Things that grind your gears

[emi_b7]

I hate it how in the original DB Tenshinhan goes to study a technique that would kill him to defeat king Piccolo. While Goku just drinks some water. And the result is Tenshinhan's technique is useless and he loses against a henchman. While Goku proceeds to one-shot the henchman and subsequently defeats king Piccolo himself. And just one arc before both characters were on equal footing, with Tenshinhan beating Goku in the tournament.

It's even worse in the manga. There Tenshinhan doesn't even get to use the mafuba because the pot he was going to use to imprison Piccolo was broken and he only realized that AFTER going to fight him. He even talked trash to Piccolo and 2 panels later he grabs the pot and notices it is broken. Like, really, how dumb can you be, Tenshinhan?
I wish he could have beaten Drum or another random henchman.

[Snakeway Skywalker]

Some things that grind my gears:

1) Referring to Mr. Satan as "Hercule"
2) When I'm browsing DB franchise merch online and it's all listed under a "Dragon Ball Z" category

[DragonBallKing]

Some things that grind my gears:

1) Referring to Mr. Satan as "Hercule"
2) When I'm browsing DB franchise merch online and it's all listed under a "Dragon Ball Z" category

Yeah, it always annoys me how dragon ball is treated more like an optional prequel to Z rather than the first half of Goku's story

[DiegoBrando]

I hate it how in the original DB Tenshinhan goes to study a technique that would kill him to defeat king Piccolo. While Goku just drinks some water. And the result is Tenshinhan's technique is useless and he loses against a henchman. While Goku proceeds to one-shot the henchman and subsequently defeats king Piccolo himself. And just one arc before both characters were on equal footing, with Tenshinhan beating Goku in the tournament.

It's even worse in the manga. There Tenshinhan doesn't even get to use the mafuba because the pot he was going to use to imprison Piccolo was broken and he only realized that AFTER going to fight him. He even talked trash to Piccolo and 2 panels later he grabs the pot and notices it is broken. Like, really, how dumb can you be, Tenshinhan?
I wish he could have beaten Drum or another random henchman.

Wow, never read the manga so I didn't even know that. That's just terrible.

[ABED]

I'm ambivalent about it. I would've liked to have seen Tenshinhan defeat one of Piccolo's henchmen, but at the same time I liked what Toriyama did by having him kill Drum with ease.

[sintzu]

Even Roshi didn't do anything against Piccolo, he didn't even lay a hand on him. That and what little Tien did is why I prefer the way Z used its characters compared to DB cause the later is mostly about Goku.

[rereboy]

I hate it how in the original DB Tenshinhan goes to study a technique that would kill him to defeat king Piccolo. While Goku just drinks some water. And the result is Tenshinhan's technique is useless and he loses against a henchman. While Goku proceeds to one-shot the henchman and subsequently defeats king Piccolo himself. And just one arc before both characters were on equal footing, with Tenshinhan beating Goku in the tournament.

It's even worse in the manga. There Tenshinhan doesn't even get to use the mafuba because the pot he was going to use to imprison Piccolo was broken and he only realized that AFTER going to fight him. He even talked trash to Piccolo and 2 panels later he grabs the pot and notices it is broken. Like, really, how dumb can you be, Tenshinhan?
I wish he could have beaten Drum or another random henchman.

It's perfectly realistic for something like that to happen. I'm certain that everyone has made plenty of mistakes and hasn't noticed plenty of things that would not have been hard to notice, even when it has important consequences. Yet, when something like that happens in a book, series, or whatever, people get surprised at how "stupid" the character is... Furthermore, that's certainly better than Tenshinhan somehow surviving using the Mafuba without a stated explanation.

[ABED]

Even Roshi didn't do anything against Piccolo, he didn't even lay a hand on him. That and what little Tien did is why I prefer the way Z used its characters compared to DB cause the later is mostly about Goku.

That's a leap. DBZ does as little with its characters besides Goku as DB does. What do any of the Z fighters besides Goku do against Freeza? Nothing. They do no lasting damage, so most of what they do is stall. Tenshinhan might not have hurt Drum, but he is important to the story. He saves Goku's life. Tenshinhan's arc is more meaningful than most of the character arcs in Z.

Z is also about Goku. It's all Goku's story. It grinds my gears when people don't understand that.

[rereboy]

That's a leap. DBZ does as little with its characters besides Goku as DB does.

DBZ ends up being is worse. Up until the end of the Namek arc is about the same, but the Cell and Buu arcs tip the scales in that regard.

[ABED]

That's a leap. DBZ does as little with its characters besides Goku as DB does.

DBZ ends up being is worse. Up until the end of the Namek arc is about the same, but the Cell and Buu arcs tip the scales in that regard.

Agreed.

I don't think the value of a character, even in a fighting series, is solely dependent on how many bad guys they take down. DB and DBZ (I don't like having to make that distinction) use the supporting cast to varying degrees of success.

[sintzu]

What do any of the Z fighters besides Goku do against Freeza? Nothing.

Z is also about Goku. It's all Goku's story.

Piccolo did nothing against Raditz ? Krillin did nothing against the Saibamen ? Yajerobi, Gohan and Krillin did nothing against Vegeta ? Vegeta did nothing on Namek ? Piccolo did nothing against 2nd form Freeza ? Gohan did nothing against Freeza when he was attacking Piccolo and when he thought Goku was killed ?

I'm not saying it isn't, just that one part of the story did a better job at surrounding him with supporting characters.

[ABED]

Piccolo did nothing against Raditz ? Krillin did nothing against the Saibamen ? Yajerobi, Gohan and Krillin did nothing against Vegeta ? Vegeta did nothing on Namek ? Piccolo did nothing against 2nd form Freeza ? Gohan did nothing against Freeza when he was attacking Piccolo and when he thought Goku was killed ?

I'm not saying it isn't, just that one part of the story did a better job at surrounding him with supporting characters.

I've acknowledged they did important things in DBZ, but you take one part of the story and extrapolate the entire series. You dismissed Yajirobe's contributions to the Piccolo Daimao arc. I can play the same game as you and list the number of standout moments for other characters besides Goku, but it's all ultimately moot as it is ALL Dragon Ball. I find Muten Roshi's arc in DB to be very compelling as was Tenshinhan's. Yes, Tenshinhan's arc was short, but it's about quality, not quantity.

Gohan did absolutely nothing against Freeza. There was no lasting damage whatsoever.

[Kanassa]

Piccolo did nothing against Raditz ? Krillin did nothing against the Saibamen ? Yajerobi, Gohan and Krillin did nothing against Vegeta ? Vegeta did nothing on Namek ? Piccolo did nothing against 2nd form Freeza ? Gohan did nothing against Freeza when he was attacking Piccolo and when he thought Goku was killed ?

I'm not saying it isn't, just that one part of the story did a better job at surrounding him with supporting characters.

I've acknowledged they did important things in DBZ, but you take one part of the story and extrapolate the entire series. You dismissed Yajirobe's contributions to the Piccolo Daimao arc. I can play the same game as you and list the number of standout moments for other characters besides Goku, but it's all ultimately moot as it is ALL Dragon Ball. I find Muten Roshi's arc in DB to be very compelling as was Tenshinhan's. Yes, Tenshinhan's arc was short, but it's about quality, not quantity.

Gohan did absolutely nothing against Freeza. There was no lasting damage whatsoever.

I think in the Saiyan and Frieza bits you can at least make the argument that they did accomplish in stalling the villain so that not everybody died. Unlike the Cell and Buu saga

[ABED]

My judgment about whether someone contributed to the story is simply about moments. Even if it's to be nothing more than being taken out by the bad guy, if it provides a standout moment, especially an emotional moment, that's what matters to me. Ultimately what I'm looking for is a feeling. The Saiyan arc provided me with plenty and I liked how Kuririn and Gohan were used in the Freeza arc, but not neccessarily the Freeza fight, though not excluding it either.

[sintzu]

I'm not saying no one did anything important in DB or that no one had any good moments or arcs, just that with Z (or starting with the saiyan arc), Toriyama changed his writing style to focus more on the secondary characters.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

DBZ ends up being is worse. Up until the end of the Namek arc is about the same, but the Cell and Buu arcs tip the scales in that regard.

How does the Cell arc tip the scales the other way? Or am I confusing the discussion here about how the ensemble was put to use in DB/Z?

[rereboy]

DBZ ends up being is worse. Up until the end of the Namek arc is about the same, but the Cell and Buu arcs tip the scales in that regard.

How does the Cell arc tip the scales the other way? Or am I confusing the discussion here about how the ensemble was put to use in DB/Z?

The larger cast falls much more into irrelevance in the Cell and Buu arc. That tips the scale into their use being worse in DBZ than in DB (since up until the end of Namek it was about the same).

[Super_Divine_Genki]

The larger cast falls much more into irrelevance in the Cell and Buu arc. That tips the scale into their use being worse in DBZ than in DB (since up until the end of Namek it was about the same).

What the ensemble did throughout the Cell arc didn't mean anything to the narrative? I remember big Piccolo focus and some of the best character moments in the story happened during this time. Goku didn't impact the field directly until way towards the end, and then Gohan got the spotlight. Until then, everyone had contributed to varying degree.

I agree about the Boo arc.

[rereboy]

The larger cast falls much more into irrelevance in the Cell and Buu arc. That tips the scale into their use being worse in DBZ than in DB (since up until the end of Namek it was about the same).

What the ensemble did throughout the Cell arc didn't mean anything to the narrative? I remember big Piccolo focus and some of the best character moments in the story happened during this time. Goku didn't impact the field directly until way towards the end, and then Gohan got the spotlight. Until then, everyone had done some degree of heavy-lifting.

I agree about the Boo arc.

Falling much more into irrelevance is not the same as having no relevance at all.

In the Cell arc, hardly anyone, besides Piccolo and the saiyans, hardly mattered and Piccolo was the latest addition to the cast from DB, only actually becoming one of the guys in DBZ. And even him, by the end of the arc was just as irrelevant as the others.

In DB and even in the saiyan and Namek arc of DBZ, there's significantly greater relevance to the larger cast, even when it's not the entire cast, than in the Cell arc and Buu arc. In the Cell arc and Buu arc, the larger cast falls much more into irrelevance and the focus is on the saiyans, with only Piccolo managing to hold on for a bit at the start of the Cell arc.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Falling much more into irrelevance is not the same as having no relevance at all.

Relevance shouldn't be looked at under just a fighting lens. I know that DB is mostly about who's the strongest, but characters can play a role not just limited to that.

As far as characters losing relevance in Z, that started in the late Saiyajin arc, which seemed to act as a transitory arc to move into another direction in the story. However, their relevance is still felt because the whole point of going to Namek is to wish them back -- they stayed relevant without even being there! The Artificial Human/Cell arc brought all of these recurring characters back and gave them relevance, and not just in a fighting capacity. They had good use of screentime from beginning to conclusion as each contributed in some form.

The ensemble acted more as cameos throughout the Boo arc, by comparison. The Cell arc was their last stand before becoming semi-retired.