The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

Admittedly I forgot that he sustained a head injury as well as being cut up. My bad. Still, surely "he did this impossible-in-the-real-world thing therefore that's how his body works", which is what's at play here, is what's going on with Whis too.

Well, if I've heard right, Freeza is "conscious" when he's brought back in RF, and he's just a bunch of chunks of meat there.

[iop890]

Well, if I've heard right, Freeza is "conscious" when he's brought back in RF, and he's just a bunch of chunks of meat there.

Indeed, he's in a bunch of little 2 inch pieces from when Trunks chopped him up and he's not only alive but conscious. Eye(s) darting around, internal monologue, etc.

Actually makes me wonder why he was brought back like that to begin with. If someone's disintegrated then they get revived with a new body but with Freeza, Shenron's just like, "That one works fine, deal with it." Goku wasn't revived with a big hole through his chest in the Saiyan arc.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I get the impression that evil beings get treated poorly. Same goes for hell treatment, they get a special punishment. I assume Frieza wasn't being reincarnated for certain reasons.

But why Shenron revived Frieza in the first place? I would think Shenron knows who he is and what he's done. Some things I will never understand. He shouldn't be allowed to bring back beings like that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, if I've heard right, Freeza is "conscious" when he's brought back in RF, and he's just a bunch of chunks of meat there.

Indeed, he's in a bunch of little 2 inch pieces from when Trunks chopped him up and he's not only alive but conscious. Eye(s) darting around, internal monologue, etc.

Actually makes me wonder why he was brought back like that to begin with. If someone's disintegrated then they get revived with a new body but with Freeza, Shenron's just like, "That one works fine, deal with it." Goku wasn't revived with a big hole through his chest in the Saiyan arc.

Well, Krillin was said to be brought back in one piece as a "bonus" from Shenron. I'd guess Shenron just doesn't like Freeza very much.

Goku's body was restored by the time he reached Enma's. I'm guessing Kami did it.

[Sayo-chan]

I see nothing to suggest that Cell and Gohan weren't equal or having a negligible difference in power. He'd witnessed Gohan's power, he had the sparks, he was confident. Also, an attack meant to kill a pretty much lifeless Vegeta severely wounded Gohan.

That said, Cell wins easily. He's freaked out by suppressed Cell fighting Goku. I see no reason to believe it'd be anywhere near enough, especially seeing Majin Vegeta likely isn't too much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

SSJ Vegeta - 10
SSJ Goku - 15
SSJ Gohan - 18

Perfect Cell initial - 16
Perfect Cell full speed - 19
Perfect Cell full power - 21
Super Perfect Cell - 35-37

SSJ2 Vegeta - 20
SSJ2 Goku - 30
SSJ2 Gohan - 36

I do not think Perfect Cell (full speed) exceeds SSJ Gohan; Gohan was lack of will to fight and yet the Cell blows not affected much. The only time we saw Gohan use maximum effort was when he kicked Cell in the face.
I also think that you could increase the distance between Goku and Gohan. Goku could not touch Cell and Cell could not touch Gohan - big difference.

SSJ Goku 10
Cell (vs Goku) 11.2
Cell (vs gohan) 14
SSJ Gohan 15
Cell (full power) 45
Gohan SSJ2 75

Cell (zenkai) 72

Here's the problem with all that. Cell's blows did affect Gohan. He's bleeding, he has a nasty cut on his forehead. Cell causes Gohan's battle aura to come out numerous times, to which we see Gohan physically weary of his Death Beams. What's more is Cell's bear hug, which makes Gohan cry out in agony, so much that both Goku and Piccolo are about to jump in because they think he's about to die. Now with Goku, he does hurt Cell, we see him struggle and get pissed off a bit. Overall Goku gets battered, but he was able to touch him. Trunks on the other hand, could not touch Cell.

Both the Freeza thing and the Whis thing are equally as biologically screwy (since there's no indication Freeza's brain is wired any differently than ours, at least no more than Whis'). However, if I'm understanding correctly--and do correct me if I'm not, I may be misinterpreting you--you're now saying Toriyama would use the same kind of screwy logic back in the series' original run. Which is basically my point. That this kind of scientific ridiculousness is nothing new, whatever your stance on accepting or questioning it is.

Yes, but the output for what we know about Freeza makes sense. Being smart, being aware, being sapient makes sense. There's a difference between the process and the effect it leads to. That's the problem here. Notice how I don't have an issue with "how" Whis could do that, as opposed to the concept itself? I don't recall when Toriyama said that about Piccolo, but it didn't affect the story. If someone wants to cite me on the enzymes thing about Piccolo, it'd be much appreciated. I do not consider Toriyama to be a very thoughtful writer, otherwise there wouldn't be as many plot holes as there are. So you're not misunderstanding me. But again, certain things have logical consistency to them. Anatomy is always going to look as it does. If an animator draws muscles wrong, the muscles are wrong, it's an error. It doesn't just become accepted as, "yeah that still somehow makes sense in-universe".

Admittedly I forgot that he sustained a head injury as well as being cut up. My bad. Still, surely "he did this impossible-in-the-real-world thing therefore that's how his body works", which is what's at play here, is what's going on with Whis too.

How is it possible? The first part of it is simply unimpressive and redundant, based on the speeds they move, if he's not speaking about reflexes and being reactionary, then what? Limbs moving independently is vague. A mind of their own as we know, wouldn't be unique to him or practical. Either the concept itself makes no sense because it's not meant to be explored, or it's something unimpressive, like putting his body on autopilot, which wouldn't really accomplish much of anything as far as battle prowess goes.

Admittedly I forgot that he sustained a head injury as well as being cut up. My bad. Still, surely "he did this impossible-in-the-real-world thing therefore that's how his body works", which is what's at play here, is what's going on with Whis too.

Well, if I've heard right, Freeza is "conscious" when he's brought back in RF, and he's just a bunch of chunks of meat there.

Right, I'm glad you brought this up. The concept of Freeza being alive is something that makes sense. It's neither impressive nor unimpressive, and it's certainly not redundant in any way. The process he's alive? Magic. He also has a soul. That's what fills in the gaps. My problem is the end result, not the suspension of disbelief in between, which is subsequently shattered because of the offhand rudimentary concept.

Well, if I've heard right, Freeza is "conscious" when he's brought back in RF, and he's just a bunch of chunks of meat there.

Indeed, he's in a bunch of little 2 inch pieces from when Trunks chopped him up and he's not only alive but conscious. Eye(s) darting around, internal monologue, etc.

Actually makes me wonder why he was brought back like that to begin with. If someone's disintegrated then they get revived with a new body but with Freeza, Shenron's just like, "That one works fine, deal with it." Goku wasn't revived with a big hole through his chest in the Saiyan arc.

Well, Krillin was said to be brought back in one piece as a "bonus" from Shenron. I'd guess Shenron just doesn't like Freeza very much.

Goku's body was restored by the time he reached Enma's. I'm guessing Kami did it.

What about all the people Boo killed coming back? Or the ones Cell absorbed? It seems like something that's just inconsistent.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Here's the problem with all that. Cell's blows did affect Gohan. He's bleeding, he has a nasty cut on his forehead. Cell causes Gohan's battle aura to come out numerous times, to which we see Gohan physically weary of his Death Beams. What's more is Cell's bear hug, which makes Gohan cry out in agony, so much that both Goku and Piccolo are about to jump in because they think he's about to die.

Cell's first few blows he landed did not damage Gohan. Goku specifically points out that Gohan's Ki hadn't dropped one bit. The blood + cut is cosmetic damage. That's like saying Vegeta "damaged" Android #18 with his blast even though she tanked it (but Vegeta still did cosmetic damage to her.)

[Sayo-chan]

Here's the problem with all that. Cell's blows did affect Gohan. He's bleeding, he has a nasty cut on his forehead. Cell causes Gohan's battle aura to come out numerous times, to which we see Gohan physically weary of his Death Beams. What's more is Cell's bear hug, which makes Gohan cry out in agony, so much that both Goku and Piccolo are about to jump in because they think he's about to die.

Cell's first few blows he landed did not damage Gohan. Goku specifically points out that Gohan's Ki hadn't dropped one bit. The blood + cut is cosmetic damage. That's like saying Vegeta "damaged" Android #18 with his blast even though she tanked it (but Vegeta still did cosmetic damage to her.)

I don't see how being hurled through a ton of rock and coming out bloody isn't being damaged. Damage is defined as physical harm. Gohan was physically harmed and therefore damaged. 18 was ruffled and hardly effected. Just because there wasn't a significant drop in his ki, doesn't mean he was unscathed. Also, do you have the panel+translation for context?

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Here's the problem with all that. Cell's blows did affect Gohan. He's bleeding, he has a nasty cut on his forehead. Cell causes Gohan's battle aura to come out numerous times, to which we see Gohan physically weary of his Death Beams. What's more is Cell's bear hug, which makes Gohan cry out in agony, so much that both Goku and Piccolo are about to jump in because they think he's about to die.

Cell's first few blows he landed did not damage Gohan. Goku specifically points out that Gohan's Ki hadn't dropped one bit. The blood + cut is cosmetic damage. That's like saying Vegeta "damaged" Android #18 with his blast even though she tanked it (but Vegeta still did cosmetic damage to her.)

I don't see how being hurled through a ton of rock and coming out bloody isn't being damaged. Damage is defined as physical harm. Gohan was physically harmed and therefore damaged. 18 was ruffled and hardly effected. Just because there wasn't a significant drop in his ki, doesn't mean he was unscathed. Also, do you have the panel+translation for context?

Gohan came out with a smirk on his face, like he was just getting started. I wouldn't call that being damaged. It wasn't until he was bear hugged when damage became apparent.

[Sayo-chan]

Gohan came out with a smirk on his face, like he was just getting started. I wouldn't call that being damaged. It wasn't until he was bear hugged when damage became apparent.

This is not a smirk:

[h0kuten]

Here's the problem with all that. Cell's blows did affect Gohan. He's bleeding, he has a nasty cut on his forehead. Cell causes Gohan's battle aura to come out numerous times, to which we see Gohan physically weary of his Death Beams. What's more is Cell's bear hug, which makes Gohan cry out in agony, so much that both Goku and Piccolo are about to jump in because they think he's about to die.

Cell's first few blows he landed did not damage Gohan. Goku specifically points out that Gohan's Ki hadn't dropped one bit. The blood + cut is cosmetic damage. That's like saying Vegeta "damaged" Android #18 with his blast even though she tanked it (but Vegeta still did cosmetic damage to her.)

I don't see how being hurled through a ton of rock and coming out bloody isn't being damaged. Damage is defined as physical harm. Gohan was physically harmed and therefore damaged. 18 was ruffled and hardly effected. Just because there wasn't a significant drop in his ki, doesn't mean he was unscathed. Also, do you have the panel+translation for context?

Good point!

[Hellspawn28]

I hear the Sailor Moon universe is very powerful is par on with current DB characters. How far would Beerus, Golden Freeza, SSjGSSj Goku, SSjGSSj Vegeta and Whis make into Sailor Moon. Could they solo it or would they lose?

[Sayo-chan]

I hear the Sailor Moon universe is very powerful is par on with current DB characters. How far would Beerus, Golden Freeza, SSjGSSj Goku, SSjGSSj Vegeta and Whis make into Sailor Moon. Could they solo it or would they lose?

Depends whether you go with the anime or manga. Usagi has street durability in the anime. Sailor Saturn's a planet buster regardless and Pluto can stop time. Vegetto in the Boo saga solos Tuxedo Mask and both the inner and outer sailor senshi. I really have to review the manga again, because I remember Moon being a lot stronger than she is in the anime.

[ahill1]

Majin Vegeta SSJ2 and Goku SSJ2 vs Good Buu.

[Lord Beerus]

Majin Vegeta SSJ2 and Goku SSJ2 vs Good Buu.

Good Boo still stomps. Good Buu was able to hold his own, albeit briefly, against Kid Boo who was SSJ3 tier strong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Actually makes me wonder why he was brought back like that to begin with. If someone's disintegrated then they get revived with a new body but with Freeza, Shenron's just like, "That one works fine, deal with it." Goku wasn't revived with a big hole through his chest in the Saiyan arc.

I think it's because Freeza being sliced in pieces wasn't fatal to him. If Kami hadn't restored Tenshinhan's body when he died in Saiyan arc, he would have been revived without an arm. If Kami hadn't restored Goku's body when he died in Saiyan arc, the hole in his chest would close, since this is what healed him.

The manga supports the idea that when someone is brought back to life, he doesn't get restored in perfect shape and only his fatal injuries are healed. In Boo arc, Vegeta was brought back, but his energy wasn't restored.

Well, Krillin was said to be brought back in one piece as a "bonus" from Shenron. I'd guess Shenron just doesn't like Freeza very much.

Wasn't just his clothes the bonus?

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, Krillin was said to be brought back in one piece as a "bonus" from Shenron. I'd guess Shenron just doesn't like Freeza very much.

Wasn't just his clothes the bonus?

Maybe, I dunno. The point was that Shenron has leeway to go about granting the wish however he chooses.

[Doctor.]

Wasn't just his clothes the bonus?

His body too.

[Sayo-chan]

I'm curious. Who in the Dragon World would Cobra stack up against? Here's some of his feats:
-can bench-press 500 kg. With his right, non-cybernetic arm.
-he states can run 100 meters in 5 seconds flat, consistently up to 3km+. That's about 3 miles in 4 minutes, although it's implied he may be faster based on his tone and as well as the fact he was able to run the 3km in less than a minute.
-his Psycho-Gun in his arm can curve to where he thinks it (presumably before he fires), going through everything aside from polarized crystal.
-he crashed into a pool of water at 500 km/h from a height that was stated normal humans would've exploded into pieces, surviving and taking little damage.

[LonelyShadow]

Unless Goku goes Super Saiyan 3, fuses with Vegeta via the dance or the two of them produce the biggest f*ck off Big Bang & Kamehameha combo attack they can, I don't see them killing Fat Buu as SSJ2s.

Of course Goku shouldn't be able to use his SSJ3 in this case scenario, the only reason why I'm putting this fight is because I wanted to see if somebody though something close to what I picture, in Broly's Second coming, Gohan, Goten and apparently Goku managed to defeat Broly (a character stronger than SSJ2 Gohan) with a combination of two (or three) Kamehamehas, with all that being said, I was wondering, if the 3 saiyans united their power in a single blast in order to defeat the "Fat happy guy", could that be enough to finish him off? Although, Buu's regeneration ability could turn the tables and the saiyans will be dammed.

I think an x2 powerup would've been enough for Vegeta to kill regular Perfect Cell, but SPC? I doubt it, especially since he'd have an x2 boost of his own on top of his own vastly superior base strength in comparison to Vegeta's.

I guess that I was a little overhyped with Vegeta during the Cell Saga, after watching a couple of episodes I determined that yes, he was very weak compared to Goku even after training 2 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber (Toriyama! What even is life anymore?!), I agree with you, as a SSJ2 he could beat Perfect Cell, but Zenkai Cell is too much.

I consider Super Janemba & Super Buu even in-strength so if Buu doesn't ever use absorption I think they'd both kill one another. However, if Buu pulls the old absorption trick on him like he did to Gotenks & Gohan he'd win for sure.

Maybe it's because of Super Buu's underwhelming fighting style, but I always felt like Goku as a SSJ3 could survive as much time as he did with Super Janemba, if he was more gifted with his combat skills I'm pretty sure he would destroy Goku a little faster than Janemba, other than that, Buu's regeneration and his absorption would lead him to victory.

1 - Piccolo said that it didn't matter if they were the 3 Saiyans against fat buu; It's not a question of numbers; Fat Buu would win.

2-Super Perfect Cell crushes Vegeta; SPC was very close to the power of Gohan and Gohan was far superior to Vegeta.

3-Super Buu would win easily; Goku SSJ3 could still put a fight with Super Janemba.

1: If it's just brute force, I agree, they lose, but if they manage to use some strategies they have a chance to win (combined attacks, giving Goku time to charge his Genkidama, etc.)

2: As I said above, I was a little overhyped with Vegeta when I wrote that (probably because of TFS' new episode I dunno), nobody take that out of context!

3: I agree that Super Buu wins, but I have to disagree with your statement that he does it easily, I'm fairly sure that Goku could hold his own against Buu for a short period of time (just like with Janemba), but only because Super Buu is, arguably, the dumbest of the Buu's. Also Toei's boost for Goku is an issue.

I see nothing to suggest that Cell and Gohan weren't equal or having a negligible difference in power. He'd witnessed Gohan's power, he had the sparks, he was confident. Also, an attack meant to kill a pretty much lifeless Vegeta severely wounded Gohan.

That said, Cell wins easily. He's freaked out by suppressed Cell fighting Goku. I see no reason to believe it'd be anywhere near enough, especially seeing Majin Vegeta likely isn't too much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

Hey there! Well, well, this is interesting.

The reason why I think that SPC isn't really that strong compared to SSJ2 Gohan, it's because of the beam struggle, before that Gohan was a little damaged by Cell when he was trying to fight him as a FPSSJ, after that, he got hit by the "Kill Super Vegeta Laser" while he was protecting Vegeta and lost one of his arms for the rest of the fight, much like Goku when he fought Super Janemba, he lost his confidence to fight in that state. On the opposite side, Cell was not only fine, he was perfect ( ), he received a big Zenkai due the fact that he used a technique that was meant to kill him, before that, he was proven superior to Gohan as a FPSSJ, but I don't think that the Zenkai itself wasn't as big to make him x2 as strong.

When the struggle began Gohan did the Kamehameha with only one arm, he was probably weaker because of his arm, according to Goku, he was holding back due to the fact that he was worried about what could happen to the planet earth and probably he had a rock inside one of his shoes. With everything taking account he could probably be at almost 65% what his full power should be (if my statement of the rock is correct make that a 25%), after that, his power exploded and he defeated Cell while Vegeta distracted him with a tiny ki blast (remember, being off-guard in the DB universe is death), even with that being said, it didn't look like Cell was able to do something after that. And that's the reason why I believe he wasn't completely on the "SSJ2 tier", Cell isn't vastly weaker than Gohan, I'll say that at his Full Power he is 80%-ish SSJ2 Gohan.

Spoiler:

SSJ Vegeta - 10
SSJ Goku - 15
SSJ Gohan - 18

Perfect Cell initial - 16
Perfect Cell full speed - 19
Perfect Cell full power - 21
Super Perfect Cell - 35-37

SSJ2 Vegeta - 20
SSJ2 Goku - 30
SSJ2 Gohan - 36

Also, why is SSJ Gohan so strong compared to Goku? I though that the only reason why Goku was so confident about Gohan, i'ts because he knew of his transformation that goes beyond a normal Super Saiyan, he could be stronger, but not that much (at least in my opinion.) Anyways, thanks to everyone for giving your opinion about this little thingy!

Edit: mistook Broly "the legendary warrior" with the "Fat happy guy."

[Sayo-chan]

The reason why I think that SPC isn't really that strong compared to SSJ2 Gohan, it's because of the beam struggle, before that Gohan was a little damaged by Cell when he was trying to fight him as a FPSSJ, after that, he got hit by the "Kill Super Vegeta Laser" while he was protecting Vegeta and lost one of his arms for the rest of the fight, much like Goku when he fought Super Janemba, he lost his confidence to fight in that state. On the opposite side, Cell was not only fine, he was perfect ( ), he received a big Zenkai due the fact that he used a technique that was meant to kill him, before that, he was proven superior to Gohan as a FPSSJ, but I don't think that the Zenkai itself wasn't as big to make him x2 as strong.

When the struggle began Gohan did the Kamehameha with only one arm, he was probably weaker because of his arm, according to Goku, he was holding back due to the fact that he was worried about what could happen to the planet earth and probably he had a rock inside one of his shoes. With everything taking account he could probably be at almost 65% what his full power should be (if my statement of the rock is correct make that a 25%), after that, his power exploded and he defeated Cell while Vegeta distracted him with a tiny ki blast (remember, being off-guard in the DB universe is death), even with that being said, it didn't look like Cell was able to do something after that. And that's the reason why I believe he wasn't completely on the "SSJ2 tier", Cell isn't vastly weaker than Gohan, I'll say that at his Full Power he is 80%-ish SSJ2 Gohan.

Spoiler:

SSJ Vegeta - 10
SSJ Goku - 15
SSJ Gohan - 18

Perfect Cell initial - 16
Perfect Cell full speed - 19
Perfect Cell full power - 21
Super Perfect Cell - 35-37

SSJ2 Vegeta - 20
SSJ2 Goku - 30
SSJ2 Gohan - 36

Also, why is SSJ Gohan so strong compared to Goku? I though that the only reason why Goku was so confident about Gohan, i'ts because he knew of his transformation that goes beyond a normal Super Saiyan, he could be stronger, but not that much (at least in my opinion.) Anyways, thanks to everyone for giving your opinion about this little thingy!

Your opinion is not uncommon, however, I'm one of the few that doesn't share it. I'll do my best to articulate why:

In researching Cell's anatomy over the past year, I've studied the last couple of chapters of the Cell Games really well. Gohan is initially confident, so's Cell. Goku's pissed off he's still alive. Why he didn't feel him power up in the afterlife? Plot hole? I don't know. Maybe Cell went to Namek to relax for a few minutes and chat with the locals about how Freeza sucks. Anyway, Gohan's ki is cut in half, he states this. He says Cell's powered up more than he thought, implying that either he wasn't expecting the blast to do much damage (i.e. he underestimated him, thus perhaps voiding his initial confidence all together), he's truly terrified by cell powering up his Kamehameha or both. Goku motivates Gohan to retaliate, that he can win. Gohan believes in himself, until Cell pushes too hard. If you were Gohan and you're pushing, and by the looks of the panels he is, wouldn't you feel tapped out? Like it's over? Now if you were Goku, wouldn't you wanna motivate your kid to do the absolute best he can do, even if it's not enough? We don't know if Goku can feel Cell's ki through Kaio. Filler implies it's felt all the way to Namek, but that's neither here nor there (just an interesting factoid). My bet is he can't, so if we operate under the assumption that Goku doesn't know how strong Cell is. He also doesn't know to what extent Gohan's injured, beyond what he can see anyhow. All he knows that Gohan, when enraged freaks out and goes overboard, beyond what he has left sometimes. Vegeta touches on this during his fight with Dabra. If we analyze the struggle in the manga, Gohan's losing throughout the entire thing. He regains some confidence, but it's immediately shutdown. Why? Cell's overpowering him.

Panel of Gohan with confidence again:

I'm not saying it's like he had before, but it's clearly enough to think he has a chance.

So what happens next is when the beams hit:

Immediately, Gohan's feeling the pressure and struggling. Immediately, whereas Cell is pretty much laughing through his teeth, enjoying every second of it.

It doesn't last long at all, only a few pages, but in those few pages, Gohan loses. Cell enters the finishing blow just as Vegeta hits him. Gohan doesn't notice, so Goku has to alert him about it (the chance to kill Cell). He uses his remaining strength to shift the beam struggle in his favor and win. By the time Cell looks back, his body's already being destroyed. What could he do? Jumping out of the in-universe thinking for a second, if Gohan could win purely on his own power, then why did Toriyama give him two people to help? It seems to me like Gohan gave it what he could, realized that if he gave a push like with the one he killed Cell with, that it wouldn't be enough and it'd just exhaust his ki. In fact, this is supported by the fact Gohan drops into his base form after the fight, having to be carried by yamcha to God's love shack. Remember that if Cell wasn't distracted, it wouldn't disintegrate him so fast, which means he could use Goku's Instantaneous Movement to get out of the way, like Goku did with his Kamehameha. That's even assuming he couldn't push it back, which I'm betting he could.

I recall something, which may be anime only, about how Goku says Gohan's stronger than him. That's why I made him slightly stronger.