Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Rocketman]

So why does Goku need the Kaioken if a Super Kamehameha will match Vegeta?

[hleV]

Kaio-ken already amplifies Goku's power. I highly doubt Kamehameha's power amplification can be stacked on top of that.

[RandomGuy96]

So why does Goku need the Kaioken if a Super Kamehameha will match Vegeta?

He could just not have the energy for a Super Kamehameha AND Kaio-Ken. Perhaps it's just too stressful. Remember, firing what I think was a Super Kamehameha at Cell brought Goku to less than half power, and that was when he was in a form specifically designed not to consume a lot of energy. If he tried to use Super Kamehameha against Vegeta he can't stack kaio-ken on top of it due to the pure amount of energy usage. So it would only be:

8,000 x 2.22 = 17,7600

To Vegeta's

18 x 1.8 - 32,400

And that's assuming there's a beam struggle. Heck, it would fail to kill Vegeta whether he was firing a beam nor not. On top of that Vegeta can simply dodge it. Then Goku would be out of energy and completely helpless. Even just a normal Kaio-Ken x3 with no Kamehameha would be superior in every way.

He probably just used a normal Kamehameha after his power dropped from using Kaio-Ken x3 when he had not yet properly mastered it. Something like:

Vegeta- 18,000
--Galick Gun- 32,400

Goku: 8,000
--Kaioken x3: 24,000
---Drained- 21,000
----Kamehahema- 31,500
----x4 Kamehameha- 42,000

But again, this is assuming that his Kamehameha against Raditz actually was a Super Kamehameha rather than simply an outlier that should be ignored (like I said, if it was a normal Kamehameha every other energy attack in the series looks like crap). I'm just trying to find a plausible in-universe explanation for everything. I also give other attacks smaller multipliers. Piccolo's Light Grenade is only a x2 multiplier.

So what do you guys think? Does that work?

Kaio-ken already amplifies Goku's power. I highly doubt Kamehameha's power amplification can be stacked on top of that.

I respectfully disagree.

[Victorious]

for me

>>> means way stronger than you're opponent. Like tanking a kick to the head with hardly budging like Cell did to Vegeta.
>> quite a bit stronger, you're beat then mup but can maybe be hurt your opponent [monster zarbon vs Vegeta round 1, Recoome vs Vegeta, etc]
> stronger, but you're in for a fight
= equal battle powers

And i'm basing them on battle power/ki of course, like anything else matters in DBZ aside from a few extremely rare exceptions like the SSJG3.

[Victorious]

Ki amplification on the level of the Kamehameha at the beginnng of the series does indeed make later feats impossible and also unnecessarily bloats power levels. I find that the best way to do this is just to consider that one Super Kamehameha an outlier. It makes every blast before and after it look like shit. For example, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon takes 5 minutes for x3.5 amplification while the Kamehameha only took a few seconds for x2.22 amplification. Vegeta's Final Flash has to be charged a shitload to take out someone who is not even twice as strong as him. Yamachas's Kamehameha fails to one shot a Saibaman. Goku's Kamehameha at the tournament did shit to Piccolo. Gohan's first Kamehameha didn't disintegrate Cell. Et cetera.

Charged blasts are still obviously stronger than their user. But not THAT much stronger. I only give most blasts around x1.3 to x2 amplification. It works pretty well. The exceptions are the extremely long and impractical attacks like Final Flash.

Actually, now that I think about, how long DID Goku spend charging up that Kamehameha against Raditz? If you want you can assume that was a Super Kamehameha and therefore amplified more than most blasts in the series. You can make a "tier" of amplified blasts like:

Tier 1: Galick Gun, Kamehameha (x1.8, x1.5)

Tier 2: Super Kamehameha, Light Grenade (x.2.22, x2)

Tier 3: Final Flash, Special Beam Cannon (x3.5, x3)

...with each blast being stronger than the last, but also much more impractical due to energy drain and especially charge time.

The Kamehameha amplification abilities in the Cell arc are suggested to be very powerful IMO

First we know Cell who is stronger than Goku gets wrecked by Goku's warp KHH. And of course Cell and Gohan's final KHH when they were rivals the loser got vaporized.

I feel Full Power Perfect Cell's Kamehameha he shot down would have killed SSJ2 Kid Gohan too, if Vegeta can kill Cell with final Flash with a huge power gap deficiency see no reason why FP PC's Earth destorying KHH would not have killed Gohan had Gohan tried to take it on physically. Although of course Gohan responded back with his own KHH so that kinda proves my point IMO.

[RandomGuy96]

Ki amplification on the level of the Kamehameha at the beginnng of the series does indeed make later feats impossible and also unnecessarily bloats power levels. I find that the best way to do this is just to consider that one Super Kamehameha an outlier. It makes every blast before and after it look like shit. For example, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon takes 5 minutes for x3.5 amplification while the Kamehameha only took a few seconds for x2.22 amplification. Vegeta's Final Flash has to be charged a shitload to take out someone who is not even twice as strong as him. Yamachas's Kamehameha fails to one shot a Saibaman. Goku's Kamehameha at the tournament did shit to Piccolo. Gohan's first Kamehameha didn't disintegrate Cell. Et cetera.

Charged blasts are still obviously stronger than their user. But not THAT much stronger. I only give most blasts around x1.3 to x2 amplification. It works pretty well. The exceptions are the extremely long and impractical attacks like Final Flash.

Actually, now that I think about, how long DID Goku spend charging up that Kamehameha against Raditz? If you want you can assume that was a Super Kamehameha and therefore amplified more than most blasts in the series. You can make a "tier" of amplified blasts like:

Tier 1: Galick Gun, Kamehameha (x1.8, x1.5)

Tier 2: Super Kamehameha, Light Grenade (x.2.22, x2)

Tier 3: Final Flash, Special Beam Cannon (x3.5, x3)

...with each blast being stronger than the last, but also much more impractical due to energy drain and especially charge time.

The Kamehameha amplification abilities in the Cell arc are suggested to be very powerful IMO

First we know Cell who is stronger than Goku gets wrecked by Goku's warp KHH. And of course Cell and Gohan's final KHH when they were rivals the loser got vaporized.

I feel Full Power Perfect Cell's Kamehameha he shot down would have killed SSJ2 Kid Gohan too, if Vegeta can kill Cell with final Flash with a huge power gap deficiency see no reason why FP PC's Earth destorying KHH would not have killed Gohan had Gohan tried to take it on physically. Although of course Gohan responded back with his own KHH so that kinda proves my point IMO.

Yeah... and? Everything you just said is possible with those multipliers... from my conservative list on 103.

Goku- 68,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 3,600,000,000
---Instant Super Kamehameha- 8,000,000,000 (approx. x2.22)
--Post-Super Kamehameha- 1,440,000,000

Cell-
--vs Goku- 4,000,000,000
--Full Power- 6,000,000,000
---Kamehameha- 9,000,000,000- 13,320,000,000 (depends on if it was super or not. It was never confirmed that Gohan would die or even be that seriously injured if hit in the first place)
--Super Perfect- 8,000,000,000
---Solar Kamehameha- 18,000,000,000 (approx x2.22)

Gohan- 90,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 4,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 9,000,000,000
---Injured- 6,000,000,000
----Final Super Kamehameha- 14,000,000,000

Vegeta Grade II SS- 1,500,000,000
--Final Flash- 4,500,000,000

Initial Perfect Cell- 2,000,000,000

As for how I explain one of the most infamous tanking feats:

Piccolo: 380,000,000
--Exhausted- 320,000,000
---Light Grenade- 640,000,000

Imperfect Cell- 700,000,000

What do you guys think?

[Victorious]

Ki amplification on the level of the Kamehameha at the beginnng of the series does indeed make later feats impossible and also unnecessarily bloats power levels. I find that the best way to do this is just to consider that one Super Kamehameha an outlier. It makes every blast before and after it look like shit. For example, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon takes 5 minutes for x3.5 amplification while the Kamehameha only took a few seconds for x2.22 amplification. Vegeta's Final Flash has to be charged a shitload to take out someone who is not even twice as strong as him. Yamachas's Kamehameha fails to one shot a Saibaman. Goku's Kamehameha at the tournament did shit to Piccolo. Gohan's first Kamehameha didn't disintegrate Cell. Et cetera.

Charged blasts are still obviously stronger than their user. But not THAT much stronger. I only give most blasts around x1.3 to x2 amplification. It works pretty well. The exceptions are the extremely long and impractical attacks like Final Flash.

Actually, now that I think about, how long DID Goku spend charging up that Kamehameha against Raditz? If you want you can assume that was a Super Kamehameha and therefore amplified more than most blasts in the series. You can make a "tier" of amplified blasts like:

Tier 1: Galick Gun, Kamehameha (x1.8, x1.5)

Tier 2: Super Kamehameha, Light Grenade (x.2.22, x2)

Tier 3: Final Flash, Special Beam Cannon (x3.5, x3)

...with each blast being stronger than the last, but also much more impractical due to energy drain and especially charge time.

The Kamehameha amplification abilities in the Cell arc are suggested to be very powerful IMO

First we know Cell who is stronger than Goku gets wrecked by Goku's warp KHH. And of course Cell and Gohan's final KHH when they were rivals the loser got vaporized.

I feel Full Power Perfect Cell's Kamehameha he shot down would have killed SSJ2 Kid Gohan too, if Vegeta can kill Cell with final Flash with a huge power gap deficiency see no reason why FP PC's Earth destorying KHH would not have killed Gohan had Gohan tried to take it on physically. Although of course Gohan responded back with his own KHH so that kinda proves my point IMO.

Yeah... and? Everything you just said is possible with those multipliers... from my conservative list on 103.

Goku- 68,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 3,600,000,000
---Instant Super Kamehameha- 8,000,000,000 (approx. x2.22)
--Post-Super Kamehameha- 1,440,000,000

Cell-
--vs Goku- 4,000,000,000
--Full Power- 6,000,000,000
---Kamehameha- 9,000,000,000- 13,320,000,000 (depends on if it was super or not. It was never confirmed that Gohan would die or even be that seriously injured if hit in the first place)
--Super Perfect- 8,000,000,000
---Solar Kamehameha- 18,000,000,000 (approx x2.22)

Gohan- 90,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 4,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 9,000,000,000
---Injured- 6,000,000,000
----Final Super Kamehameha- 14,000,000,000

Vegeta Grade II SS- 1,500,000,000
--Final Flash- 4,500,000,000

Initial Perfect Cell- 2,000,000,000

As for how I explain one of the most infamous tanking feats:

Piccolo: 380,000,000
--Exhausted- 320,000,000
---Light Grenade- 640,000,000

Imperfect Cell- 700,000,000

What do you guys think?

The only person in the Cell arc who's Kamehameha amplifier should be 2.22x is Cell in his first form. Piccolo called that Kamehameha pathetic and said it wasn't good since Cell had Goku's blood sample from from the Saiyan arc.

THe KHH is vastly improved from the Saiyan to Cell arc.



As far as FP PC's KHH vs Kid Gohan, well if Vegeta can kill Warm Up Cell with a Final Flash see no reason why Cell wouldn't be able to kill Kid Gohan with his Super Kamehameha. The Gohan-Cell gap should be smaller anyway. Gohan could be twice as strong as Cell there and he should easily be killed by Cell's KHH IMO.

[Kaboom]

I've brought this up elsewhere, but when it comes to Cell's "pathetic" Kamehameha... why should that be equivalent to Goku's from the Saiyan arc? Goku was a straight-up master with the Kamehameha by then, and his power with the attack should be ANYTHING but "pathetic."

Just because Cell is programmed with the knowledge to perform the heroes' techniques, or because he had his DNA harvested at some point in time, doesn't mean he's as good at those techniques as the heroes are or even at all. Rather, perhaps he's wielding the attacks at relatively low levels, meaning they barely result in any power amplification. Like, if this were an RPG of some kind, Cell himself would be at a pretty high level, but all his techniques and attacks would be at "Rank 1." Those attacks might only become more effective as he gets closer to his perfect form.

Goku's Kamehameha: 2.5x
Stage 1 Cell's Kamehameha: 1.5x
Stage 2 Cell's Kamehameha: 2x
Perfect Cell's Kamehameha: 2.5x

Something like that?

[RandomGuy96]

I've brought this up elsewhere, but when it comes to Cell's "pathetic" Kamehameha... why should that be equivalent to Goku's from the Saiyan arc? Goku was a straight-up master with the Kamehameha by then, and his power with the attack should be ANYTHING but "pathetic."

Just because Cell is programmed with the knowledge to perform the heroes' techniques, or because he had his DNA harvested at some point in time, doesn't mean he's as good at those techniques as the heroes are or even at all. Rather, perhaps he's wielding the attacks at relatively low levels, meaning they barely result in any power amplification. Like, if this were an RPG of some kind, Cell himself would be at a pretty high level, but all his techniques and attacks would be at "Rank 1." Those attacks might only become more effective as he gets closer to his perfect form.

Goku's Kamehameha: 2.5x
Stage 1 Cell's Kamehameha: 1.5x
Stage 2 Cell's Kamehameha: 2x
Perfect Cell's Kamehameha: 2.5x

Something like that?

That makes sense, and makes my conservative multipliers work perfectly. Having EVERYONE's amplification being greater than x2.22 unnecessarily bloats everything and just makes no sense at all. Freeza would've never survived that Kamehameha. Cell would never have survived the first Kamehameha. Yamcha's Saibaman would've died. Piccolo Junior wouldn't have survived Goku's Super Kamehameha. Recoome wouldn't have survived Vegeta's psuedo-Final Flash.

Having x2.22 be considered very impressive (but energy consuming) amplification makes everything make more sense.

[Victorious]

I've brought this up elsewhere, but when it comes to Cell's "pathetic" Kamehameha... why should that be equivalent to Goku's from the Saiyan arc? Goku was a straight-up master with the Kamehameha by then, and his power with the attack should be ANYTHING but "pathetic."

Just because Cell is programmed with the knowledge to perform the heroes' techniques, or because he had his DNA harvested at some point in time, doesn't mean he's as good at those techniques as the heroes are or even at all. Rather, perhaps he's wielding the attacks at relatively low levels, meaning they barely result in any power amplification. Like, if this were an RPG of some kind, Cell himself would be at a pretty high level, but all his techniques and attacks would be at "Rank 1." Those attacks might only become more effective as he gets closer to his perfect form.

Goku's Kamehameha: 2.5x
Stage 1 Cell's Kamehameha: 1.5x
Stage 2 Cell's Kamehameha: 2x
Perfect Cell's Kamehameha: 2.5x

Something like that?

Because Piccolo said the reason why it's not good is because Cell's blood sample on Goku is taken from the Saiyan arc

And it's only Pathetic in relative terms, it's pathetic to the kind of amplification Goku can do now, 2.22x is pathetic next to 3.5-4x or so you know. It did seem like it would hurt Piccolo since he dodged it, so the pathetic part can only be in reference to it's amplification abilities IMO.

I liked your theory that Kaioken took away it's amplification abilities, that you can amplify your ki on top of a super amplifying technique like Kaioken, and that's why Vegeta and Freeza were not fried.

[Kaboom]

Because Piccolo said the reason why it's not good is because Cell's blood sample on Goku is taken from the Saiyan arc.

Ah. Good point. I guess in the end, if one also believes that ki can be used for defense as well as offense, amplification doesn't matter as much as it would otherwise.

I liked your theory that Kaioken took away it's amplification abilities, that you can amplify your ki on top of a super amplifying technique like Kaioken, and that's why Vegeta and Freeza were not fried.

Thanks, but I can't remember if I came up with it or not. I do like going by creative ways to explain that sort of stuff.

[rereboy]

Ah. Good point. I guess in the end, if one also believes that ki can be used for defense as well as offense, amplification doesn't matter as much as it would otherwise.

Its proven to be used for defense when Vegeta in the Namek arc suppressed his power on purpose and Krillin was able to hurt him severely (to produce a zenkai).

In my opinion, if a fighter can amplify his power with Ki manipulation, he can also amplify his defense with Ki manipulation. So, unless a fighter's ki manipulation is better than his adversary, that advantage is basically nullified and its only a true advantage agaisnt someone who can't do the same.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I feel it's best to try to explain the large amplifications with the logic that ki defense amplification is pretty high itself.

[dbzfan7]

Ah. Good point. I guess in the end, if one also believes that ki can be used for defense as well as offense, amplification doesn't matter as much as it would otherwise.

Its proven to be used for defense when Vegeta in the Namek arc suppressed his power on purpose and Krillin was able to hurt him severely (to produce a zenkai).

In my opinion, if a fighter can amplify his power with Ki manipulation, he can also amplify his defense with Ki manipulation. So, unless a fighter's ki manipulation is better than his adversary, that advantage is basically nullified and its only a true advantage agaisnt someone who can't do the same.

Makes it so you don't have to care about amplifications. I like it.

[RandomGuy96]

Amplifying your defenses with ki is something that has never been implied to exist, though. If you assume characters can do that, why even bother making power levels in the first place? Every feat ever can apparently be explained by "he was amplifying his defenses". Semi-Perfect Cell tanks 16's punch? "Semi-Perfect Cell is actually 700,000,001 to 16's 700,000,000 but in that moment he was amplifying his defenses with ki".

[Kamiccolo9]

Amplifying your defenses with ki is something that has never been implied to exist, though. If you assume characters can do that, why even bother making power levels in the first place? Every feat ever can apparently be explained by "he was amplifying his defenses". Semi-Perfect Cell tanks 16's punch? "Semi-Perfect Cell is actually 700,000,001 to 16's 700,000,000 but in that moment he was amplifying his defenses with ki".

Well, there is Goku blocking Trunk's sword with his finger. His finger even has a little aura around it. And here's Vegeta saying that he'll lower his battle power so that Krillin can hurt him

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.1-2
Vegeta: “When we Saiyans revive from the brink of death, our strength increases! So go ahead and half-kill me! There’s no effect if I try to kill myself! You do it! Quickly! Freeza is about to perform his final transformation!”
Kuririn: “I-I could half-kill you with my power…”
Vegeta: “Don’t worry…I’ll lower my battle power to its limit…! It’s fortunate that the Namekian brat who can instantly heal people is here…”

[Rocketman]

And Freeza blocks Goku's Kaioken x20 Kamehameha despite being equal to KKx20 Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Like I said, Goku was injured when he fired it and Freeza has shown that he can bring out a brief burst of 70% power. That's assuming that Kamehameha had a x2.22 multiplier in the first place (like I said, I assumed x1.5) or any multiplier at all.

Well, there is Goku blocking Trunk's sword with his finger. His finger even has a little aura around it. And here's Vegeta saying that he'll lower his battle power so that Krillin can hurt him

Suppressing your power level isn't the same thing as amplifying your defenses.

[Rocketman]

Noticed you didn't say anything about Goku blocking Trunks.

[Kaboom]

Amplifying your defenses with ki is something that has never been implied to exist, though.

Well, we know of at least one way to do it:

Barrier [bariyaa]
First Appears Chapter 367
Category Ki Manipulation
User(s) Artificial Human No. 17, Cell, Vegetto

A technique where they use ki to create a barrier around themselves, guarding against their opponents' attacks. It can guard against ki attacks and also physical attacks such as missiles. What's more, Vegetto used it to successfully avoid being absorbed by Majin Buu (evil). However, in order to use a barrier, it is necessary to constantly emit ki. To cancel out the physical and ki attacks of their opponents, they must emit ki at least twice that of their opponents. It's natural that No. 17, with his infinite energy generator, was able to use this technique, and since perfect-form Cell took over that infinite energy generator he could use it as well. You can also understand how Vegetto, said to be the best in the universe in everything from ki control to ki strength, would be able to use it too. However, it seems that this technique cannot guard against attacks from those with ki far stronger than their own.

If you assume characters can do that, why even bother making power levels in the first place?

Because power levels are just rough starting points. Even with the ability to put all of one's ki into defending, it's going to be much more difficult or even impossible if someone's too much stronger than you. The ability to manipulate and use one's ki effectively is just as much a factor as how much of it you have to begin with.