"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

quote

I might regret posting this knowing how weird people get in topics when it comes to race, but here it goes.

Firstly, I feel like I have to bring this up in regards to the "Toriyama never did racial caricatures thing." I think I found this image when I lurked this site a little while ago. Keep in mind that this is from Dr. Slump.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Secondly, Uub is not black. He is indian. That's why he dosen't share the same facial features as many of Toriyama's black characters. And don't try looking for characters of his that are black that don't have the same features because there are none like that. All of them look like this.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

However, I can say the bottom two are not TOO bad, but they are still obviously based off of blackface.

Thanks for posting this, Toriyama also based mr Popo off of one thousand and one nights and used the “darkie iconography” imagery as his base. Whether or not this was on purpose isn’t really relevant. The design is based off of racist imagery. I don’t have a particular problem with it but Toriyama definitely drew his black characters around this imagery

[Scsigs]

I might regret posting this knowing how weird people get in topics when it comes to race, but here it goes.

Firstly, I feel like I have to bring this up in regards to the "Toriyama never did racial caricatures thing." I think I found this image when I lurked this site a little while ago. Keep in mind that this is from Dr. Slump.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Secondly, Uub is not black. He is indian. That's why he dosen't share the same facial features as many of Toriyama's black characters. And don't try looking for characters of his that are black that don't have the same features because there are none like that. All of them look like this.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

However, I can say the bottom two are not TOO bad, but they are still obviously based off of blackface.

Ok, I wondered if it was sort of a stretch to compare Uub to the other black characters in the series, but if you remove the lips on the black characters, they'd look more like he does.
For that first image, I don't know the context of the scene that was a part of, but it appears that they're a part of a rural tribe kind of thing, due to how they look & how they talk. They DO appear to have lips, but it doesn't appear to be bad, since it's just a detail.
And, yeah, it does look like they're based on black face, but I'd still stand by Toriyama not being an intentional racist. He doesn't seem to use black characters often, so it'd be easy to tell him about the racial sensitivity of the designs.
However, we were mostly talking about Mr. Popo here. I still stand by my statement of Popo not being a stereotype. He's not even human & he has the clothes of a genie, he's just colored black & happens to have big lips. It's like I said about General Black, if it was HIM that guy had the issue with, I wouldn't be arguing, but Popo makes no sense to think he's supposed to be a black face caricature.

Thanks for posting this, Toriyama also based mr Popo off of one thousand and one nights and used the “darkie iconography” imagery as his base. Whether or not this was on purpose isn’t really relevant. The design is based off of racist imagery. I don’t have a particular problem with it but Toriyama definitely drew his black characters around this imagery.

I've been trying to say this. There's a clear distinction between the designs, and it wasn't done out of any malice or racism. The black characters have the bigger-than-average lips (which, why would cartoon characters need them anyways?), but that's because he really didn't have much other points of reference. I'm betting that if he knew, he would've altered the designs a bit to reflect that. He DID redesign Black for the Path to Power movie after all. Popo, as I've said, is based on genies, or djinns, which he also did for Majin Buu. It's all a matter of not knowing any better in some cases, & not intending things to be taken some other way in others.

[batistabus]

Do I think Toriyama has an interest in promoting a racist agenda? No.

Is Mr. Popo's face clearly based on blackface? Obviously.

Is Oob a black character? No, he's likely meant to be Southeast Asian or a Pacific Islander.

Is it one of the most absurd statements ever to assert that Japanese people are incapable of racism because not many black people live in Japan? Does this need an answer? Japan is one of the least diverse and most xenophobic modern nations.

Is the way Toriyama draws black earthling characters offensive? As a cartoonist, a black character's lips (drawn in black) would blend in with the rest of the face (shaded) if they weren't distinguished somehow. Assistant Black doesn't appear to embody traits of a racist stereotype, yet it was someone's decision to have him re-designed by Toriyama for the Path to Power film. This shows that someone on the Japanese side recognized that his design is somewhat problematic.

Mr. Popo isn't meant to be an earthling, and most children who grew up watching Dragon Ball would be unaware of the parallels to blackface. Regardless, a world exists outside of Dragon Ball. He's got pitch-black skin, bulging eyes, thick, red lips, and few teeth. It's not just his appearance, either. Mr. Popo's speech is very "simplistic" (to put it one way) in Japanese. Even though I like the character, it's totally understandable that American companies would want to censor the character in various ways. Just because you don't find his design offensive PERSONALLY, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to ignore the reasons that some people justifiably might.

[Scsigs]

Do I think Toriyama has an interest in promoting a racist agenda? No.

Is Mr. Popo's face clearly based on blackface? Obviously.

Is Oob a black character? No, he's likely meant to be Southeast Asian or a Pacific Islander.

Is it one of the most absurd statements ever to assert that Japanese people are incapable of racism because not many black people live in Japan? Does this need an answer? Japan is one of the least diverse and most xenophobic modern nations.

Is the way Toriyama draws black earthling characters offensive? As a cartoonist, a black character's lips (drawn in black) would blend in with the rest of the face (shaded) if they weren't distinguished somehow. Assistant Black doesn't appear to embody traits of a racist stereotype, yet it was someone's decision to have him re-designed by Toriyama for the Path to Power film. This shows that someone on the Japanese side recognized that his design is somewhat problematic.

Mr. Popo isn't meant to be an earthling, and most children who grew up watching Dragon Ball would be unaware of the parallels to blackface. Regardless, a world exists outside of Dragon Ball. He's got pitch-black skin, bulging eyes, thick, red lips, and few teeth. It's not just his appearance, either. Mr. Popo's speech is very "simplistic" (to put it one way) in Japanese. Even though I like the character, it's totally understandable that American companies would want to censor the character in various ways. Just because you don't find his design offensive PERSONALLY, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to ignore the reasons that some people justifiably might.

I mean, I'm not saying I don't get why someone would misconstrue Popo's design to that, but what I AM saying is that the design wasn't meant to be taken that way. And I said if it were General Black, I'd understand, but Popo's a different story.
And here's the thing. A black person's lips are the same color as anyone else's; pink, so I can understand the character design choice in animation. I don't think it's a good idea, but maybe it's the size of the lips that's the problem. If you actually look at Popo without his lips, the design's just creepy without them. Maybe smaller lips would be best, but I don't know.
It's all on this line of the characters not appearing to be stereotypes, but having the unfortunate implications of their character designs. I'm not saying that Japanese people are incapable of racism either, that's like saying black people can't be racist, I'm just that I don't think they'd portray black characters in animation like that if they knew better, but since most anime shows & movies rarely animate black people into the scenes, they don't normally focus on it. This is a bigger issue than I think can be discussed on this forum & is such a hot-button issue with a few sides, so I don't think we can accurately discuss this here without words being taken out of context, misconstrued, or whatever. Some people get offended, others don't, just like life.

[TheMikado]

Do I think Toriyama has an interest in promoting a racist agenda? No.

Is Mr. Popo's face clearly based on blackface? Obviously.

Is Oob a black character? No, he's likely meant to be Southeast Asian or a Pacific Islander.

Is it one of the most absurd statements ever to assert that Japanese people are incapable of racism because not many black people live in Japan? Does this need an answer? Japan is one of the least diverse and most xenophobic modern nations.

Is the way Toriyama draws black earthling characters offensive? As a cartoonist, a black character's lips (drawn in black) would blend in with the rest of the face (shaded) if they weren't distinguished somehow. Assistant Black doesn't appear to embody traits of a racist stereotype, yet it was someone's decision to have him re-designed by Toriyama for the Path to Power film. This shows that someone on the Japanese side recognized that his design is somewhat problematic.

Mr. Popo isn't meant to be an earthling, and most children who grew up watching Dragon Ball would be unaware of the parallels to blackface. Regardless, a world exists outside of Dragon Ball. He's got pitch-black skin, bulging eyes, thick, red lips, and few teeth. It's not just his appearance, either. Mr. Popo's speech is very "simplistic" (to put it one way) in Japanese. Even though I like the character, it's totally understandable that American companies would want to censor the character in various ways. Just because you don't find his design offensive PERSONALLY, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to ignore the reasons that some people justifiably might.

I mean, I'm not saying I don't get why someone would misconstrue Popo's design to that, but what I AM saying is that the design wasn't meant to be taken that way. And I said if it were General Black, I'd understand, but Popo's a different story.
And here's the thing. A black person's lips are the same color as anyone else's; pink, so I can understand the character design choice in animation. I don't think it's a good idea, but maybe it's the size of the lips that's the problem. If you actually look at Popo without his lips, the design's just creepy without them. Maybe smaller lips would be best, but I don't know.
It's all on this line of the characters not appearing to be stereotypes, but having the unfortunate implications of their character designs. I'm not saying that Japanese people are incapable of racism either, that's like saying black people can't be racist, I'm just that I don't think they'd portray black characters in animation like that if they knew better, but since most anime shows & movies rarely animate black people into the scenes, they don't normally focus on it. This is a bigger issue than I think can be discussed on this forum & is such a hot-button issue with a few sides, so I don't think we can accurately discuss this here without words being taken out of context, misconstrued, or whatever. Some people get offended, others don't, just like life.

Look no one is saying whether it’s intentionally offensive or not. But it is a very obvious portrayal of “darky iconography” just google image search to get an understanding of it. It’s obvious and by design as mr Popo is based on one thousand and one nights and the imagery therein.The intent is debatable and that’s not really for us to debate.

Spoiler due to potentially offensive imagery.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Vegeta_Sama]

Do you guys think the manga will go on even after the ToP? I know Toyo said he can't say anything, but this is just speculation. I hope he does, and that when the anime will hopefully be back they will follow the manga's more coherent and cohesive storyline.

[Hawk9211]

Do you guys think the manga will go on even after the ToP? I know Toyo said he can't say anything, but this is just speculation. I hope he does, and that when the anime will hopefully be back they will follow the manga's more coherent and cohesive storyline.

It could.Top is at most going to be 12 to 15 chapters and till that a new story could easily be thought.

[Ki Breaker]

Do you guys think the manga will go on even after the ToP? I know Toyo said he can't say anything, but this is just speculation. I hope he does, and that when the anime will hopefully be back they will follow the manga's more coherent and cohesive storyline.

Hopefully it does but there isn't really any concrete lead to go on yet..

Also, you might want to shorten your sig just a pinch, takes up a little too much space, put it in a spoiler tag perhaps?

[buutenks]

Nah i say the manga will go till the movie is released. Then proly early or mid next year we might get a new series.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Also, you might want to shorten your sig just a pinch, takes up a little too much space, put it in a spoiler tag perhaps?

Yeah, thanks, I'll do that.

[OLKv3]

Toyo kinda set up the whole "Jiren doesn't trust his team" plot point in the Jiren chapter. Belmod reveals that the Pride Troopers were originally a bunch of punks and thugs that united to deliver Justice. Sounds a whole lot like Jiren made them submit to his strength and rounded them up to be his tools

[batistabus]

Toyo kinda set up the whole "Jiren doesn't trust his team" plot point in the Jiren chapter. Belmod reveals that the Pride Troopers were originally a bunch of punks and thugs that united to deliver Justice. Sounds a whole lot like Jiren made them submit to his strength and rounded them up to be his tools

Let's not forget that Toppo is the leader of the Pride Troopers, not Jiren. In the chapter where they defeat the giant crab monster, the rest of the Troopers take time to comfort the civilians after they're saved. They all seem to have decent hearts, at least.

[Totamo]

quote

I might regret posting this knowing how weird people get in topics when it comes to race, but here it goes.

Firstly, I feel like I have to bring this up in regards to the "Toriyama never did racial caricatures thing." I think I found this image when I lurked this site a little while ago. Keep in mind that this is from Dr. Slump.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Secondly, Uub is not black. He is indian. That's why he dosen't share the same facial features as many of Toriyama's black characters. And don't try looking for characters of his that are black that don't have the same features because there are none like that. All of them look like this.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

However, I can say the bottom two are not TOO bad, but they are still obviously based off of blackface.

Does Dragon ball even have black characters though? There are no realife countries there.

But about Popo. I get why they had to do it. The Internet is a very sensitive place and that would have been their heads, but as black man myself, I find it hard to be offended by things that never really affected me. But thats just me and I don't speak for my entire race.

[Scsigs]

Does Dragon ball even have black characters though? There are no realife countries there.

But about Popo. I get why they had to do it. The Internet is a very sensitive place and that would have been their heads, but as black man myself, I find it hard to be offended by things that never really affected me. But thats just me and I don't speak for my entire race.

There's not really a lot of people who don't have light skin in DB. Only General Black & Uub, though there may be some small number of background characters that I'm not thinking of, but I doubt it. And that's what I'm talking about. I get not wanting blackface to be a thing again, but if it never affected you personally, why get that angry about something that's obviously deemed unacceptable by modern societal standards? People have moved on from such shitty things.
I also have the same feelings towards feeling guilty towards things that you had no part in that you couldn't have done anything about because you weren't there. There's a lot that people are feeling guilty for in this day & age that make no sense to feel guilty about, but people are anyways. I just don't get it.

[Totamo]

Does Dragon ball even have black characters though? There are no realife countries there.

But about Popo. I get why they had to do it. The Internet is a very sensitive place and that would have been their heads, but as black man myself, I find it hard to be offended by things that never really affected me. But thats just me and I don't speak for my entire race.

There's not really a lot of people who don't have light skin in DB. Only General Black & Uub, though there may be some small number of background characters that I'm not thinking of, but I doubt it. And that's what I'm talking about. I get not wanting blackface to be a thing again, but if it never affected you personally, why get that angry about something that's obviously deemed unacceptable by modern societal standards? People have moved on from such shitty things.
I also have the same feelings towards feeling guilty towards things that you had no part in that you couldn't have done anything about because you weren't there. There's a lot that people are feeling guilty for in this day & age that make no sense to feel guilty about, but people are anyways. I just don't get it.

I agree but like i said, I don't speak for my whole race and i get the anger. People have the right to be offended by what they feel is offensive and companies have to watch out or possibly lose money. The way things are these days, it be a pretty penny too.


Its why when I write my story, it won't be on Earth.

[Pantalones]

Does Dragon ball even have black characters though? There are no realife countries there.

Well, there wouldn't be any African characters, due to there not being an Africa. But when people talk about "black" characters they're usually talking about those with dark skin and maybe African-ish hair and facial features (or stereotypes of them.) Just like how there's characters who are Asian-looking (Chi-Chi) or intended to be white/European-looking (General Blue) or similar to Native Americans (Bora and Upa)... even though there's no Asia, Europe, or North/South America on the Earth that appears in Dragonball.

[mahakaishin1991]

Does Dragon ball even have black characters though? There are no realife countries there.

[Totamo]

Does Dragon ball even have black characters though? There are no realife countries there.

You...You just made my morning.

[mahakaishin1991]

You...You just made my morning.

My good deed for the day is done then

[FortuneSSJ]

Regardless if the manga ends in this arc or not, I hope they don't force Toyotaro to rush everything.
I couldn't care less about his BOG/Champa arcs, but one of the reasons why I often check the FT Trunks arc is because he took his time in making something that's worth to go back and read again.

As for Volume 5, it's scheduled to be released on 02 March so the Volume cover should be revealed soon.