Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The_Destroyer]

Shit Tier:
--Dr Rota, Roselle, Oregano, Sorrel, The Preecho, Murisam, Comfrey, Caway

Very Low Tier:
--Jirasen, Methiop, Jium, Lilibeu, Shosa, Vikal, Prum, Jilcol

Low Tier:
--Vuon, Majora, Harmira, Hyssop, Hop, Chappil, Botamo, Krillin, Tien, Nink, Robalt

Decent Tier:
--Dercori, Ganos, Zoiray, Kettol, Basil, Lavender, Napapa, Master Roshi

Mid Tier:
--Bergamo (No Absorption), Frost, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Narirama, Murichim

Above Mid Tier:
--Monna, Jimeze, Auta Magetta, Cocotte

High Tier:
--Bergamo (w/ Absorption), Ribrianne, Android 18, Maji Kayo, Kahseral, Saonel, Pirina

Very High Tier:
--Kunshi, Caulifla, Cabba, Obuni,

Top Tier:
--Dyspo, Android 17, Piccolo

God Tier:
--Toppo, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Kale

Jiren Tier:
--Goku, Jiren, Kefla, Hit

You're low balling Saonel and Pirina and overestimating Kale.

Saonel and Pirina were clearly stronger than Piccolo and were able to fight equally with Mystic Gohan.

Kale struggeled with SSj2 Goku, she's not God Tier.


Maji Kayo could be higher too since he beat Dyspo.

I would probably bump the Universe 6 Namekians a level up too.

In normal conditions, I agree Piccolo was being outclassed by the duo, but once he regained his fighting spirit his makankosappo surpassed them.

Yeah, The SBC is capable of hurting stronger opponents. But still though, the Namekians should be a tier above Piccolo.

[Doctor.]

Let us remember that SSB is also 50x SSG, this was confirmed scaling via Kefla once again.

Well, that one also depends.

Some people, including myself, are of the opinion that SS Kefla was equivalent or greater than SSB Goku with Kaio-ken. Which level, we don't know. Could be 2x, 10x, possibly even 20x.

I myself go with 10x to fit in with my personal scaling of SSB being about 5 times stronger than SSG.

[Edit]: This also fits in with the notion of SSR being Goku Black's version of SS with the normal 50x boost, and him becoming marginally stronger than his original base power of 400x that of base Goku/Vegeta/Future Trunks. With me placing SSG at about 5000 times over base Goku, and SSB being 5 times that, Goku Black could have a base form of about 500 times over Goku and then multiply it by 50 with SSR to equal SSB.

SS Kefla was confirmed to be equal to the Genkidama Goku made in 109.

That Genkidama should be at the very least equal to SSB KKx20 Goku.

That was SS2 Kefla.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well, that one also depends.

Some people, including myself, are of the opinion that SS Kefla was equivalent or greater than SSB Goku with Kaio-ken. Which level, we don't know. Could be 2x, 10x, possibly even 20x.

I myself go with 10x to fit in with my personal scaling of SSB being about 5 times stronger than SSG.

[Edit]: This also fits in with the notion of SSR being Goku Black's version of SS with the normal 50x boost, and him becoming marginally stronger than his original base power of 400x that of base Goku/Vegeta/Future Trunks. With me placing SSG at about 5000 times over base Goku, and SSB being 5 times that, Goku Black could have a base form of about 500 times over Goku and then multiply it by 50 with SSR to equal SSB.

SS Kefla was confirmed to be equal to the Genkidama Goku made in 109.

That Genkidama should be at the very least equal to SSB KKx20 Goku.

That was SS2 Kefla.

No, it wasnt SS2 Kefla. It was just super kefla. After whis said that she rivaled the spirit bomb (which is what made goku go UI), She the powered up.

[Bullza]

Base Black was Super Saiyan 3 Goku's level, who was weaker back then.

He was at first but then he had that other big boost after he fought Goku in the present. He even blitzed Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and withstood a pounding.

[majinwarman]

Ultimate Gohan seems strong but not exceptional like Kale was, he doesn't seem that amazingly different from SS3 Goku who didn't budge Jiren when medidating. Also for the matter, neither him nor the Super Namekians get hyped by the spectators like Blue/God Goku or Kale were. You know "What amazing pressure/speed/aura" and bla bla, his power just doesn't seem extraordinary like the others.

Also my own U6 powerscale:

Kafla
Hit
Kale
Pilina
Saonel
Caulifla
Cabba
Frost
Magetta
Botamo
Dr Rota

That list looks pretty accurate to me.

I don't think Kale is stronger than the Namekians. A weak SSG Goku was able to keep up with her.

I think Kale is between God and Blue level or maybe she is weaker than the Namekians.

[dragon boss z]

That list looks pretty accurate to me.

I don't think Kale is stronger than the Namekians. A weak SSG Goku was able to keep up with her.

I think Kale is between God and Blue level or maybe she is weaker than the Namekians.

She is weaker than God level (as shown in ep 114) and the Namekians are as well. They are below mystic Gohan who imo is probably below SSG.

[Bullza]

Well there's not much to go on with Gohan. We knows he stronger than ever and the show would have us believe that he was on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku but we'll see.

You'd think Piccolo would be weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga considering he was around the level of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who was training to get back that "original" power.

Who knows how strong Android 17 is, he could be as low as Super Saiyan 2 tier for all we know. He's above Super Saiyan Goku at least.

[supercat]

17 and Ultimate Gohan were both shown tangling with SSB Goku; 17 wasn't even at full power yet he still gave a suppresed SSB Goku a great fight. And yes, while they were both suppressed, one could easily argue that Goku was the more serious one of the two.

I don't know what'll please this fandom; despite actual feats showing up in the form of something as straightforward as hand to hand combat, I still see ridiculous posts about how either so-and-so shouldn't be at certain level or there is too much ambiguity to gauge a particular character's power. It's hilarious because any feat that shows just how strong a character is seems to be valued far less than a feat that makes them look weaker. Speaking of ambiguity, isn't something like 17 and 18 fighting on par with Base Goku far more ambiguous in nature than 17 actually giving SSB Goku a good fight?

Do we literally need to go back to power levels and scouters? Come on...

[Bullza]

It's because they shouldn't be that strong at all, not even close really. If they don't care about that though and they made them that strong because they wanted to then ok.

If Ultimate Gohan is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then it just means that Pirina and Saonel are as well, those two would then be of a similar level to Toppo and Golden Frieza.

We know Toppo is of that level so if he fights Gohan and beats him easily well then we know he isn't Blue level.

Android 17 matched a suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Goku but he can suppress his power to that low a level that it doesn't really tell us much at all. So until he proves otherwise I could only safely say he's above Super Saiyan Goku.

[HeroR]

It's because they shouldn't be that strong at all, not even close really. If they don't care about that though and they made them that strong because they wanted to then ok.

If Ultimate Gohan is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then it just means that Pirina and Saonel are as well, those two would then be of a similar level to Toppo and Golden Frieza.

We know Toppo is of that level so if he fights Gohan and beats him easily well then we know he isn't Blue level.

Android 17 matched a suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Goku but he can suppress his power to that low a level that it doesn't really tell us much at all. So until he proves otherwise I could only safely say he's above Super Saiyan Goku.

Based on whose metric? And why would Goku go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, say he didn't intend to, and then used energy that is on the level of his regular Super Saiyan forms? What is even the point, especially since Goku didn't want to used the form?

The, 'they shouldn't be this strong' is a really lousy line of thinking in a series about breaking limits.

And you can be 'Blue level' without being able to fight Blue at its full power. Like Goku was on Cell's level despite Goku being weaker than full power Cell.

[supercat]

It's because they shouldn't be that strong at all, not even close really. If they don't care about that though and they made them that strong because they wanted to then ok.

If Ultimate Gohan is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then it just means that Pirina and Saonel are as well, those two would then be of a similar level to Toppo and Golden Frieza.

We know Toppo is of that level so if he fights Gohan and beats him easily well then we know he isn't Blue level.

Android 17 matched a suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Goku but he can suppress his power to that low a level that it doesn't really tell us much at all. So until he proves otherwise I could only safely say he's above Super Saiyan Goku.

Okay, so just because some fans feel certain characters shouldn't be that strong, it doesn't make sense. Great argument. In all seriousness, power levels have never really been linear. I've been a fan for well over a decade, and I have never once felt that increases in strength were consistent.

There is no problem with Saonel and Pirina being SSB-tier. They have multiple beings within them, so it makes perfect sense. As for Ultimate Gohan, can it get more obvious than actually holding up against an SSB Goku that even went as far as using Kaioken? Should we just assume it was a suppressed version of Kaioken too?

That whole thing about Goku suppressing himself to practically any level is just another theory, and ultimately a baseless speculation in my opinion. Why would Goku go SSB just to suppress himself down to the level of his weaker transformations? 17 already has a feat where he fights SSB Goku evenly. On top of that, it appeared as though Goku was exerting himself a bit more than 17 was. And to disregard that with some unproven theory (which in my opinion almost rivals the two base theory) and downplay 17 to a level far weaker than he was portrayed as makes no sense to me.

HeroR summed it up nicely. 17 could be close to SSB Goku, but be a few notches weaker. I feel this applies to a lot of other characters as well, namely Future Zamasu.

I adhere to something like this:

SSB Goku: 10
17: 8.5 - 9
Future Zamasu: 8

[HeroR]

It's because they shouldn't be that strong at all, not even close really. If they don't care about that though and they made them that strong because they wanted to then ok.

If Ultimate Gohan is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then it just means that Pirina and Saonel are as well, those two would then be of a similar level to Toppo and Golden Frieza.

We know Toppo is of that level so if he fights Gohan and beats him easily well then we know he isn't Blue level.

Android 17 matched a suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Goku but he can suppress his power to that low a level that it doesn't really tell us much at all. So until he proves otherwise I could only safely say he's above Super Saiyan Goku.

Okay, so just because some fans feel certain characters shouldn't be that strong, it doesn't make sense. Great argument. In all seriousness, power levels have never really been linear. I've been a fan for well over a decade, and I have never once felt that increases in strength were consistent.

There is no problem with Saonel and Pirina being SSB-tier. They have multiple beings within them, so it makes perfect sense. As for Ultimate Gohan, can it get more obvious than actually holding up against an SSB Goku that even went as far as using Kaioken? Should we just assume it was a suppressed version of Kaioken too?

That whole thing about Goku suppressing himself to practically any level is just another theory, and ultimately a baseless speculation in my opinion. Why would Goku go SSB just to suppress himself down to the level of his weaker transformations? 17 already has a feat where he fights SSB Goku evenly. On top of that, it appeared as though Goku was exerting himself a bit more than 17 was. And to disregard that with some unproven theory (which in my opinion almost rivals the two base theory) and downplay 17 to a level far weaker than he was portrayed as makes no sense to me.

HeroR summed it up nicely. 17 could be close to SSB Goku, but be a few notches weaker. I feel this applies to a lot of other characters as well, namely Future Zamasu.

I adhere to something like this:

SSB Goku: 10
17: 8.5 - 9
Future Zamasu: 8

Well, in fairness he did that against Krillin. But everyone said that Goku going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was extreme overkill and Krillin had no chance at winning no matter how clever he is. In other words, Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to prove a point. Everything else like 17, he wasn't trying to prove anything and he outright said, 'I had no intention of using this form'.

He also used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against the Trio De Danger with Vegeta, which was unnecessary overkill though.

Personally, I put 17 as an 8 and Future Zamasu as a 7 (at the time of that saga).

[JazzMazz]

It's because they shouldn't be that strong at all, not even close really. If they don't care about that though and they made them that strong because they wanted to then ok.

If Ultimate Gohan is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then it just means that Pirina and Saonel are as well, those two would then be of a similar level to Toppo and Golden Frieza.

We know Toppo is of that level so if he fights Gohan and beats him easily well then we know he isn't Blue level.

Android 17 matched a suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Goku but he can suppress his power to that low a level that it doesn't really tell us much at all. So until he proves otherwise I could only safely say he's above Super Saiyan Goku.

Okay, so just because some fans feel certain characters shouldn't be that strong, it doesn't make sense. Great argument. In all seriousness, power levels have never really been linear. I've been a fan for well over a decade, and I have never once felt that increases in strength were consistent.

There is no problem with Saonel and Pirina being SSB-tier. They have multiple beings within them, so it makes perfect sense. As for Ultimate Gohan, can it get more obvious than actually holding up against an SSB Goku that even went as far as using Kaioken? Should we just assume it was a suppressed version of Kaioken too?

That whole thing about Goku suppressing himself to practically any level is just another theory, and ultimately a baseless speculation in my opinion. Why would Goku go SSB just to suppress himself down to the level of his weaker transformations? 17 already has a feat where he fights SSB Goku evenly. On top of that, it appeared as though Goku was exerting himself a bit more than 17 was. And to disregard that with some unproven theory (which in my opinion almost rivals the two base theory) and downplay 17 to a level far weaker than he was portrayed as makes no sense to me.

HeroR summed it up nicely. 17 could be close to SSB Goku, but be a few notches weaker. I feel this applies to a lot of other characters as well, namely Future Zamasu.

I adhere to something like this:

SSB Goku: 10
17: 8.5 - 9
Future Zamasu: 8

Super runs on the idea that you can still hold your own against someone even if you are vastly weaker than them. I don't understand whats so complex about this to understand.
Otherwise, by your logic, Kuririn, which is confirmed weaker than base Gohan, which is slightly stronger than base Goku at best, is somehow also SSB tier because he was able to push back SSB Goku's Kamehameha slightly.

[HeroR]

Super runs on the idea that you can still hold your own against someone even if you are vastly weaker than them. I don't understand whats so complex about this to understand.
Otherwise, by your logic, Kuririn, which is confirmed weaker than base Gohan, which is slightly stronger than base Goku at best, is somehow also SSB tier because he was able to push back SSB Goku's Kamehameha slightly.

To a point. As the Krillin vs. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku fight also makes very clear, once a certain power threshold has been past, then no amount of tricks outside of using the Evil Containment Wave or charging up a blast for several minutes will save you. Like Roshi couldn't do a thing against Frost despite being more skilled than him and Frost holding back so he wouldn't kill Roshi. Even with base form Goku vs. Super Saiyan 2 Cali, Goku's skill only got him so far once Cali adapted to him.

[JazzMazz]

Super runs on the idea that you can still hold your own against someone even if you are vastly weaker than them. I don't understand whats so complex about this to understand.
Otherwise, by your logic, Kuririn, which is confirmed weaker than base Gohan, which is slightly stronger than base Goku at best, is somehow also SSB tier because he was able to push back SSB Goku's Kamehameha slightly.

To a point. As the Krillin vs. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku fight also makes very clear, once a certain power threshold has been past, then no amount of tricks outside of using the Evil Containment Wave or charging up a blast for several minutes will save you. Like Roshi couldn't do a thing against Frost despite being more skilled than him and Frost holding back so he wouldn't kill Roshi. Even with base form Goku vs. Super Saiyan 2 Cali, Goku's skill only got him so far once Cali adapted to him.

I think the same could be said with Goku using SSB and Kaioken against Jiren. Even though he was able to fight against Jiren at that level of power, he was still totally outclassed to the point he couldn't land a single clean hit.

EDIT: Hell even in this episode, you had Piccolo going up against the Pirina, a warrior who vastly outclassed him and were able to match up to Ultimate Gohan fairly well, for a decent period.

[HeroR]

I think the same could be said with Goku using SSB and Kaioken against Jiren. Even though he was able to fight against Jiren at that level of power, he was still totally outclassed to the point he couldn't land a single clean hit.

EDIT: Hell even in this episode, you had Piccolo going up against the Pirina, a warrior who vastly outclassed him and were able to match up to Ultimate Gohan fairly well, for a decent period.

Jiren seemed highly skilled. So Jiren was both strong and a trained martial artist like Goku, my assumption, which is why I didn't include him.

Piccolo did nothing against Pirina after he got his full power. Gohan had to save him.

[JazzMazz]

I think the same could be said with Goku using SSB and Kaioken against Jiren. Even though he was able to fight against Jiren at that level of power, he was still totally outclassed to the point he couldn't land a single clean hit.

EDIT: Hell even in this episode, you had Piccolo going up against the Pirina, a warrior who vastly outclassed him and were able to match up to Ultimate Gohan fairly well, for a decent period.

Jiren seemed highly skilled. So Jiren was both strong and a trained martial artist like Goku, my assumption, which is why I didn't include him.

Piccolo did nothing against Pirina after he got his full power. Gohan had to save him.

I think they make it pretty clear that the main difference between Goku and Jiren is more raw power, than anything to do in pure skill.

Its true Piccolo did nothing to Pirina, but he was still capable of trading blows with him, at least for a time.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Kefla having said the fight was '' far from over '' does not change the fact that she proved unable to keep up with Goku's speed and clearly felt the impact of his punch.

And it didn't damage her nor give Goku the advantage, so the punch meant nothing. That's why she said she was "far from over."

When was Goku able to rival Merged Zamasu? He used all his strength and even broke his arms, are totally different situations (not to mention that Zamasu was surprised because the Kamehameha broke through his attack suddenly).

But according to you since a TIRED Goku was able to get some attacks on fused Zamasu, even hurt him and overpower him, Zamasu shouldn't be as strong to rival Vegetto in power later. Same here with Kefla, since a TIRED Goku shouldn't be able to punch Kefla or speed behind her without noticing, since she is equal to the genki dama, right?

Even VEGETA took damage from Katopesla's punches when he was not focused on the fight, and Kefla did not even knock or knock him out. She caught Goku by surprise this was clear but you insist on denying the Saiyajin just went back to its base form by being out of energy). After taking Goku's punch, Kefla does not increase his power, just tries to attack Goku again. Not even on EP 116 did she show a greater power in her SSJ form. At no point was it said she was holding on (Goku was still tired). And I'm not going to explain Whis's speech again, you talk as if this interpretation is something absolute, it takes it very literally.

AFTER KEFLA'S ARMS GO NUMB SHE POWERS UP HER SSJ. WHICH SHOWS SHE WASN'T FULL POWER. THIS IS A FACT. The bold in your post is false.We all see Goku get KO'd back into base mode by Kefla's kick. Show me where it was stated that Goku was off guard and went back to base mode cause he was out of energy? Show me the statements? You don't go by the canon, you are trying to make YOUR own desires fact. BUT TOEI is telling the story here and they specifically DEFINED that Kefla's power in SSJ is equal to the bomb. A CLEAR and blunt statement that leaves NO room for interpretation from the audience. THAT is the TRUTH and what you are stating is merely conjecture, passing an opinion off as a fact can do nothing against the truth. Kefla's SSJ power is equal to the Spirit bomb stated and confirmed by Dragonball Super. I will stay with the facts of the story not with what a fan thinks what the writers meant to say.

After Kefla's arms go numb with Goku's punch, she increases her power and EVEN she does not follow Goku's speed and shivers to get up after taking another punch. WATCH the EP again

The episode does not have to narrate EVERY minor detail just because you want it. It was clear that Goku did not notice Kefla's approach and was surprised by her kick, after all, the Kamehameha had blocked his sight. And it's so obvious that it's just a matter of watching the episode, it's always been like this (it needs to be said that Vegeta> Goku in the FT Saga? No, that was clear, while Vegeta overcame Black, Goku lost to him).

But the most convenient for you is to act as if you do not know how to understand something so simple and only consider the speech as an irrefutable fact (as if TOEI explained EVERYTHING in the anime). It's also very convenient for you to ignore Whis's speech shortly after comparing Kefla's power with that of GK (speaking that she prompted Goku to activate the UI). But it seems that there are no interpretations when it is convenient (the funniest thing is you ignore the speeches of Vados and Champa with Fear of Kefla SSJ face Goku SSB TIRED)

[HeroR]

I think they make it pretty clear that the main difference between Goku and Jiren is more raw power, than anything to do in pure skill.

Its true Piccolo did nothing to Pirina, but he was still capable of trading blows with him, at least for a time.

Jiren is both powerful and skilled like Beerus, which is what I'm getting at.

He didn't really trade blows. He tired to attack and get his ass kicked.

[buutenks]

So i rewatched a part of ep 116. And this is what Whis and Beerus said:

Whis: The trigger that set it off this time was probably Kefla.

Beerus:Her massive energy.

Whis: Yes. Kefla rivaled the power of the Spirit Bomb he(Goku) bathed in.


So Kefla's BP is around that of the GK.