KO's Goku back to normal mode with just ONE KICK! Whis stated, just like the Genki Dama that overcame Goku and incited UI, so does Kefla's massive energy, that rivals the bomb and OVERCAME Goku with JUST ONE KICK incited UI. Stop with this bad excuse about Goku being off gaurd, Kefla TOO took a "CLEAN Blow" from Goku and didn't KO her! The statements = the feats.

It was not said that Kefla was holding herself, she even INCREASED her power before facing Goku SSB KK.

And although Kefla had not been damaged in the first punch of the Blue KK, her arms went numb, even though she had DEFENDED the punch (Kefla herself was impressed).
And about the punch that Goku hit in Kefla, even Champa and Kyabe thought she had been defeated, how did it not give Goku an advantage?

But of course the words of Vados and Champa mean nothing when it is convenient for you ...
Goku was defeated for 2 reasons, which are SIMPLE to understand:

- He was low on energy and Beerus said that Goku should end the fight in the next attack (which was a Kamehameha, but that did not hit Kefla).

- After his attack fails, Goku takes a kick from Kefla with the low guard (he was caught unawares, so it is normal for him to feel the impact of the blow), and '' lost '' the Kaioken, and as Beerus had indicated, Goku ran out of energy and so returned to his normal form (but he was not knocked out and neither was unconscious, he just did not have the energy to maintain the transformation)

Kefla was only able to urge Goku to activate the UI because he was already tired

No, you are factually wrong again. You are so caught up in Goku being tired and able to punch Kefla. Well a tired Goku was able to combo and overpower a fused Zamasu who was way stronger than him. Yet it didn't MAKE a difference did it? Same here, Kefla smiles and says "she is far from over" after getting punched in the gut and proceeds to ONE HIT KO Goku back to base mode. Her arms only went numb cause she didn't power up her SSJ and that SHOWS she was holding back. It demonstrated how powerful she was and Whis DEFINED her strength that it rivaled the bomb. The fans don't get to interpret the canon fact when TOEI has already told us how strong SSJ Kefla is and her spirit bomb energy is what caused Goku to go UI AGAIN.

Kefla having said the fight was '' far from over '' does not change the fact that she proved unable to keep up with Goku's speed and clearly felt the impact of his punch.

When was Goku able to rival Merged Zamasu? He used all his strength and even broke his arms, are totally different situations (not to mention that Zamasu was surprised because the Kamehameha broke through his attack suddenly).

Even VEGETA took damage from Katopesla's punches when he was not focused on the fight, and Kefla did not even knock or knock him out. She caught Goku by surprise this was clear but you insist on denying the Saiyajin just went back to its base form by being out of energy). After taking Goku's punch, Kefla does not increase his power, just tries to attack Goku again. Not even on EP 116 did she show a greater power in her SSJ form. At no point was it said she was holding on (Goku was still tired).
And I'm not going to explain Whis's speech again, you talk as if this interpretation is something absolute, it takes it very literally.

[Miracles]

Kefla having said the fight was '' far from over '' does not change the fact that she proved unable to keep up with Goku's speed and clearly felt the impact of his punch.

And it didn't damage her nor give Goku the advantage, so the punch meant nothing. That's why she said she was "far from over."

When was Goku able to rival Merged Zamasu? He used all his strength and even broke his arms, are totally different situations (not to mention that Zamasu was surprised because the Kamehameha broke through his attack suddenly).

But according to you since a TIRED Goku was able to get some attacks on fused Zamasu, even hurt him and overpower him, Zamasu shouldn't be as strong to rival Vegetto in power later. Same here with Kefla, since a TIRED Goku shouldn't be able to punch Kefla or speed behind her without noticing, since she is equal to the genki dama, right?

Even VEGETA took damage from Katopesla's punches when he was not focused on the fight, and Kefla did not even knock or knock him out. She caught Goku by surprise this was clear but you insist on denying the Saiyajin just went back to its base form by being out of energy). After taking Goku's punch, Kefla does not increase his power, just tries to attack Goku again. Not even on EP 116 did she show a greater power in her SSJ form. At no point was it said she was holding on (Goku was still tired). And I'm not going to explain Whis's speech again, you talk as if this interpretation is something absolute, it takes it very literally.

AFTER KEFLA'S ARMS GO NUMB SHE POWERS UP HER SSJ. WHICH SHOWS SHE WASN'T FULL POWER. THIS IS A FACT. The bold in your post is false.We all see Goku get KO'd back into base mode by Kefla's kick. Show me where it was stated that Goku was off guard and went back to base mode cause he was out of energy? Show me the statements? You don't go by the canon, you are trying to make YOUR own desires fact. BUT TOEI is telling the story here and they specifically DEFINED that Kefla's power in SSJ is equal to the bomb. A CLEAR and blunt statement that leaves NO room for interpretation from the audience. THAT is the TRUTH and what you are stating is merely conjecture, passing an opinion off as a fact can do nothing against the truth. Kefla's SSJ power is equal to the Spirit bomb stated and confirmed by Dragonball Super. I will stay with the facts of the story not with what a fan thinks what the writers meant to say.

[Bullza]

My bad, just thought Kale is God Tier because of tanking SSB Kamehameha, but Knowing Goku he must be severely holding back

Well he did say he was only letting out a little power from when he was a Super Saiyan 2.

Her being Super Saiyan 2 tier is way too low though. Goku went Super Saiyan 3 and there was no reaction from Jiren at all but there was when Kale went Super Saiyan Berserk. Then she went and powered up again when she gained control.

So she's somewhere between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God.

[HeroR]

My bad, just thought Kale is God Tier because of tanking SSB Kamehameha, but Knowing Goku he must be severely holding back

Well he did say he was only letting out a little power from when he was a Super Saiyan 2.

Her being Super Saiyan 2 tier is way too low though. Goku went Super Saiyan 3 and there was no reaction from Jiren at all but there was when Kale went Super Saiyan Berserk. Then she went and powered up again when she gained control.

So she's somewhere between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God.

Kale fought evenly with Super Saiyan God Goku in 114. They were literally not hurting each other and it was Cali getting bodied.

[Bullza]

Kale fought evenly with Super Saiyan God Goku in 114. They were literally not hurting each other and it was Cali getting bodied.

They did fight evenly physically unlike Caulifla who was clearly no match but Goku did fly through Kale's blast unscathed and easily overpowered her blast with a small ball of energy so I wouldn't she was God level but probably the level below that.

Perhaps closest to Base Black is the only comparison I can think of right now.

[HeroR]

Kale fought evenly with Super Saiyan God Goku in 114. They were literally not hurting each other and it was Cali getting bodied.

They did fight evenly physically unlike Caulifla who was clearly no match but Goku did fly through Kale's blast unscathed and easily overpowered her blast with a small ball of energy so I wouldn't she was God level but probably the level below that.

Perhaps closest to Base Black is the only comparison I can think of right now.

Goku also punched her in the face and did no damaged to her. She didn't even a scuffed mark. She also deflected that blast from Goku.

Base Black was Super Saiyan 3 Goku's level, who was weaker back then.

[Hugo Boss]

Shit Tier:
--Dr Rota, Roselle, Oregano, Sorrel, The Preecho, Murisam, Comfrey, Caway

Very Low Tier:
--Jirasen, Methiop, Jium, Lilibeu, Shosa, Vikal, Prum, Jilcol

Low Tier:
--Vuon, Majora, Harmira, Hyssop, Hop, Chappil, Botamo, Krillin, Tien, Nink, Robalt

Decent Tier:
--Dercori, Ganos, Zoiray, Kettol, Basil, Lavender, Napapa, Master Roshi

Mid Tier:
--Bergamo (No Absorption), Frost, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Narirama, Murichim

Above Mid Tier:
--Monna, Jimeze, Auta Magetta, Cocotte

High Tier:
--Bergamo (w/ Absorption), Ribrianne, Android 18, Maji Kayo, Kahseral, Saonel, Pirina

Very High Tier:
--Kunshi, Caulifla, Cabba, Obuni,

Top Tier:
--Dyspo, Android 17, Piccolo

God Tier:
--Toppo, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Kale

Jiren Tier:
--Goku, Jiren, Kefla, Hit

You're low balling Saonel and Pirina and overestimating Kale.

Saonel and Pirina were clearly stronger than Piccolo and were able to fight equally with Mystic Gohan.

Kale struggeled with SSj2 Goku, she's not God Tier.


Maji Kayo could be higher too since he beat Dyspo.

I would probably bump the Universe 6 Namekians a level up too.

In normal conditions, I agree Piccolo was being outclassed by the duo, but once he regained his fighting spirit his makankosappo surpassed them.