Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

It's because they shouldn't be that strong at all, not even close really. If they don't care about that though and they made them that strong because they wanted to then ok.

If Ultimate Gohan is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then it just means that Pirina and Saonel are as well, those two would then be of a similar level to Toppo and Golden Frieza.

We know Toppo is of that level so if he fights Gohan and beats him easily well then we know he isn't Blue level.

Android 17 matched a suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Goku but he can suppress his power to that low a level that it doesn't really tell us much at all. So until he proves otherwise I could only safely say he's above Super Saiyan Goku.

Based on whose metric? And why would Goku go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, say he didn't intend to, and then used energy that is on the level of his regular Super Saiyan forms? What is even the point, especially since Goku didn't want to used the form?

The, 'they shouldn't be this strong' is a really lousy line of thinking in a series about breaking limits.

And you can be 'Blue level' without being able to fight Blue at its full power. Like Goku was on Cell's level despite Goku being weaker than full power Cell.

It’s impossible to tell if he is fighting close to his full power. He used a kamehameha against Kale that did nothing, but as a SSGod he was dealing with a stronger Kale and Caulifla with ease.

[Bullza]

So because some fans feel certain characters shouldn't be that strong, it doesn't make sense.

Well it really doesn't. Prior to the Tournament Piccolo helped Gohan get back his original strength, his Ultimate Gohan strength from the Buu saga. Piccolo then said he thought he could actually get even stronger so they trained.

At which point Ultimate Gohan is now as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue? Of course this being a Super Saiyan Blue that would stomp the previous original Super Saiyan Blue....from training for about a day?

Android 17 even worse because last time we saw him he didn't even compare to the level Goku was at. Goku then trained in heaven, became Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, trained with Whis, became Super Saiyan Blue, trained 3 years in the Rosat and had a rage boost.

And Android 17 is comparable...from doing what? He was just a park ranger. With that rate of increase would he not have stopped even the strongest form of Buu had he just shown up?

There is no problem with Saonel and Pirina being SSB-tier.

I could probably accept that. Like I said it would just put them in the same tier as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, Toppo and Golden Frieza. Do I think that's the intention? I wouldn't have thought so.

Piccolo was shown to be Super Saiyan 2 level, he was able to hurt Pirina. Super Saiyan 2 Cabba didn't scratch Golden Frieza.

Why would Goku go SSB just to suppress himself down to the level of his weaker transformations?

But he's already done it. He held back so much he could match Krillin. He would seemingly have held back to 1/100th of his power when he initially fought Arale. Then the most clear cut one of all is that he fired a Kamehameha point blank at Kale and she walked through it.

But then later on the weaker Super Saiyan God flew through Kale's attack and at that point she was stronger than before.

[supercat]

So because some fans feel certain characters shouldn't be that strong, it doesn't make sense.

Well it really doesn't. Prior to the Tournament Piccolo helped Gohan get back his original strength, his Ultimate Gohan strength from the Buu saga. Piccolo then said he thought he could actually get even stronger so they trained.

At which point Ultimate Gohan is now as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue? Of course this being a Super Saiyan Blue that would stomp the previous original Super Saiyan Blue....from training for about a day?

Android 17 even worse because last time we saw him he didn't even compare to the level Goku was at. Goku then trained in heaven, became Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, trained with Whis, became Super Saiyan Blue, trained 3 years in the Rosat and had a rage boost.

And Android 17 is comparable...from doing what? He was just a park ranger. With that rate of increase would he not have stopped even the strongest form of Buu had he just shown up?

There is no problem with Saonel and Pirina being SSB-tier.

I could probably accept that. Like I said it would just put them in the same tier as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, Toppo and Golden Frieza. Do I think that's the intention? I wouldn't have thought so.

Piccolo was shown to be Super Saiyan 2 level, he was able to hurt Pirina. Super Saiyan 2 Cabba didn't scratch Golden Frieza.

Why would Goku go SSB just to suppress himself down to the level of his weaker transformations?

But he's already done it. He held back so much he could match Krillin. He would seemingly have held back to 1/100th of his power when he initially fought Arale. Then the most clear cut one of all is that he fired a Kamehameha point blank at Kale and she walked through it.

But then later on the weaker Super Saiyan God flew through Kale's attack and at that point she was stronger than before.

No one ever explicitly stated that Piccolo was getting Gohan up to the same power level he was at during the Buu saga. That whole regaining his Ultimate state was quite ambiguous and open-ended. I interpreted it as regaining the transformation itself, since after all, that's what it's now portrayed as. Why use Ultimate vs SSJ? Well it probably conserves energy and is likely a more efficient way of going full power.

Seriously, you keep coming back with the same redundant weak argument about how it makes no sense for so-and-so to be so strong when another character put in way more work. When have power levels been linear? If that were the case, it makes no sense that Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin saw greater improvements than Goku did under the same training regimen. Then there's their training on King Kai's, and their feat of passing through snake way much faster than Goku. Goku's always sort of been the benchmark, yet others have shown that they could surpass it just one arc later. Sure, the gap got bigger after transformations were introduced, but 17 is an android with unlimited stamina and a starting power that far exceeded the original Frieza and Namek SSJ Goku. Who's to say that casual training over the years can't put him at SSB-tier?

I don't care what you feel is worse, because quite frankly, how you and other fans feel isn't really a relevant point in this discussion. I could say a number of other things don't make sense, but that wouldn't reduce any credibility, as they were still things that had occurred. 17, in his suppressed state, was shown fighting on par with SSB Goku, who like I previously indicated, wasn't exactly playing games. He also didn't intend on going SSB, yet he did, so comparing it with SSB Goku vs Krillin is not only baseless, but isn't even applicable as an analogy.

17 barely seemed to care when he learned about the tournament and its stakes. He seems like the kind of character who approaches life with a nonchalant attitude and takes things for how they are, so again, him not stopping Buu is another baseless argument that I feel has no place in the equation. And if we really want to go the whole "if so-and-so is so strong, why didn't they stop this from happening?" argument, let's not forget about Supreme Kai and Frieza or even Beerus and Buu. So was Beerus so weak that he couldn't stop the one being that jeopardized his existence? And before you ever so conveniently go into the whole retcon thing again, I could say the same and just say that 17's power was retconned after the Buu saga. You see how open-ended this is?

The Krillin thing was explained rather well by HeroR so you can just look back at that post. But to recap, the vast difference between Krillin and Goku's powerlevels was explicitly noted. So again, this argument doesn't really support the downplaying of 17.

And even if we downplay 17 as low as possible, he was considerably stronger than SSJ Goku, who at this point should be leagues ahead of anything from the Buu saga when you factor in numerous feats, namely Base Goku / SSJ Goku vs Beerus (post-ritual), Base Goku vs Monaka-Beerus, Base Copy-Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks, etc. But again, I see no reason why 17 can't be either current SSB-tier or at the very least be on par with SSB Goku / Vegeta from RoF.

Also, SSJ2-tier isn't really a level, as there's more than one SSJ2; Cell saga SSJ2-tier, Buu saga SSJ2-tier, Current SSJ2 Goku, etc. In regards to Piccolo vs Pirina and Cabba vs Golden Frieza, you do realize that Piccolo trained rigorously with Gohan right? Who's to say Piccolo didn't get stronger than he was when he nonchalantly wrecked SSJ2 Gohan? Piccolo also walks into battle with a decent amount of skill compared to someone like Cabba, who might I add, was exhausted by the time he had to take on Golden Frieza.

[Bullza]

No one ever explicitly stated that Piccolo was getting Gohan up to the same power level he was at during the Buu saga."

They referred to him getting back his original strength and showed a flashback to Ultimate Gohan when he fought Buu. He then reacquired that power. They then made a point of how Gohan could get stronger and then they carried on training and now somehow he's as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

It's odd.

When have power levels been linear? If that were the case, it makes no sense that Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin saw greater improvements than Goku did under the same training regimen.

Yeah but this would be like Tien and Yamcha training on King Kai's planet and suddenly becoming as strong as Super Saiyan Goku.

Sure, the gap got bigger after transformations were introduced, but 17 is an android with unlimited stamina and a starting power that far exceeded the original Frieza and Namek SSJ Goku. Who's to say that casual training over the years can't put him at SSB-tier?

His energy doesn't run out. I don't see how that correlates with it increasing hundreds of fold. His casual training accounted for more than Goku's much longer and much more serious training? Where he also had to give in to some ritual to gain even more power.

17, in his suppressed state, was shown fighting on par with SSB Goku, who like I previously indicated, wasn't exactly playing games. He also didn't intend on going SSB, yet he did, so comparing it with SSB Goku vs Krillin is not only baseless, but isn't even applicable as an analogy.

Regardless of all that though Super Saiyan Blue Goku was suppressed. Therefore it means little because we have no idea to what extent he was suppressing himself.

He wasn't really playing games when he blasted Kale with a Kamehameha to the face which she then walked through and picked Goku up by the skull.

That didn't stop what happened later though when Super Saiyan Blue Goku matched Super Saiyan Kefla, someone who would be thousands of times stronger than Kale.

The exact same could apply with Android 17.

Who's to say Piccolo didn't get stronger than he was when he nonchalantly wrecked SSJ2 Gohan?

He probably did but he had less than 48 hours to train. If he was as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who did not have his original strength then how can he overpower a Super Saiyan Blue level fighter from less than 2 days of training?

[buutenks]

Super wrote itself in a corner, and now its a mess power scaling wise. Tho the big picture is there:

Only ones who r ssj blue tier r Golden Freeza/Toppo/Hit and Kefla, while Dyspo is ssg tier(thanks to his speed). And Jiren is far above blue level. Everyone else is where the writer feels like placing them at that given moment.

On top of that, the anime unitentionally raised the gap between blue and Beerus, by adding this kaioken stuff. While its cool looking. it makes zero sense story whise. Since it would make Beerus thousands if not tens of thousands of times stronger than ssg, considering Beerus is close if not at Jiren's level, and Jiren crapped on ssj blue kkx20+ GK. Atleast in the manga, he is within reason.

[HeroR]

It’s impossible to tell if he is fighting close to his full power. He used a kamehameha against Kale that did nothing, but as a SSGod he was dealing with a stronger Kale and Caulifla with ease.

He has trouble with Kale even with a Super Saiyan God, Also, with 17 he specifically stated that he didn't intend to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against him. Which isn't the same as Kale.

[supercat]

No one ever explicitly stated that Piccolo was getting Gohan up to the same power level he was at during the Buu saga."

They referred to him getting back his original strength and showed a flashback to Ultimate Gohan when he fought Buu. He then reacquired that power. They then made a point of how Gohan could get stronger and then they carried on training and now somehow he's as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

It's odd.

When have power levels been linear? If that were the case, it makes no sense that Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin saw greater improvements than Goku did under the same training regimen.

Yeah but this would be like Tien and Yamcha training on King Kai's planet and suddenly becoming as strong as Super Saiyan Goku.

Sure, the gap got bigger after transformations were introduced, but 17 is an android with unlimited stamina and a starting power that far exceeded the original Frieza and Namek SSJ Goku. Who's to say that casual training over the years can't put him at SSB-tier?

His energy doesn't run out. I don't see how that correlates with it increasing hundreds of fold. His casual training accounted for more than Goku's much longer and much more serious training? Where he also had to give in to some ritual to gain even more power.

17, in his suppressed state, was shown fighting on par with SSB Goku, who like I previously indicated, wasn't exactly playing games. He also didn't intend on going SSB, yet he did, so comparing it with SSB Goku vs Krillin is not only baseless, but isn't even applicable as an analogy.

Regardless of all that though Super Saiyan Blue Goku was suppressed. Therefore it means little because we have no idea to what extent he was suppressing himself.

He wasn't really playing games when he blasted Kale with a Kamehameha to the face which she then walked through and picked Goku up by the skull.

That didn't stop what happened later though when Super Saiyan Blue Goku matched Super Saiyan Kefla, someone who would be thousands of times stronger than Kale.

The exact same could apply with Android 17.

Who's to say Piccolo didn't get stronger than he was when he nonchalantly wrecked SSJ2 Gohan?

He probably did but he had less than 48 hours to train. If he was as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who did not have his original strength then how can he overpower a Super Saiyan Blue level fighter from less than 2 days of training?

Just so you know, I don't agree with a single point that you made, nor do I feel like you were able to address let alone counter any of my previous points.

There's nothing odd about Ultimate Gohan reaching low SSB-tier. Tien and Yamcha don't have to reach SSJ Goku-tier. The point is, at that time, the power that Goku and Piccolo had when they faced off against Raditz was the benchmark. Not to mention, after the events of Dragon Ball, Goku and Piccolo had apparently stayed relatively close to where they were at during their last encounter with one another; which again shows that, at that point in time, those levels weren't to be taken lightly.

Then there's Raditz, a new character who far exceeds all of that. Seemingly invincible right? Well only until TIen and Yamcha do their training and surpass it like it's nothing. The quantity of power gained has never been linear, even when power levels were present. The important thing, and the reason I even used Tien and Yamcha surpassing Goku as an analogy was solely to show that others have reached and surpassed previously established benchmarks with minimal effort.

About 17, I feel like you may have missed the point that I was trying to make. We're talking about a character who not only started off with a power that far exceeded a space emperor that was feared all throughout the universe, but was able to casually humiliate legendary warriors that had seemingly obtained some legendary power with unrivaled limits. That to me isn't much different than 17 training and surpassing another version of the legendary transformation he started off stronger than in the first place; even if there was a ritual involved. This is a bit redundant, but why does it matter when said ritual was to power up a transformation that 17 had already started off stronger than?

I could go on about how this and that make zero sense, but that would all be irrelevant, since any event or circumstance that I may complain about already took place or was somehow shown, and is thus part of the story.

SSB Goku was suppressed, but so was 17. Not to mention, Goku actually took the time to compliment 17, while even nothing how the latter would have been a dangerous foe. That to me is a strong implication that 17 has to be at least 80-85% of SSB Goku to even elicit such a remark. Given Goku's natural fighting prowess and fighting experience, anything less than 85% would be an absolute stomp for him, even if the opponent did have unlimited stamina. So I doubt Goku would call someone he could casually wreck a potentially dangerous foe. Plus, if he had no intention of using SSB and then using it, it's a good indication that anything below that just wouldn't have cut it.

The SSJ2 Gohan that Piccolo wrecked was presumably far above any other level of SSJ2 Gohan had embodied up until that point. He had been training even before the Universe 6 tournament. So Piccolo only being SSJ2-tier is a downplay from multiple standpoints; for starters, he completely dominated Gohan, so that alone shows that he's at least notably stronger than this so-called SSJ2-tier fans keep going on about.

Piccolo has historically had one of the greatest power ups, so even if he were forced to cram his training into a matter of days, I could see him making major improvements. He was also able to push Base Goku, someone who not only fought better against Beerus than his SSJ3 self, but is presumably leagues above SSJ3 Gotenks. So at the very least, I see nothing wrong with Piccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) or Piccolo >> SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu. Oh and Piccolo's feat against Base Goku far exceeded anything SSJ3 Gotenks was able to do to Base Copy-Vegeta, another good indication that Piccolo likely surpassed the top contenders from the Buu saga.

[Bullza]

Just so you know, I don't agree with a single point that you made, nor do I feel like you were able to address let alone counter any of my previous points.

Your original comment was about the fandom. What I've explained is why the fandom have a problem with it.

There's nothing odd about Ultimate Gohan reaching low SSB-tier.

But if he's a match for Super Saiyan Blue Goku as their fight suggested then he wouldn't be low Super Saiyan Blue tier. He'd be far stronger than the Super Saiyan Rose Black who was making a fool out of Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta at the same time.

Then there's Raditz, a new character who far exceeds all of that. Seemingly invincible right? Well only until TIen and Yamcha do their training and surpass it like it's nothing.

That's not nearly the same though.

At one point Base Goku was ridiculously more powerful than Super Saiyan Gohan. Since then Goku has spent time training with Whis, trained 3 years with Vegeta and had a anger boost which skyrocketed his power.

Somehow Gohan has improved to a much greater extent that he's gone from being completely incomparable to him to as strong as him with a fraction of the amount of time and tools available to him.

That is what people have a problem with.

SSB Goku was suppressed, but so was 17.

But for all we know, Android 17 could have been holding back so he was only using 4/5th of his strength while Goku could have been holding back to a 1/100th.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku fired a Kamehameha at Android 17 who easily blocked it with a force field. This same force field was shattered by Ribrianne. Ribrianne being weaker than Base Goku.

Also it depends what Goku meant by Android 17 holding back because it was either in the last episode or the one before it where Android 17 pulled out some new technique to which Goku said that he was holding something back, which refers to their previous fight.

So rather than holding back power he could have been holding back an ability instead.

All Android 17 has done here has matched Ribrianne, someone that Base Vegeta defeated easily and beat one of the weaker ones easily.

Android 17 did nothing when hit by the Black Hole and didn't even get to his feet whereas Base Goku did and then Super Saiyan Blue Goku completely destroyed. So he has done nothing impressive in this whole Tournament yet.

Oh and Piccolo's feat against Base Goku far exceeded anything SSJ3 Gotenks was able to do to Base Copy-Vegeta, another good indication that Piccolo likely surpassed the top contenders from the Buu saga.

Well to be fair Krillin was able to push Goku back so I don't know how much that applies to anything.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s impossible to tell if he is fighting close to his full power. He used a kamehameha against Kale that did nothing, but as a SSGod he was dealing with a stronger Kale and Caulifla with ease.

He has trouble with Kale even with a Super Saiyan God, Also, with 17 he specifically stated that he didn't intend to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against him. Which isn't the same as Kale.

She faired a little better than Caulifla, but it was just that. I don’t see what kind of trouble she did to Goku. He was about to finish them both. Also, I don’t see the point of not intending to use SSB against 17. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t use a weaker form if he wanted. Unless you think 17 is stronger than Kale.

[supercat]

Just so you know, I don't agree with a single point that you made, nor do I feel like you were able to address let alone counter any of my previous points.

Your original comment was about the fandom. What I've explained is why the fandom have a problem with it.

There's nothing odd about Ultimate Gohan reaching low SSB-tier.

But if he's a match for Super Saiyan Blue Goku as their fight suggested then he wouldn't be low Super Saiyan Blue tier. He'd be far stronger than the Super Saiyan Rose Black who was making a fool out of Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta at the same time.

Then there's Raditz, a new character who far exceeds all of that. Seemingly invincible right? Well only until TIen and Yamcha do their training and surpass it like it's nothing.

That's not nearly the same though.

At one point Base Goku was ridiculously more powerful than Super Saiyan Gohan. Since then Goku has spent time training with Whis, trained 3 years with Vegeta and had a anger boost which skyrocketed his power.

Somehow Gohan has improved to a much greater extent that he's gone from being completely incomparable to him to as strong as him with a fraction of the amount of time and tools available to him.

That is what people have a problem with.

SSB Goku was suppressed, but so was 17.

But for all we know, Android 17 could have been holding back so he was only using 4/5th of his strength while Goku could have been holding back to a 1/100th.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku fired a Kamehameha at Android 17 who easily blocked it with a force field. This same force field was shattered by Ribrianne. Ribrianne being weaker than Base Goku.

Also it depends what Goku meant by Android 17 holding back because it was either in the last episode or the one before it where Android 17 pulled out some new technique to which Goku said that he was holding something back, which refers to their previous fight.

So rather than holding back power he could have been holding back an ability instead.

All Android 17 has done here has matched Ribrianne, someone that Base Vegeta defeated easily and beat one of the weaker ones easily.

Android 17 did nothing when hit by the Black Hole and didn't even get to his feet whereas Base Goku did and then Super Saiyan Blue Goku completely destroyed. So he has done nothing impressive in this whole Tournament yet.

Oh and Piccolo's feat against Base Goku far exceeded anything SSJ3 Gotenks was able to do to Base Copy-Vegeta, another good indication that Piccolo likely surpassed the top contenders from the Buu saga.

Well to be fair Krillin was able to push Goku back so I don't know how much that applies to anything.

But the fandom having a problem with power ups or anything pertaining to the story for that matter is not relevant, as complaints won't stop the story from progressing in a certain manner. If I sat here and whined about everything I felt was a plot hole, would that change how the story is told? No. Just because a few fans feel certain things have to be a certain way, doesn't mean that's the case. So no, I don't agree with anything you said, and I feel nothing you said even comes close to countering my points.

Um no, you could be low SSB-tier and still hold your own against a higher contender in the same power bracket. Nothing wrong with that. Their fight also suggested Goku was clearly the stronger of the two, with Gohan tagging somewhat closely along.

Again, you keep saying you have a problem with this and that, but at the end of the day, if the series depicts a particular scenario in particular way, I don't see why we as fans should doubt or question it. Sure, the Whis training and the power ups obtained throughout Super seemingly far exceed anything obtained early on in DB or DBZ, but it's moreso the actual concept of benchmarks being surpassed itself than anything else in my opinion.

While surpassing Raditz seems like a small feat now, at that time, it was a huge milestone when you consider where everyone started off at the start of DBZ. And if you factor in things from the anime, Tien and Yamcha in like a week's worth of time, far surpassed the Ginyu Force, a group of seemingly invincible fighters who gave a major thrashing to the previous saga's main villain (Vegeta). The same Vegeta that Goku had a hard time with after spending way more time with King Kai than Tien and Yamcha had at that point.

So in short, that would basically mean Goku, despite his Saiyan abilities AND including Kaioken x4 only got around 30x stronger, while Tien and Yamcha, who should at least have powerlevels of 90,000 and 60,000 respectively to pull off what they were able to on the Ginyus saw a 60-90x increase with the absence of a power increasing technique like Kaioken. Why should Tien be at least 90,000? Because he used multiform and still wrecked Jeice and Burter, who I feel are around 40,000 each. Then there's the fact that it took Goku 6 months to reach his Saiyan Saga power, while it took TIen and Yamcha a week or so to reach some Ginyu-busting-tier, which again is at least 3-4 fold of Goku's max after King Kai's. If we exclude Kaioken from the equation, the comparison becomes even more ridiculous.

So there's really nothing farfetched about 17, a fighter who started off stronger than SSJ Goku and Namek Frieza, surpassing ritual form and reaching SSB-tier when Tien and Yamcha could were able to accomplish the feat described above.

We could sit here and try to guess just how suppressed both 17 and Goku were, but their clash points towards Goku using a lot more than some believe for various reasons:

-He is shown physically exerting more effort namely based on his facial expressions along with being on the offensive.

-He had no intention of going SSB, but decided to do so. If he felt SSJ3 or ritual form would have done the trick, wouldn't have just chosen one of the two, especially since he didn't ever intend on going SSB?

-The forcefield probably has varying levels of defensive power much akin to blasts or any other ki-based technique.

-17 holding back an ability vs power is another baseless speculation with nothing really supporting its validity. Especially when Goku clearly indicated 17 was holding back after their first battle.

-Why would Goku even call 17 a dangerous foe if he could flat-out destroy him with one of his weaker transformations? Unless 17 were at least 80-85% of SSB Goku's full power, there's no way Goku would make such a comment. If 17 were only SSJ3 or ritual form tier like some are suggesting, Goku's natural fighting ability would easily secure the win, and thus would not be something worth complimenting on.

-17 doing nothing in the black hole is far more ambiguous than 17 actually giving SSB Goku a good fight. Goku looked far more determined to get out of there than 17 was. Plus from an out-of-universe standpoint, that scene was likely their to showcase the father son moment.

Krillin's matches against Goku and Gohan was to really emphasize his talent as a fighter. It was likely this talent along with fighting within the boundaries of a tournament that allowed him to do as well as he did. Piccolo on the other hand simply launched a blast at Goku (not much skill there) that was apparently far more effective than anything SSJ3 Gotenks was able to do to a weaker Base Copy-Vegeta, someone who had not yet even gone through the grueling training and power ups obtained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and during their numerous encounters with Zamasu.

Like I said, people seem to give far too much credit to feats that seemingly weaken a character, but go above and beyond to disregard any feat that makes that same character appear stronger than they'd like.

[Miracles]

Kefla having said the fight was '' far from over '' does not change the fact that she proved unable to keep up with Goku's speed and clearly felt the impact of his punch.

And it didn't damage her nor give Goku the advantage, so the punch meant nothing. That's why she said she was "far from over."

When was Goku able to rival Merged Zamasu? He used all his strength and even broke his arms, are totally different situations (not to mention that Zamasu was surprised because the Kamehameha broke through his attack suddenly).

But according to you since a TIRED Goku was able to get some attacks on fused Zamasu, even hurt him and overpower him, Zamasu shouldn't be as strong to rival Vegetto in power later. Same here with Kefla, since a TIRED Goku shouldn't be able to punch Kefla or speed behind her without noticing, since she is equal to the genki dama, right?

Even VEGETA took damage from Katopesla's punches when he was not focused on the fight, and Kefla did not even knock or knock him out. She caught Goku by surprise this was clear but you insist on denying the Saiyajin just went back to its base form by being out of energy). After taking Goku's punch, Kefla does not increase his power, just tries to attack Goku again. Not even on EP 116 did she show a greater power in her SSJ form. At no point was it said she was holding on (Goku was still tired). And I'm not going to explain Whis's speech again, you talk as if this interpretation is something absolute, it takes it very literally.

AFTER KEFLA'S ARMS GO NUMB SHE POWERS UP HER SSJ. WHICH SHOWS SHE WASN'T FULL POWER. THIS IS A FACT. The bold in your post is false.We all see Goku get KO'd back into base mode by Kefla's kick. Show me where it was stated that Goku was off guard and went back to base mode cause he was out of energy? Show me the statements? You don't go by the canon, you are trying to make YOUR own desires fact. BUT TOEI is telling the story here and they specifically DEFINED that Kefla's power in SSJ is equal to the bomb. A CLEAR and blunt statement that leaves NO room for interpretation from the audience. THAT is the TRUTH and what you are stating is merely conjecture, passing an opinion off as a fact can do nothing against the truth. Kefla's SSJ power is equal to the Spirit bomb stated and confirmed by Dragonball Super. I will stay with the facts of the story not with what a fan thinks what the writers meant to say.

After Kefla's arms go numb with Goku's punch, she increases her power and EVEN she does not follow Goku's speed and shivers to get up after taking another punch. WATCH the EP again

The episode does not have to narrate EVERY minor detail just because you want it. It was clear that Goku did not notice Kefla's approach and was surprised by her kick, after all, the Kamehameha had blocked his sight. And it's so obvious that it's just a matter of watching the episode, it's always been like this (it needs to be said that Vegeta> Goku in the FT Saga? No, that was clear, while Vegeta overcame Black, Goku lost to him).

But the most convenient for you is to act as if you do not know how to understand something so simple and only consider the speech as an irrefutable fact (as if TOEI explained EVERYTHING in the anime). It's also very convenient for you to ignore Whis's speech shortly after comparing Kefla's power with that of GK (speaking that she prompted Goku to activate the UI). But it seems that there are no interpretations when it is convenient (the funniest thing is you ignore the speeches of Vados and Champa with Fear of Kefla SSJ face Goku SSB TIRED)

TOEI already defined Kefla's power CLEARLY without confusion. So that means I don't need a false interpretation from the fandom. This is why there is so much confusion within the community cause they simply don't accept what the story gives them. Super's scaling isn't the problem it's the fan base mixing it up. Canon truth > opinions. You can believe what you want but I won't stay confused cause I accept the facts. Thanks for the discussion.

[Green]

The problem lies in the discrepancy between feats and statements: Kafla was clearly shown to be on SSB Goku's level, weaker than whatever Kaioken level he showed. She won because she outsmarted him and scored a clear hit, but in the next episode we are supposed to believe she was stronger than the Genkidama all along? Would you really believe she was so strong prior to that episode?
Either the Genkidama is weaker than Goku himself or she was holding back/powered up mysteriously. The former isn't obviously the case and thus we conclude that she is indeed stronger than KKx20 and her showings in that specific episode were inconsistent.

We had the exact same discussion when Goku fought SS2 Caulifla: he was supposedly super skilled at fighting and could push her back because of that, yet their punches were equally as strong and he was even faster. I'd say Miracles is "right" and statements should be prioritized in these situations.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think what makes things much harder is that fights aren't predicated on "pure DBZ power", as I like to refer to it as.

Fighters can exchange blows and pit their moves against each other irregardless of power level with some notable exceptions, and "clean hits" has replaced "taken off guard" as the justification; a clean hit means your opponent just got a blow landed on them that they shouldn't have, thus sending them flying.

Even if it doesn't do damage, you'll still be feeling the hit.

[HeroR]

It’s impossible to tell if he is fighting close to his full power. He used a kamehameha against Kale that did nothing, but as a SSGod he was dealing with a stronger Kale and Caulifla with ease.

He has trouble with Kale even with a Super Saiyan God, Also, with 17 he specifically stated that he didn't intend to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against him. Which isn't the same as Kale.

She faired a little better than Caulifla, but it was just that. I don’t see what kind of trouble she did to Goku. He was about to finish them both. Also, I don’t see the point of not intending to use SSB against 17. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t use a weaker form if he wanted. Unless you think 17 is stronger than Kale.

A little better? Cali couldn’t do anything against Super Saiyan God Goku while Kale was trading blows with him and had no marks on her. And he tried to finished them by destroying the piece of the arena they were on. He didn’t directly attack Kale.

Then why didn’t Goku if he didn’t want to use Blue? Especially when 17 was holding back as well.

[Bullza]

But the fandom having a problem with power ups or anything pertaining to the story for that matter is not relevant, as complaints won't stop the story from progressing in a certain manner.

It doesn't matter to the story at all but fans still don't like it, which is what this is about. Would you want to see Yamcha go into the Rosat and for an hour and come out as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku? Probably not.

People like these things to make some form of sense.

Um no, you could be low SSB-tier and still hold your own against a higher contender in the same power bracket.

We already saw that happen and it didn't work out that way at all. Super Saiyan Rose Black easily beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku. He fought against Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at the same time and they couldn't even hit him.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta easily bear the tar out of Super Saiyan Rose Black.

The difference between them was much smaller than Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Resurrection F saga and the current saga.

Then there's the fact that it took Goku 6 months to reach his Saiyan Saga power, while it took TIen and Yamcha a week or so to reach some Ginyu-busting-tier, which again is at least 3-4 fold of Goku's max after King Kai's. If we exclude Kaioken from the equation, the comparison becomes even more ridiculous.

Well Goku went from about 400 to 8,000 so about 20 times stronger. Tien and Yamcha might be about 2,000 or so and they might have also got about 20 times stronger yes it would only be in a week but at least they had sparring partners.

Otherwise it is is equally ridiculous. It is the same sort of problem, just because that was odd doesn't make the other stuff less odd.

Why would Goku even call 17 a dangerous foe if he could flat-out destroy him with one of his weaker transformations?

Well he would be. Wouldn't Final Form Frieza count as a dangerous foe back in the Resurrection F saga not counting the Golden form?

All we know about Android 17 was that while holding back he matched Super Saiyan Blue Goku who was holding back. Both of them holding back to an unknown extent.

That is not really that different from Kale walking all over Super Saiyan Blue Goku while he was holding back. People back then said that Kale was Blue level because of that and you had the usual happen where the fandom complained and people tried to come up with reasons and all that and eventually we found out that no Kale isn't Blue level nor anywhere near comparable to it.

So Ultimate Gohan is one thing but Android 17 until he actually fights a Super Saiyan Blue level fighter who is fighting seriously and he holds his own then I couldn't say confidently he was that level.

I can't see Android 17 being intended to be on the same level as Toppo, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta or Golden Frieza. Not when his best so far in this Tournament is him matching the weak Ribrianne.

[The gr]

#17 power is confusing,where can't we put him SSG or SSGSS ROF

[supercat]

But the fandom having a problem with power ups or anything pertaining to the story for that matter is not relevant, as complaints won't stop the story from progressing in a certain manner.

It doesn't matter to the story at all but fans still don't like it, which is what this is about. Would you want to see Yamcha go into the Rosat and for an hour and come out as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku? Probably not.

People like these things to make some form of sense.

Um no, you could be low SSB-tier and still hold your own against a higher contender in the same power bracket.

We already saw that happen and it didn't work out that way at all. Super Saiyan Rose Black easily beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku. He fought against Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at the same time and they couldn't even hit him.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta easily bear the tar out of Super Saiyan Rose Black.

The difference between them was much smaller than Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Resurrection F saga and the current saga.

Then there's the fact that it took Goku 6 months to reach his Saiyan Saga power, while it took TIen and Yamcha a week or so to reach some Ginyu-busting-tier, which again is at least 3-4 fold of Goku's max after King Kai's. If we exclude Kaioken from the equation, the comparison becomes even more ridiculous.

Well Goku went from about 400 to 8,000 so about 20 times stronger. Tien and Yamcha might be about 2,000 or so and they might have also got about 20 times stronger yes it would only be in a week but at least they had sparring partners.

Otherwise it is is equally ridiculous. It is the same sort of problem, just because that was odd doesn't make the other stuff less odd.

Why would Goku even call 17 a dangerous foe if he could flat-out destroy him with one of his weaker transformations?

Well he would be. Wouldn't Final Form Frieza count as a dangerous foe back in the Resurrection F saga not counting the Golden form?

All we know about Android 17 was that while holding back he matched Super Saiyan Blue Goku who was holding back. Both of them holding back to an unknown extent.

That is not really that different from Kale walking all over Super Saiyan Blue Goku while he was holding back. People back then said that Kale was Blue level because of that and you had the usual happen where the fandom complained and people tried to come up with reasons and all that and eventually we found out that no Kale isn't Blue level nor anywhere near comparable to it.

So Ultimate Gohan is one thing but Android 17 until he actually fights a Super Saiyan Blue level fighter who is fighting seriously and he holds his own then I couldn't say confidently he was that level.

I can't see Android 17 being intended to be on the same level as Toppo, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta or Golden Frieza. Not when his best so far in this Tournament is him matching the weak Ribrianne.

We're seriously going in circles. I honestly do not see what is so difficult about simply accepting feats and statements for what they are, instead of constantly coming up with farfetched theories for the purpose of justifying a particular outcome or instance. I don't see why anyone would ever want to go through all that just to justify a story that they didn't even write.

Just because a particular group of fans don't like how certain things play out, doesn't mean it HAS to be that way, or that any given theory or speculation that seems more logical is the truth.

Dragon Ball doesn't have to make sense for me to like it. In well over a decade, I've never once had a problem with the power scale. And to answer your question, I wouldn't have any problem with Yamcha reaching SSB-tier, as long as there was some form of training or some vague explanation or feat supporting it. I would find it refreshing in the sense that limitations aren't a thing even for those who were once thought to be long retired.

I'm not sure why you keep going on about this Super Saiyan Rose thing, but that has nothing to do with Ultimate Gohan vs SSB Goku.

I'm not sure if you read my post, but Tien was soloing both Jeice and Burter, even after using multiform. Meaning, Tien has to be at leaast 90,000 to be able to take them on as easily as he did, as Burter and Jeice are likely 40,000 each; therefore, Tien's multiform copies would have to be around 45,000 each for him to take them on so casually. Taking all those points into consideration, the increase that Tien made without Kaioken, with a mere week's worth of training was on the low end 45x. Training with one another could have helped a tad, but you forget Goku has a number of other advantages; Zenkais, Kaioken, and a vastly greater amount of time spent with King Kai one on one. So unless you think Tien and Yamcha sparring with Piccolo somehow outweighs Zenkais, I don't see how things were in the group's favor.

And me using the scenario above is to help convey two points:

-Power levels aren't linear.

-Benchmarks set by Goku have historically been surpassed by his less gifted comrades. This really makes 17's improvements even more plausible, as again, he started off stronger than some legendary transformation that instilled fear upon a seemingly unbeatable tyrant feared throughout the universe.

Are you seriously comparing Frieza to Android 17? You do realize that Frieza has likely left a far worse imprint in Goku's mind than 17, someone he's never even met prior to their battle has right? Goku calling Frieza a dangerous foe doesn't help downplay 17 at all.

You can keep going on about where you feel 17 should stand, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he still has a scene where he fights on par with SSB Goku. I just find it hilarious how anytime there is a feat that positively supports a particular character's powerlevel and/or improvements, people find whatever excuse they can to downplay it. But on that same note, any feat that even subtly downgrades the same character in discussion even a tad is looked at as some undeniable fact, despite a greater degree of ambiguity in said scenario.

Oh and I also find it funny how people have no problem assuming SSB Goku held back, but when it comes to 17 vs Ribrianne, 17 holding back isn't really a consideration.

I really feel you and I aren't going to agree on any of this, so is there even a purpose in resuming this discussion? I know with certainty that I won't change my perception on the matter. Especially given how easily I'm able to refute everything point by point.

[majinwarman]

I don't think Kale is stronger than the Namekians. A weak SSG Goku was able to keep up with her.

I think Kale is between God and Blue level or maybe she is weaker than the Namekians.

She is weaker than God level (as shown in ep 114) and the Namekians are as well. They are below mystic Gohan who imo is probably below SSG.

I think Gohan is above SSG.

[Hugo Boss]

He has trouble with Kale even with a Super Saiyan God, Also, with 17 he specifically stated that he didn't intend to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against him. Which isn't the same as Kale.

She faired a little better than Caulifla, but it was just that. I don’t see what kind of trouble she did to Goku. He was about to finish them both. Also, I don’t see the point of not intending to use SSB against 17. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t use a weaker form if he wanted. Unless you think 17 is stronger than Kale.

A little better? Cali couldn’t do anything against Super Saiyan God Goku while Kale was trading blows with him and had no marks on her. And he tried to finished them by destroying the piece of the arena they were on. He didn’t directly attack Kale.

Then why didn’t Goku if he didn’t want to use Blue? Especially when 17 was holding back as well.

Trading blows with Goku and not showing badly damage is not what I would call much better. Kafla yes, I would admit it. But that’s not really the point here. They would be finished if they didn’t merge together, despite the manner Goku used the kamehameha.

I don’t know the answer to that, but Goku is not saying 17 is stronger than the other forms. That’s like putting words in his mouth. Perhaps he felt 17 deserved a little respect.

[dragon boss z]

I think Kale is between God and Blue level or maybe she is weaker than the Namekians.

She is weaker than God level (as shown in ep 114) and the Namekians are as well. They are below mystic Gohan who imo is probably below SSG.

I think Gohan is above SSG.

Maybe, but until I see real proof of him being above SSG I'll have him bellow. Having trouble with Obuni or the U6 Namekians is something I don't see happening to SSG Goku. I don't think Gohan is as strong as Kale and Kale turned out to be weaker than a tired SSG Goku.