Unpopular DB opinions

[RandomGuy96]

Puar beat Oolong as well, by turning into a fly swatter and hitting him. He lost to The Mummy, but that was filler interference.

Yamcha beat Oolong too in DB Movie 4 actually. Just kicked him away. Poor Oolong.

Oolong, really? I don't even remember him being in Movie 4. Anyway, that's like saying that Super Buu has more victories than any other character, because he 'beat' all of the Earthlings.

I'm kind of wondering what we should even count as fights. To use Buu as an example: should him killing 18, Krillin, Yamcha, and co count as a fight? Or one-shotting Tenshinhan? Or beating up SS2 Goku and Vegeta in filler? Or pounding SS3 Goku in filler? Cause they're all poop to him and may as well not even be there. What about Perfect Cell kicking Krillin? Or Freeza just casually blowing him up? Or Vegeta killing Pui Pui?

[Kid Buu]

Overall I would count Puar beating Oolong as a victory because the story at the time hyped them out to be rivals.

I wouldn't count Yamcha kicking Oolong away in DB Movie 4, and of course Oolong was in it. It was a recreation of the original arc + RRA arc.

[Ninja Murasaki]

Be able to maintain the will power to accept offers of sex? It's not that hard.

Sex isn't exactly easy, particularly when you're a nervous wreck around women.

Unless date rape is involved not really.

As rereboy noted, an insecure and nervous guy would be more likely to cheat precisely because they're bad with women, and would be more suspectible to seduction and flattery.

We've seen how Yamcha reacts to being seduced, he fainted on one occasion and practically fainted on the other.

What translation are you using? Viz? Because if Saiga is correct, Puar was expecting Yamcha to kill them, which implies... things.

Anime subs and a variety of fan translations.

Draw (and Goku was weakened)

They were fighting on equal ground before Goku ran out of energy. At the end of the fight, Goku was panting and barely standing, it was clear he wouldn't have been able to maintain ground against Yamcha's second attack.

Goku weakened them first

No, he hadn't, infact the two had just clobbered a helpess Goku as Bulma was held hostage.

not really a fight (was Chi Chi even superhuman by this point?)

Chi-Chi shoots a laser at Yamcha, he jumps over it, and knocks her out.

Funny how you count Chi-Chi as superhuman when she kills a T-rex, then a helpless kid when Yamcha beats her.

just helped (Puar did more work than him)

Yamcha grabbed the tail as Goku was on a rampage. If anything, Puar helped.

don't really count as fights (unless Krillin vs Pintar counts).

You were just counting Chi-chi beating a nameless T-rex, yet when Yamcha beats nameless characters it doesn't count?

Who did he beat in the movies?

From what I remember in the DB movies, a bunch of soldiers, a demon sidekick to the main villain, and some tournament fighters.

He fought Goku to a draw legitimately and beat Cymbal alone.

Yamcha was on equal grounds with Goku as well.

He also basically defeated Oozaru Vegeta alone, which is impressive as hell.

While it was impressive, Vegeta had also been distracted by Krillin and Gohan.

Yamcha had to attack a weakened and starving Goku to get a draw (he was stomped in the rematch)

Except he and Goku were about on equal grounds, and when Goku got hungry, he became an easy target for Yamcha until Bulma accidently saved him.

Yamcha retreated in the rematch because his vanity was damaged, so it essentially another draw.

and had help against Invisible Man.

Yamcha was beating the invisible man until he got help. And again, Yamcha was won battles on his own.

Several Fights in Dragon Ball had help from other people or trickery, doesn't make it any less legit. Krillin beating Chiaotzu via creating an opening by stumping him with math problems doesn't make any less of an accomplishment.

Neither surpassed Roshi according to the guides.

In the guide for the beginning of DBZ, Chaotzu is listed as weaker then Roshi.

That counts as fodder. And Yamcha beat her afterwards with only one blow.

Not really, Yamcha or Roshi hitting Goku hurts more then a headshot for example.

My mistake, he had a name in the dub. But the point is the Vampire still had a distinct appearance and identity. The Saibamen were mass produced 'faceless' henchmen who the other characters effortlessly one-shotted.

And the vampire was easily defeated by a pair of non-fighters, while a single saibamen could basically solo DragonBall's villain cast.

Has Puar ever actually lost? She helped beat Oozaru Goku and the Vampire Dude.

Puar only fought twice I think. But I suppose you only count matches with one person.

[Kid Buu]

Nappa considered Yamcha's fight a draw, so will I. That means Yamcha is the only one in that arc not to win a fight (except Chaotzu, but hes always a bigger failure), but it also means Yamcha is the only one not to have an official loss!

[RandomGuy96]

Overall I would count Puar beating Oolong as a victory because the story at the time hyped them out to be rivals.

I wouldn't count Yamcha kicking Oolong away in DB Movie 4, and of course Oolong was in it. It was a recreation of the original arc + RRA arc.

Oooooh, I thought you were talking about Lord Slug.

I'm talking about what counts as a fight in general. Pui Pui vs Vegeta is usually counted, even I counted that as a win for Vegeta. Yet the power difference there was likely far more massive than the difference in the case of Super Buu vs Android 18, so why don't we count that?

Sex isn't exactly easy, particularly when you're a nervous wreck around women.

Doesn't make it impossible.

We've seen how Yamcha reacts to being seduced, he fainted on one occasion and practically fainted on the other.

People change.

Anime subs and a variety of fan translations.

That explains a lot.

They were fighting on equal ground before Goku ran out of energy. At the end of the fight, Goku was panting and barely standing, it was clear he wouldn't have been able to maintain ground against Yamcha's second attack.

Did Yamcha beat him? No? He ran away like a little girl? Then it's a draw, not a win. And again, Goku was weakened. When he was well fed later, he stomped Yamcha.

Yamcha retreated in the rematch because his vanity was damaged, so it essentially another draw.

If you want to count him running away as a draw, fine, but neither of these were a win for him.

No, he hadn't, infact the two had just clobbered a helpess Goku as Bulma was held hostage.

I'm just going off Herms' strength-palooza here, I barley remember that arc.

Yamcha was beating the invisible man until he got help. And again, Yamcha was won battles on his own.

Didn't win this one on his own.

Several Fights in Dragon Ball had help from other people or trickery, doesn't make it any less legit. Krillin beating Chiaotzu via creating an opening by stumping him with math problems doesn't make any less of an accomplishment.

Krillin pulled that off alone.

In the guide for the beginning of DBZ, Chaotzu is listed as weaker then Roshi.

Chiaotzu has an official BoZ power level? Not that I doubt him being weaker than Roshi, I was just unaware of this and thought you were saying Chiaotzu and Yajirobe in general never surpassed Roshi. Not that it matters, with his psychic powers he'd still roflstomp Yamcha.

Not really, Yamcha or Roshi hitting Goku hurts more then a headshot for example.

A head shot from a small pistol causes Goku a lot of pain. A missile can kill him. He can't take a shotgun blast.

While it was impressive, Vegeta had also been distracted by Krillin and Gohan.

He wasn't expecting Yajirobe, so Gohan and Krillin don't really factor in. Still a better record than Yamcha. Who has a worse record than him? As far as I know he's won only one major fight and drew two others, while helping with another. He lost every single other major fight.

You were just counting Chi-chi beating a nameless T-rex, yet when Yamcha beats nameless characters it doesn't count?

No, it's because he beats weaksauce characters. Chi Chi killing a T-rex in an arc where a shotgun blast is still lethal is impressive.

Yamcha grabbed the tail as Goku was on a rampage. If anything, Puar helped

Puar's the one who actually cut it.

Chi-Chi shoots a laser at Yamcha, he jumps over it, and knocks her out.

Funny how you count Chi-Chi as superhuman when she kills a T-rex, then a helpless kid when Yamcha beats her.

When did I say she was superhuman?

And the vampire was easily defeated by a pair of non-fighters, while a single saibamen could basically solo DragonBall's villain cast.

So? The power creep doesn't really factor in here. Yamcha was stronger than the Saibaman and he still failed miserably against it. Everyone else easily beat them. The Saibamen were faceless generic mooks with no personality or unique attributes. What other character died a death to such a pathetic enemy?

Puar only fought twice I think. But I suppose you only count matches with one person.

Then he's never lost.

Nappa considered Yamcha's fight a draw, so will I. That means Yamcha is the only one in that arc not to win a fight (except Chaotzu, but hes always a bigger failure), but it also means Yamcha is the only one not to have an official loss!

I guess technically he would never have lost a fight in that arc, despite dying to a faceless mook. That makes the Saiyan arc ironically the arc where he has the best record (except filler!Namek arc).

[Kid Buu]

I'm talking about what counts as a fight in general. Pui Pui vs Vegeta is usually counted, even I counted that as a win for Vegeta. Yet the power difference there was likely far more massive than the difference in the case of Super Buu vs Android 18, so why don't we count that?

Doesn't Super Buu just kill them off screen in the manga? That's probably why.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm talking about what counts as a fight in general. Pui Pui vs Vegeta is usually counted, even I counted that as a win for Vegeta. Yet the power difference there was likely far more massive than the difference in the case of Super Buu vs Android 18, so why don't we count that?

Doesn't Super Buu just kill them off screen in the manga? That's probably why.

I guess (filler shows it), but I don't think it being off-screen really negates it happening. For example, Tambourine killed Krillin off-screen. That's still counted as a Krillin loss. Though I guess Vegeta killing Pui Pui at least gets more focus. Is there a minimum power gap for something to even be considered a fight? Would Buu and Cell casually dispatching Tenshinhan and Krillin respectively with single kicks count?

[Kid Buu]

Hmm, I suppose because Tamoburine killing Krillin advances the plot. Vegeta killing Pui Pui isn't as noteworthy as that, but it does mean they that beat Stage 1 out of 3 in the Spaceship. Super Buu killing the Z Senshi at that point was basically as important as killing a random human, so that's probably why.

Although Buu killing Tenshinhan does count, otherwise Tenshinhan would have fused with Goku!

[Ninja Murasaki]

Doesn't make it impossible.

It practically does actually.

People change.

Toriyama said in that interview, Yamcha had the same phobia around women.

That explains a lot.

Doesn't them any less legit.

Viz changed a few things in the translation.

Did Yamcha beat him? No? He ran away like a little girl?

See, you're mudslinging again with words like that.

If you want to count him running away as a draw, fine, but neither of these were a win for him.

Either, way Yajirobe's record against Goku was no better then him. Both their fights were interrupted.

Another thing to compare is Yamcha gave Goku more trouble then beginning Krillin who was instantly pinned to the ground in combat against Goku.

Didn't win this one on his own.

I already gave examples of fights he won on his own.

Again his opponent had help as well.

Krillin pulled that off alone.

Doesn't change the fact that he used trickery and innate advantages to his advantage.

It seems like when Krillin does its ok for you, but when Yamcha uses trickery, his victory isn't legit.

Not that it matters, with his psychic powers he'd still roflstomp Yamcha.

Citation needed.

Yamcha is consistently listed and described as more powerful then Chaotzu and Yajirobe.

A head shot from a small pistol causes Goku a lot of pain. A missile can kill him. He can't take a shotgun blast.

Actually he's survived missiles.

So? The power creep doesn't really factor in here. Yamcha was stronger than the Saibaman and he still failed miserably against it. Everyone else easily beat them. The Saibamen were faceless generic mooks with no personality or unique attributes. What other character died a death to such a pathetic enemy?

No one else knew of the Saibamen's self destruct until they saw it, they were just as surprised as Yamcha.

I'd argue totally losing to the vampire was more worse then a dying saibaman taking a hero with them.

Then he's never lost.

But oh, Puar was assisted by Yamcha and Upa respectively, guess those victories don't count.

[RandomGuy96]

That's a good point. Doesn't really seem fair, though. I mean in a way, Buu killing the rest of the Z fighters actually advances the plot more than Vegeta killing Pui Pui, because Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan could have literally just ignored Pui Pui and walked right on through at that point. It only lasted longer than three seconds because Vegeta was playing.

What about when someone repeatedly beats the same character several times? Freeza does this a lot. Stomping Krillin in his second form then casually killing him in his final form, and stomping Piccolo in his third form and stomping him again in his final form. Do those count?

It practically does actually.

No, it really doesn't.

Toriyama said in that interview, Yamcha had the same phobia around women.

He also said that Yamcha cheated on Bulma. And that wasn't related to a woman phobia, but rather his exact reaction in a certain situation.

Doesn't them any less legit.

Viz changed a few things in the translation.

Fan translations are worthless.

See, you're mudslinging again with words like that.

No, just stating what happened. Him looking like a sissy there is played for laughs.

Either, way Yajirobe's record against Goku was no better then him. Both their fights were interrupted.

Another thing to compare is Yamcha gave Goku more trouble then beginning Krillin who was instantly pinned to the ground in combat against Goku.

Actually, it was far better, because he fairly fought Goku to a draw when both of them were fresh (if anything, Yajirobe had the handicap), whereas Yamcha could only achieve the same result with a starving and weakened Goku.

I already gave examples of fights he won on his own.

Again his opponent had help as well.

Who? The Rabbit Gang and some Budokai fodder? I don't really count those as fights, any more than I count Super Buu killing Yamcha as a fight.

Doesn't change the fact that he used trickery and innate advantages to his advantage.

Why is that a bad thing?

It seems like when Krillin does its ok for you, but when Yamcha uses trickery, his victory isn't legit.

When did Yamcha ever use trickery? And no, stumbling upon someone when they're starving isn't trickery.

Citation needed.

Chiaotzu could hold down 23rd Budokai Goku with his powers. 23rd Budokai Goku is stronger than Yamcha. Chiaotzu back then was much, much weaker than Chiaotzu now. Chiaotzu could merely stop Yamcha's heart.

Yamcha is consistently listed and described as more powerful then Chaotzu and Yajirobe.

Being more powerful than Chiaotzu (which btw, he isn't confirmed to be by the Buu Saga, to my knowledge) doesn't mean he could actually beat him.

Actually he's survived missiles.

In the Pilaf arc?

No one else knew of the Saibamen's self destruct until they saw it, they were just as surprised as Yamcha.

I'd argue totally losing to the vampire was more worse then a dying saibaman taking a hero with them.

No one knew about the blood sucking either. And Yamcha wouldn't have died to the Saibaman if he wasn't A. arrogant as hell B. so weak and/or unskilled that his Kamehameha didn't take the Saibaman down. Krillin blew three of them to pieces with generic ki blasts right after this.

But oh, Puar was assisted by Yamcha and Upa respectively, guess those victories don't count.

He's got two assists, one victory, and zero losses. By contrast, Yamcha has one victory, one assist, two draws, and a shit ton of losses.

[Kid Buu]

That whole Freeza fight is just one big clusterfuck in a narrative battle, so its hard to work that one out.

Actually, unpopular opinion, but that fight really annoys me. It goes like this.

1.) Vegeta Vs First Form Freeza
2.) Gohan & Kuririn Vs Second Form Freeza
3.) Piccolo Vs Second Form Freeza
4.) Piccolo & Gohan Vs Third Form Freeza
5.) Vegeta Vs Final Form Freeza.

It's literally one big circle! The instant Freeza announces he has two more forms, its like just get to the main fight already.

Also, you guys keep forgetting Puar beat Oolong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What I get is that even though Yamcha is nervous around women, he still likes to go with other women, and sometimes he succeeds, since he is very attractive. He is a good friend and a good guy, even though in the past he was a stealing & killing people. He is a powerful, skilled, and talented martial artist, but he is also very unlucky, so unlucky that the only fights he won were against normal humans, and only one serious fight, but required help from 3 others, while his opponent required help from only 1 person.

[Attitudefan]

I'll just put this here cause this is what I agree with 100%

He also happens to be the first rival-turned-friend though, so if the later instances didn't outshine his, then it wouldn't work anyway. And considering Goku is Goku after all, saying it like Yamcha lost to a child is a little unfair too. An entire military would later lose to that same child, and I don't see anybody giving the Red Ribbon crap for it. A Martial Arts master like Roshi, who taught Goku practically everything he knew at the time, almost lost to him too. He only won by the fluke of having longer legs, and I don't see too many people acting like Roshi's a failure.

...


Vegeta had ample warning about how strong the Androids were, and despite how easily the #19 went down, none of the others were particularly cocky about 17 and 18 when they came up. Only Vegeta completely ignored everything they had been told and made a total fool of himself. And Vegeta had already learned how to sense power levels by the time Cell came into the picture, and he still made some really stupid decisions there. To be fair, he didn't have the same number of years of practice at sensing power as say, Kuririn, who actually picked up on how strong Cell was and that Trunks was holding back...but by the time Boo came into the picture he should have. And still he puts everything important on the back burner just so he can have his one last fight with Goku. He may make up for it with his actions after the fact, but the fact remains that Vegeta has made a ton more worse decisions than Yamcha ever did, and gets far less crap for them in general. This bewilders me to no end.

You are right that at least he gets his comeuppance from important characters though, and I'll admit it was stupid of Yamcha to just jump in at the Saibamen like that. But just for one mistake and the guy is suddenly blacklisted as a lame character?

Gyt Kaliba you are the man.

[Kid Buu]

Well, Yamcha is more useful than Vegeta in the Buu arc. Vegeta gets Buu released and does plenty of other dumb shit, Yamcha and Bulma find the DB's and resurrects Kabito with it - who heals Kaioshin - who takes everyone to Kaios planet and thats where most of the asspulls come from.

So Yamcha has ONE accomplishment in the Buu arc, Vegeta is in the negatives.

[RandomGuy96]

That whole Freeza fight is just one big clusterfuck in a narrative battle, so its hard to work that one out.

Actually, unpopular opinion, but that fight really annoys me. It goes like this.

1.) Vegeta Vs First Form Freeza
2.) Gohan & Kuririn Vs Second Form Freeza
3.) Piccolo Vs Second Form Freeza
4.) Piccolo & Gohan Vs Third Form Freeza
5.) Vegeta Vs Final Form Freeza.

It's literally one big circle! The instant Freeza announces he has two more forms, its like just get to the main fight already.

Also, you guys keep forgetting Puar beat Oolong.

Yeah, I hate that whole battle too. It gets better when Goku arrives and Freeza finally dispenses with the forms, but it drags on even then. The Genki Dama in particular felt like filler.

All this talk about win/loss records made me realize that my favorite character, Majin Buu, never technically lost a fight! Well, except Good/Mister Buu, but he doesn't really count, since he's not part of Pure Buu like the others, and only lost to other Buus.

Fat Buu vs- Dabra, SS2 Gohan, Kaioshin, SS2 Vegeta, base Gotenks, SS3 Goku (five victories, one draw)

Super Buu vs- 18/Krillin/Yamcha, base/SS Gotenks, SS3 Gotenks (and Piccolo?), Ultimate Gohan, Tenshinhan, SS3 Goku (filler), SS2 Goku/SS2 Vegeta (filler), SS Vegetto, SS2 Goku/SS2 Vegeta (filler again) (nine victories, one sort of inconclusive skirmish)

Pure Buu vs- West Kaioshin, North Kaioshin, South Kaioshin, Dai Kaioshin, East Kaioshin (all filler, but still referenced in the manga), SS3 Goku, SS2 Vegeta, Mr. Buu (eight victories, zero losses)

[Kid Buu]

Fat Buu also beat up Base Gotenks, by the way.

[RandomGuy96]

Added.

[Kid Buu]

Well, in response to Gyt Kaliba, Yamcha is more useful than Vegeta in the Buu arc. Doing nothing is better than actively helping the villain succeed.

Does killing Babidi count as a win?

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think so. Not any more than Freeza blowing up Dende.

[Kid Buu]

I thought he just Death Beamed Dende?