Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Initial Merged Zamasu wasn't that impressive, he's the same as in the manga: way stronger than SSB but comparable to a better form (Mastered SSB or Kaioken). Now Light of Justice MZ is another business, considering how he performed againts Vegetto.

Kafla is just plain strong, call it lesbian boost or whatever, she's way more impressive than any other fusion we've seen. We do know that Jiren is stronger than Anime MZ, and of consequence SSB Vegetto, but I never seemed to understand whether Shin was referring to his hypothetical full power (which would make more sense) or his level when he pushed back the Genkidama.

That is just wrong. What puts Jiren's power above Vegetto ? Is it because he is stronger than Beerus ? Then what puts Beerus's power above Vegetto ? Nothing suggested that Beerus is stronger than Merged Zamasu or Vegetto, fan just got lost in headcanon as they always do.

The only known boost is the rival boost (which is still debatable) and Caulifla isn' t a rival to Kale, Kelfa needed SSJ berserk to be slightly stronger than a tired SSB Goku and she needed a sneak attack on the head to KO a tired SSBKKx ? Goku, suddenly she is stronger than Vegetto SSB as a SSJ 2 who is the potara fusion of full power SSB Goku and Vegeta ? Where is the logic in that.
Remember that the Blue form of Goku is supposedly stronger in FT arc than in the ToP arc since Goku got weaker because he didn't have a single fight in 9 month.

a lot of things suggest beerus is stronger than merged zamasu, jiren is part of the equation. Jiren was made to be stronger than a god of destruction, and zamasu was never stated to be at G.O.D level. You see, we have 3 sources stating jiren to be at the realm of G.O.D (the anime, manga, and the toei website). We have no sources telling us merged zamasu is in that level, and we only have one source speculating vegito ssb to be at beerus level (manga). the people saying merged zamasu is beyond beerus really have no evidence.

[ZombieVito]

Merged Zamasu in the anime is GoD tier once he gets corrupted.

I'm pretty sure he can beat the lower GoD's.

[SupremeKai25]

the people saying merged zamasu is beyond beerus really have no evidence.

Vegeta says that he has never seen a God let off such energy. Gowasu says that Fused Zamasu's power has expanded to no end (and he also agrees with Vegeta that Zamasu's Light is unlike any they've ever seen before). Shin says that his standing as a God is beyond even their understanding. Goku remarked previously in the arc that Zamasu had the potential to rival even Beerus one day.

No one is saying that Fused Zamasu is beyond Beerus, people are saying the he could -rival- Beerus in power.

In addition, it is stated by Vados that Jiren's power transcends time and space, just like Fused Zamasu's did (when he became an ethereal being who merged with the Universe and ascended to the 4th dimension).

[Green]

Initial Merged Zamasu wasn't that impressive, he's the same as in the manga: way stronger than SSB but comparable to a better form (Mastered SSB or Kaioken). Now Light of Justice MZ is another business, considering how he performed againts Vegetto.

Kafla is just plain strong, call it lesbian boost or whatever, she's way more impressive than any other fusion we've seen. We do know that Jiren is stronger than Anime MZ, and of consequence SSB Vegetto, but I never seemed to understand whether Shin was referring to his hypothetical full power (which would make more sense) or his level when he pushed back the Genkidama.

That is just wrong. What puts Jiren's power above Vegetto ? Is it because he is stronger than Beerus ? Then what puts Beerus's power above Vegetto ? Nothing suggested that Beerus is stronger than Merged Zamasu or Vegetto, fan just got lost in headcanon as they always do.

The only known boost is the rival boost (which is still debatable) and Caulifla isn' t a rival to Kale, Kelfa needed SSJ berserk to be slightly stronger than a tired SSB Goku and she needed a sneak attack on the head to KO a tired SSBKKx ? Goku, suddenly she is stronger than Vegetto SSB as a SSJ 2 who is the potara fusion of full power SSB Goku and Vegeta ? Where is the logic in that.
Remember that the Blue form of Goku is supposedly stronger in FT arc than in the ToP arc since Goku got weaker because he didn't have a single fight in 9 month.

Shin: He's (Jiren) just strong, completely different from anyone we've faced before (Merged Zamasu included)

Vegetto isn't that stronger than MZ, unless you want to argue otherwise: his attacks had no effect at all, including the Final Kamehameha. We know from the manga that he may be stronger than Beerus, thus we get:

Beerus >=< Vegetto
Vegetto >= Merged Zamasu
Jiren > Merged Zamasu

Kafla as a SS2 is ridicolously strong beyond any logic (drop that reasoning and just go with the flow, Toei doesn't like logic and scaling), but is she stronger than Vegetto Blue? I don't think so, Jiren is Hakaishin level only when at full power imo.

[Noah]

Shin: He's (Jiren) just strong, completely different from anyone we've faced before (Merged Zamasu included).

The episode number and minute of the said line, please?

[Green]

Dunno about the minute, 110 after Jiren repels the bomb.

[Kenneth La Torre]

the people saying merged zamasu is beyond beerus really have no evidence.

Vegeta says that he has never seen a God let off such energy. Gowasu says that Fused Zamasu's power has expanded to no end (and he also agrees with Vegeta that Zamasu's Light is unlike any they've ever seen before). Shin says that his standing as a God is beyond even their understanding. Goku remarked previously in the arc that Zamasu had the potential to rival even Beerus one day.

No one is saying that Fused Zamasu is beyond Beerus, people are saying the he could -rival- Beerus in power.

In addition, it is stated by Vados that Jiren's power transcends time and space, just like Fused Zamasu's did (when he became an ethereal being who merged with the Universe and ascended to the 4th dimension).

Vegeta has every right to say that hes never seen anyone let that much power out, as beerus never fought them at full power, so its understandable. Gowasu also has every right to say that his power has expanded to no visible end, as he went from kai level, to a level above any unfused SSB, which is already very strong. And shin also has the right to say that his standing as a god is beyond their understanding, as no supreme kai is even remotely close to a SSB in power, i even doub any supreme kai is above super buu in power. And about what goku said,he said that zamasu would become a strong god like beerus, not to rival beerus. And zamasu did indeed become a strong god, just not one who G.O.D level.

There is literally no statement comparing merged zamasu to the G.o.Ds. while jiren has 1 that states he is G.o.D level (toei website), one that says he is above belmod in power (manga), and another that says he may even surpass G.o.D level in general (Anime).

I'm not here to say corrupted merged zamasu would get one shotted, as i do believe gods of destruction would have to put in some effort, but i believe every single G.o.D is above merged zamasu if they use their full power.

Also, About Vegito, i have no problem putting him at the level of G.o.D. there is no way that a potara fusion of two SSB would not enter that domain of power, especially if the potara is actually "person A × Person B".

Edit: thanks to who ever deleted my post,messed up completely

[SupremeKai25]

I'm not here to say corrupted merged zamasu would get one shotted, as i do believe gods of destruction would have to put in some effort, but i believe every single G.o.D is above merged zamasu if they use their full power.

I do agree with that. It's what i've been trying to prove. I don't believe Fused Zamasu would be able to defeat Beerus, but he would definitely make Beerus fight seriously (which is quite an impressive feat anyway). I reckon Corrupted Fused Zamasu is stronger, since he used the Light of Justice to damage himself and draw strength from his pain and anger (like Goku Black did, actually, prior to fusing). Regardless, i give up and accept that Jiren and Kefla would both defeat Fused Zamasu. Not even Zamasu can shatter their thick plot armor.

Also, as a side note, i don't think the Hakai of a God of Destruction can erase a being who has been granted immortality by the Super Dragon Balls. In the manga, Beerus confirms it, whereas in the anime Whis implies it. So Beerus can't just get rid of Fused Zamasu by using the Hakai, because half of Zamasu's body (the Future Zamasu's part) and Fused Zamasu's soul are immortal.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I'm not here to say corrupted merged zamasu would get one shotted, as i do believe gods of destruction would have to put in some effort, but i believe every single G.o.D is above merged zamasu if they use their full power.

I do agree with that. It's what i've been trying to prove. I don't believe Fused Zamasu would be able to defeat Beerus, but he would definitely make Beerus fight seriously (which is quite an impressive feat anyway). I reckon Corrupted Fused Zamasu is stronger, since he used the Light of Justice to damage himself and draw strength from his pain and anger (like Goku Black did, actually, prior to fusing). Regardless, i give up and accept that Jiren and Kefla would both defeat Fused Zamasu. Not even Zamasu can shatter their thick plot armor.

Also, as a side note, i don't think the Hakai of a God of Destruction can erase a being who has been granted immortality by the Super Dragon Balls. In the manga, Beerus confirms it, whereas in the anime Whis implies it. So Beerus can't just get rid of Fused Zamasu by using the Hakai, because half of Zamasu's body (the Future Zamasu's part) and Fused Zamasu's soul are immortal.

As much as it pains me, and you as well, i too have to accept that merged crybaby would lose to Super Kaliflower. Which is bullshit writting to be honest. Blue vegetable would probably do it tho, but even then its iffy.

Also, i think beerus stated in the manga that he cant hakai immortal beings, so i guess you are right on that.

[dragon boss z]

I'm not here to say corrupted merged zamasu would get one shotted, as i do believe gods of destruction would have to put in some effort, but i believe every single G.o.D is above merged zamasu if they use their full power.

I do agree with that. It's what i've been trying to prove. I don't believe Fused Zamasu would be able to defeat Beerus, but he would definitely make Beerus fight seriously (which is quite an impressive feat anyway). I reckon Corrupted Fused Zamasu is stronger, since he used the Light of Justice to damage himself and draw strength from his pain and anger (like Goku Black did, actually, prior to fusing). Regardless, i give up and accept that Jiren and Kefla would both defeat Fused Zamasu. Not even Zamasu can shatter their thick plot armor.

Also, as a side note, i don't think the Hakai of a God of Destruction can erase a being who has been granted immortality by the Super Dragon Balls. In the manga, Beerus confirms it, whereas in the anime Whis implies it. So Beerus can't just get rid of Fused Zamasu by using the Hakai, because half of Zamasu's body (the Future Zamasu's part) and Fused Zamasu's soul are immortal.

As much as it pains me, and you as well, i too have to accept that merged crybaby would lose to Super Kaliflower. Which is bullshit writting to be honest. Blue vegetable would probably do it tho, but even then its iffy.

Also, i think beerus stated in the manga that he cant hakai immortal beings, so i guess you are right on that.

What makes you think that Kafla would beat merged Zamasu?

from looking at the manga and the anime I think it goes like this

SSG Goku<=base Caulifla<SSB Goku<=base Vegito<=ssj Caulifla<=kkx20 Goku<ssj2 Caulifla<=merged Zamasu<=UI Goku<Beerus<=>SSB Vegito<=>Jiren

[Lord Beerus]

Not really much to get out this episode. It much less of a fighting per-se episode, and more of a cat-and-mouse style of scenario.

Base Vegeta batters around Katopesla.
Katopesla goes into "Ultimate" Mode. Becoming 300 times stronger and faster.
Katopesla (Ultimate Mode) and SSJ Vegeta fight and have a beam clash. SSJ Vegeta easily comes out on top.

All of the other fights, if you even want to call them that, were a bit too brief to really make much out of.

EDIT: NEP doesn't show much. The Universe 3 robots fuse together and Gohan goes Ultimate.

[BlueBasilisk]

Not really much to get out this episode. It much less of a fighting per-se episode, and more of a cat-and-mouse style of scenario.

Base Vegeta batter around Katopesla.
Katopesla goes into "Ultimate" Mode
Becoming 300 times stronger and faster.
Katopesla (Ultimate Mode) and SSJ Vegeta fight and have a beam clash. SSJ Vegeta easily comes out on top.

All of the other fights, if you even want to call them that, were a bit too brief to really make much out of.

EDIT: NEP doesn't show much. The Universe 3 robots fuse together and Gohan goes Ultimate.

I see what you did there.

Yeah, not much to go on here but none of the U4 fighters appeared all that strong. Once their gimmicks were figured out they were gone PDQ.

[Lord Beerus]

Not really much to get out this episode. It much less of a fighting per-se episode, and more of a cat-and-mouse style of scenario.

Base Vegeta batters around Katopesla.
Katopesla goes into "Ultimate" Mode. Becoming 300 times stronger and faster.
Katopesla (Ultimate Mode) and SSJ Vegeta fight and have a beam clash. SSJ Vegeta easily comes out on top.

All of the other fights, if you even want to call them that, were a bit too brief to really make much out of.

EDIT: NEP doesn't show much. The Universe 3 robots fuse together and Gohan goes Ultimate.

I see what you did there.

Yeah, not much to go on here but none of the U4 fighters appeared all that strong. Once their gimmicks were figured out they were gone PDQ.

Hey, you're not gonna get my "A" material in this kind of thread.

[Lord Beerus]

Extended NEP shows that Universe 3 robots fused together are no pushovers.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Another episode focused on technique and combat skill than power levels, though the exchange between Vegeta and Katopesla should at least provide some decent fuel for the fire.

Katopesla got over 300 times stronger than his previous self which was 300 times stronger than his normal self, but SS Vegeta with his 50 times boost was doing just fine and turned out to be the more powerful of the two. The NEP is the interesting bit, as we see the three Universe 3 robots fuse into the Megazord, whom looks to be taking on SSB Goku and Vegeta, as well as Ultimate Gohan.

We'll see if the next episode clarifies where Ultimate Gohan stands next to his father next week, considering that Gohan in the NEP says he'll unleash all his power.

[majinwarman]

Another episode focused on technique and combat skill than power levels, though the exchange between Vegeta and Katopesla should at least provide some decent fuel for the fire.

Katopesla got over 300 times stronger than his previous self which was 300 times stronger than his normal self, but SS Vegeta with his 50 times boost was doing just fine and turned out to be the more powerful of the two. The NEP is the interesting bit, as we see the three Universe 3 robots fuse into the Megazord, whom looks to be taking on SSB Goku and Vegeta, as well as Ultimate Gohan.

We'll see if the next episode clarifies where Ultimate Gohan stands next to his father next week, considering that Gohan in the NEP says he'll unleash all his power.

I don't think he is stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta but he is close. I can't wait for the next episode.

[precita]

I find it hard to believe all those weak robots combined would take both Blue Goku and Vegeta, and then Gohan, to bring them down...what.

We're expected to believe their power increases a million times over when separately they were all useless?

[Bullza]

I find it hard to believe all those weak robots combined would take both Blue Goku and Vegeta, and then Gohan, to bring them down...what.

We're expected to believe their power increases a million times over when separately they were all useless?

Were they? I can't remember.

I can only remember Base Gohan firing a Kamehameha at one of them which had no effect either because he made a barrier or fired a stronger blast. I can't remember but it did nothing.

It might not take all three of them, we'll see.

Edit: He just fired one to cancel out Gohan's, they were pretty much equal. Thought all three were clobbered by Base Caulifla later on.

[dbzfan7]

Next week we may get an indisputable stance of where Gohan stands in relation to blue. Now that we have Goku and Vegeta both using that power, and more especially Vegeta who isn't nearly as tired as Goku. I mean a lot of people have their consent, but this may unite us all...mostly..

[precita]

I find it hard to believe all those weak robots combined would take both Blue Goku and Vegeta, and then Gohan, to bring them down...what.

We're expected to believe their power increases a million times over when separately they were all useless?

Were they? I can't remember.

I can only remember Base Gohan firing a Kamehameha at one of them which had no effect either because he made a barrier or fired a stronger blast. I can't remember but it did nothing.

It might not take all three of them, we'll see.

Edit: He just fired one to cancel out Gohan's, they were pretty much equal. Thought all three were clobbered by Base Caulifla later on.

SSJ2 Caulifa knocked them all down like they were nothing with one hit each in the episode she first challenges Goku. Then in another ep Vegeta beat up the big one off-screen and we just see him laying in the ground smashed up.