Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[JazzMazz]

Well it's odd but time and time again we wonder how it will make sense based on the preview and then the episode itself either turns out differently or its just explained.

Goku pulled off a Kamehameha that was more powerful than Vegeta and Trunks' Galick Gun. Perhaps Vegeta will do some equivalent of that.

Yeah, that stupid event from the Black arc where Goku just wills a Kamehameha into being more powerful then Trunks + Vegeta, a Vegeta who's by default more powerful then him at this stage in the game. Without Kaio-Ken.

Yeah, the idiocy of the past doesn't excuse the incoming idiocy.

TBH, Goku's been able to pull power out of his ass since literally forever. Its almost become a core part of his character.

[ekrolo2]

Well it's odd but time and time again we wonder how it will make sense based on the preview and then the episode itself either turns out differently or its just explained.

Goku pulled off a Kamehameha that was more powerful than Vegeta and Trunks' Galick Gun. Perhaps Vegeta will do some equivalent of that.

Yeah, that stupid event from the Black arc where Goku just wills a Kamehameha into being more powerful then Trunks + Vegeta, a Vegeta who's by default more powerful then him at this stage in the game. Without Kaio-Ken.

Yeah, the idiocy of the past doesn't excuse the incoming idiocy.

TBH, Goku's been able to pull power out of his ass since literally forever. Its almost become a core part of his character.

Care to name an example from the pre-Super days? Cause I can't name a single time Goku just says "FULL POWER!" then gets massively more powerful without a transformation or technique to back it up.

[JazzMazz]

Yeah, that stupid event from the Black arc where Goku just wills a Kamehameha into being more powerful then Trunks + Vegeta, a Vegeta who's by default more powerful then him at this stage in the game. Without Kaio-Ken.

Yeah, the idiocy of the past doesn't excuse the incoming idiocy.

TBH, Goku's been able to pull power out of his ass since literally forever. Its almost become a core part of his character.

Care to name an example from the pre-Super days? Cause I can't name a single time Goku just says "FULL POWER!" then gets massively more powerful without a transformation or technique to back it up.

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

I'm confused by the exclusion of Transformations and Techniques, since in Super, those are still part of what allows him to push himself.

[ekrolo2]

TBH, Goku's been able to pull power out of his ass since literally forever. Its almost become a core part of his character.

Care to name an example from the pre-Super days? Cause I can't name a single time Goku just says "FULL POWER!" then gets massively more powerful without a transformation or technique to back it up.

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

So, in these instances Goku uses a technique or transformation to power himself up, just like I said they used to do it.

What Super does is if Goku, using KKX4 against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, for no other reason but determination, made X4 many times more powerful because he needs it to be without actually powering up his KK beyond X4.

[JazzMazz]

Care to name an example from the pre-Super days? Cause I can't name a single time Goku just says "FULL POWER!" then gets massively more powerful without a transformation or technique to back it up.

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

So, in these instances Goku uses a technique or transformation to power himself up, just like I said they used to do it.

What Super does is if Goku, using KKX4 against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, for no other reason but determination, made X4 many times more powerful because he needs it to be without actually powering up his KK beyond X4.

Yeah, but you could also say thats the case in Super. Though I don't like Goku winning his beam struggle singlehandedly for thematic reasons, I don't really have a problem with the scene itself because its literally Goku unleashing his power in a dangerous and stupid way that caused himself physical harm and then performing a final desperate assualt that ultimately only serves to make the Zamasu more powerful and really ticked off, before tapping out.

EDIT: I will say though, that it is a very shonen scene.

[ekrolo2]

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

So, in these instances Goku uses a technique or transformation to power himself up, just like I said they used to do it.

What Super does is if Goku, using KKX4 against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, for no other reason but determination, made X4 many times more powerful because he needs it to be without actually powering up his KK beyond X4.

Yeah, but you could also say thats the case in Super. Though I don't like Goku winning his beam struggle singlehandedly for thematic reasons, I don't really have a problem with the scene itself because its literally Goku unleashing his power in a dangerous and stupid way that caused himself physical harm and then performing a final desperate assualt that ultimately only serves to make the Zamasu more powerful and really ticked off, before tapping out.

I hate it because its pointlessly stupid: just use the fracking Kaio-Ken! We already know Goku has lots of problems using it with Blue so why not do the whole "Goku is going all out in this beam clash!" by having it not be retarded and using a pre-established thing he already has for the beam clash!

It's especially dumb because the scene after has him use fucking Kaio-Ken Blue anyway! So just use it from the get go!

[Sora Saiyan]

TBH, Goku's been able to pull power out of his ass since literally forever. Its almost become a core part of his character.

Care to name an example from the pre-Super days? Cause I can't name a single time Goku just says "FULL POWER!" then gets massively more powerful without a transformation or technique to back it up.

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

I'm confused by the exclusion of Transformations and Techniques, since in Super, those are still part of what allows him to push himself.

To be fair, if Vegeta decided to come back down to earth to fight Goku without becoming an Oozaru, Goku would have been screwed. He could just about handle x3, but x4 left him in a heap. KKX20 screwed him bad aswell, and in the end it just cemented that he was screwed against Freeza, also it made sense that he could use that considering with a power level of 90,000 he could handle KKx10.
SSJ was the legend that kept being brought up, we knew it was gonna show up somewhere, so that wasn’t too strange either.

[JazzMazz]

Care to name an example from the pre-Super days? Cause I can't name a single time Goku just says "FULL POWER!" then gets massively more powerful without a transformation or technique to back it up.

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

I'm confused by the exclusion of Transformations and Techniques, since in Super, those are still part of what allows him to push himself.

To be fair, if Vegeta decided to come back down to earth to fight Goku without becoming an Oozaru, Goku would have been screwed. He could just about handle x3, but x4 left him in a heap. KKX20 screwed him bad aswell, and in the end it just cemented that he was screwed against Freeza, also it made sense that he could use that considering with a power level of 90,000 he could handle KKx10.
SSJ was the legend that kept being brought up, we knew it was gonna show up somewhere, so that wasn’t too strange either.

Interestingly enough, even after using the Kaio Ken time 4, he could still use Kaio Ken sporatically, and considering Vegeta was in a weakened state, he may have had some kind of chance against him.
Hell even against Freeza, espicially in the anime, Goku still had some spirit to fight back against Freeza after using the KaioKen X20.

[ekrolo2]

Kaio-Ken times 4(He couldn't even properly handle 3, and even after using 4, he was still able to use his regular Kaio Ken, which was his physical limit, sporatically in his fight against Oozaru Vegeta) and the Kaio Ken time 20(Again, he literally doubled the peak of his power), hell even the first Super Saiyan form(I know this might be pushing it, but seriously what else is the purpose of the form), are the best examples I can think of this happening.

I will say though, that it is something that has become more ingrained in his character in Super.

I'm confused by the exclusion of Transformations and Techniques, since in Super, those are still part of what allows him to push himself.

To be fair, if Vegeta decided to come back down to earth to fight Goku without becoming an Oozaru, Goku would have been screwed. He could just about handle x3, but x4 left him in a heap. KKX20 screwed him bad aswell, and in the end it just cemented that he was screwed against Freeza, also it made sense that he could use that considering with a power level of 90,000 he could handle KKx10.
SSJ was the legend that kept being brought up, we knew it was gonna show up somewhere, so that wasn’t too strange either.

Interestingly enough, even after using the Kaio Ken time 4, he could still use Kaio Ken sporatically, and considering Vegeta was in a weakened state, he may have had some kind of chance against him.
Hell even against Freeza, espicially in the anime, Goku still had some spirit to fight back against Freeza after using the KaioKen X20.

Which misses the point I made earlier: Goku in those instances has a pre-established power up there that is by design adaptable to his needs, Blue Goku is not. It's a transformation with a fixed ceiling that suddenly becomes more powerful then Trunks AND Vegeta combined just because Goku needs it to be because the writing is shit.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The main episode doesn't have any real discrepancies.

Freeza getting a little pissed that Anilaza went after him for being weaker than SSG Goku was fun.

The NEP is what's REALLY crazy. I can tell it's getting people in a heap regardless of what anyone says.

[dbgtFO]

It's like Goku and Vegeta have been reverted to their Saiyan Arc standing where Vegeta has more raw power and Goku needs to use strenous levels of Kaioken to surpass him.
This continues onwards from Vegeta gaining god powers on his own, unlike Goku who needed help to reach that level.
If it really turns out to be the case that he is indeed just flat out stronger than Goku, then yeah it just continues onwards from Toei's favorable portrayal of him.
Not really that surprising that he wouldn't be insta stomped, when you take modern Toei Vegeta into account.

[Bullza]

If like someone mentioned, Vegeta combines his Super Saiyan Blue with his "Quake of Fury" rage boost then it could make sense.

They could make out what he did against Beerus was a foreshadowing of his version of Ultra Instinct.

In just this episode it took all five of them firing blasts to hold off Aniraza so if the next episode shows Vegeta alone putting pressure on the strongest character then I imagine there would be some reason for it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It could also just be that Vegeta managed to get in some clean, strong blows.

After all, the guy is the EMBODIMENT of "attack attack attack!".

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Vegeta is obviously getting a rage boost. At the beginning of the NEP, Blue Vegeta tries to attack Jiren from behind, and Jiren just casually punches him away like he's nothing.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, goku and Frieza are stated to be equals in the show by Whis and this is shown when they knocked each other out.

Frieza is stated to be equal to Goku in the show whom toei states is the strongest in U7. Very simple. I don't know what kaioken has to do with it but the show and toeis pamphlet paint a simple narrative.

The Goku that Frieza was stated to be equal to and shown to be on the same level as is stated by the creators of the show to be the strongest in U7. No amount of reaching will change that.

And the baseball match counts just like every other part of super. Goku pushed back vegetas full power and he wasn't weaker against merged zamasu. There's zero reason to believe that vegeta is magnitudes stronger. The status quo in the story is that they're equals in the same form and it's likely going to stay that way.

Goku and Freeza are declared equal in the show, yes.
But, we have clearly seen that this refers to Goku SSB and Golden Freeza. Kaioken is not included here (otherwise, Freeza would have beaten Goku SSB on EP 96).

The same goes for the declaration in Animedia. It is said that Goku is the strongest, so this obviously refers to the Kaioken (since that leaves him above Freeza and Vegeta). Because only with Blue, Freeza is on the same level as him (does not mean that Freeza is the stronger next to Goku).

And as I said Vegeta was not even included, his power was not measured

I think in the next episode Vegeta is going to be combining SSJB with the rage boost power he used against Beerus back in BoG. That's how he will be able to fight Jiren like how he was shown doing.

I believe only a rage boost would be disappointing. Vegeta needs to show something new, something that surpasses Blue to be able to face Jiren

That isn't coherent and you didn't address anything. The same company making the show released the pamphlet and in both of them the same thing is said. Goku and Frieza are equal.

You have no evidence whatsoever that Goku is only the strongest with kaioken. You keep saying this over and over again. Especially not when Goku already pushed back vegetas full power before the TOP arc.

Goku and Frieza stated to be equals in the show. Toeis own pamphlet reiterates what's in the show. Goku is the strongest and Frieza is on his level, therefore vegeta isn't stronger than Goku or Frieza. The statements coincide. Whatever version of goku that Frieza is comparable to, that Goku is the strongest.

[pacz360]

Freeza isn't stronger than vegeta get that shit outta here
Anyways this episode confirms that I was right 17 was infact blue level along with Gohan

[SuperDragoon]

Freeza isn't stronger than vegeta get that shit outta here
Anyways this episode confirms that I was right 17 was infact blue level along with Gohan

Um...No. We know for a fact that Pre-episode 121 Vegeta is weaker than Freeza. Get over it.

Anyways. If people are going to claim that SSB Vegeta>Kaioken x20 SSB Goku, they might as well go all the way and say SSB Vegeta is at least comparable to UI Goku. SSB Vegeta in the preview is pressuring Jiren more than the goddamn Spirit Bomb did and apparently thats too much for Vegeta fans? Eitfher go all the way or dont make them at all.

[Doctor.]

I expect some master class bullshit concerning Vegeta next episode. He's been so spectacularly out classed by Goku's basic KK Blue combo alone that him not getting one shotted out of the arena after a glare from Jiren should make for some real excellent writing when next we see Super.

And no, don't tell me "watch the episode!" cause I've got a 100+ episodes of Super that set a precedent or twenty thousand for how nonsense powers are.

To be fair, the Final Flash's multiplier (fully charged, at least) is fucking broken.

Vegeta and Trunks shat their pants when they sensed MSS Goku's 50% power (and they didn't even know it was 50%). Later, Cell rivals 100% Goku while suppressed and powers-up like twice while facing Gohan. And the Final Flash managed to tear off half of Cell's body and probably would have killed him if Vegeta didn't adjust the attack's trajectory to spare the Earth. This is an improved Final Flash several arcs later.

Though of course this doesn't excuse Vegeta being able to give Jiren trouble with normal punches and kicks.

[Noah]

And the Final Flash managed to tear off half of Cell's body and probably would have killed him if Vegeta didn't adjust the attack's trajectory to spare the Earth. This is an improved Final Flash several arcs later.

Is this just an assumption or was actually in the manga?

[Doctor.]

And the Final Flash managed to tear off half of Cell's body and probably would have killed him if Vegeta didn't adjust the attack's trajectory to spare the Earth. This is an improved Final Flash several arcs later.

Is this just an assumption or was actually in the manga?

Actually, I was wrong. He made it smaller.

[spoiler][/spoiler]