Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The gr]

Anilaza not a mindless monster? First time i'm hearing this. He wanted to destroy the arena and eat his opponents. Nothing indicates he was holding back when hitting 18.

As whis mentioned,he want to eat #18 because u7 keep saving the people that almost get ring out,wasn't vegeta figthing this thing in super saiyan,he must have hold back some attacks to not kill his opponents.

[TheDipDap1234]

Anilaza not a mindless monster? First time i'm hearing this. He wanted to destroy the arena and eat his opponents. Nothing indicates he was holding back when hitting 18.

As whis mentioned,he want to eat #18 because u7 keep saving the people that almost get ring out,wasn't vegeta figthing this thing in super saiyan,he must have hold back some attacks to not kill his opponents.

But eating would count as killing, so Universe 3 would have gotten disqualified. Aniraza punched 18, SSJ Vegeta, SSJG Goku, a suppressed Ultimate Gohan and a suppressed 17 several times and nobody seemed to be more damaged and hurt than the other one.

[The gr]

But eating would count as killing, so Universe 3 would have gotten disqualified. Aniraza punched 18, SSJ Vegeta, SSJG Goku, a suppressed Ultimate Gohan and a suppressed 17 several times and nobody seemed to be more damaged and hurt than the other one.

U3 wouldn't be that stupid if they know the cause of that why pull that stunt.By that logic Base Goku is around the same level of Blue Vegeta because he survived Hit attacks or Ribrianne is above Anilaza because she broke #17 barrier .I wouldn't put #18 that high tbh,i put her above base Goku or maybe low SS1.

[SupremeKai25]

Thought I'd take the opportunity to post what I think is the latest power scale.

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Vados
Whis

Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Quitela
Champa

Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Kefla
Ultimate Gohan
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Controlled Kale
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Android 17
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Piccolo
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu

Monna
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Android 18
Giant Super Ribrianne
Super Ribrianne
Jimeze
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Lavender
Basil
Ribrianne
Tagoma

Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Shisami
Jaco

Personally, Corrupted Fused Zamasu should be higher. In the anime (and this seems to be the basis of your list), C. Fused Zamasu fought on-par with SSB Vegito and even overwhelmed him for a time. You could clearly see that SSB Vegito was no longer playing around, especially after his Final Kamehameha did virtually nothing to his immortal opponent. And i also think that C. Fused Zamasu is stronger than Spirit Sword Trunks, because keep in mind that Zamasu had been damaged greatly by constant fighting with powerful opponents, so he was no longer in his prime and was probably exhausted (since his immortality was flawed). And C. Fused Zamasu could have kept fighting even after Trunks sliced him in half, as part of his body (the Future Zamasu's half) was still completely immortal.

Also, in that list of yours, where would you put Infinite Zamasu, who took over the Universe?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is the same sort of situation as when the newly trained Tagoma took on the Z-Warriors in Resurrection of F.

He was skilled and powerful enough to tag all of them at once. Period.

No other real tells about power levels. Now, when he takes on each of them alone and overpowers them, THEN it shows his power level.

[Bullza]

In the ToP he mostly came off as being base level to me since he didn't seem to do any better against Saonel and Pirina than base Gohan did. I wouldn't be surprised if they just simply retconned his strenght. They did something similar to Ribrianne who fought evenly with SSJ Vegeta but later on was losing to Base Vegeta.

Unless at first Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was about as strong as Piccolo and then the training that he did meant later that Base Gohan was now as strong as Piccolo?

Seems farfetched he'd get over 100 times stronger so quickly though.

Personally, Corrupted Fused Zamasu should be higher. In the anime (and this seems to be the basis of your list), C. Fused Zamasu fought on-par with SSB Vegito and even overwhelmed him for a time. You could clearly see that SSB Vegito was no longer playing around, especially after his Final Kamehameha did virtually nothing to his immortal opponent. And i also think that C. Fused Zamasu is stronger than Spirit Sword Trunks, because keep in mind that Zamasu had been damaged greatly by constant fighting with powerful opponents, so he was no longer in his prime and was probably exhausted (since his immortality was flawed). And C. Fused Zamasu could have kept fighting even after Trunks sliced him in half, as part of his body (the Future Zamasu's half) was still completely immortal.

Also, in that list of yours, where would you put Infinite Zamasu, who took over the Universe?

I'm not sure how much higher I could put that Zamasu because I wouldn't have said he was as strong as a God of Destruction seeing as they hyped up Jiren as being that guy. Unless Super Saiyan Blue Vegito wasn't that level either, I'm only going by the manga for that.

Infinite Zamasu still probably shouldn't be as strong as Jiren if Vegeta said the suppressed Jiren was the strongest he'd ever come across.

[dragon boss z]

This is the same sort of situation as when the newly trained Tagoma took on the Z-Warriors in Resurrection of F.

He was skilled and powerful enough to tag all of them at once. Period.

No other real tells about power levels. Now, when he takes on each of them alone and overpowers them, THEN it shows his power level.

Still probably the most nonsensical power related feats in the series.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is the same sort of situation as when the newly trained Tagoma took on the Z-Warriors in Resurrection of F.

He was skilled and powerful enough to tag all of them at once. Period.

No other real tells about power levels. Now, when he takes on each of them alone and overpowers them, THEN it shows his power level.

Still probably the most nonsensical power related feats in the series.

Which is why I try not to boil it down to JUST power levels. Doing this frustrates and enrages folks at the lack of an absolutely rock solid consistency in the "rules".

That's also not to say that power levels should just be thrown out either, because they ARE still important.

The Tournament of Power really highlights this mentality. Sure, stronger fighters tend to do better. But it's now not ALWAYS about a higher power level trumping a lower one, case closed and buried. There are added layers, an importance placed on the manner in which fighters conduct themselves in battle. I think the fight between Jiren and Vegeta highlights this train of thought perfectly.

When Jiren decides to just rely on his power level, Vegeta can't do anything, as expected. But he also can't do as much back. When he gets engaged in the flow of the fight, he has a much better chance of seriously doing damage, but he also can't just take a hit or twenty because he can't focus on juggling both styles at once, and so when Vegeta reads his patterns, he can land some solid blows.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So who do you guys think is stronger. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta after his Pride Boost or Aniraza?

I actually don't think Vegeta got stronger. He just used a super powered up Final Flash.

Similar to what Goku did against Zamasu.

Also, shouldn't Quitela be stronger than Beerus?

It was stated that vegeta awakened a power within him when jiren taunted him, so he did get a "pride" boost.

Also, beerus stronger than quitela, quitela stronger than beerus, its all the same. The manga kinda proved that the gods are almost identical to each other in terms of power, and none can one shot the other. The thing that seperates them is skill. Beerus and belmod were the ones that impressed me the most (beerus unmastered UI, Belmod encapsulating all gods with his psychic powers)

[Miracles]

Goku took more than both Vegeta and Hit against Jiren nd still had "more than enough strength and stamina" to use Genki backed by KKX20 Blue. Vegeta and Hit were done/damaged by an attack that didn't even hurt Goku.

[Rally 07]

Thought I'd take the opportunity to post what I think is the latest power scale.

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Vados
Whis

Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Quitela
Champa

Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Kefla
Ultimate Gohan
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Controlled Kale
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Android 17
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Piccolo
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu

Monna
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Android 18
Giant Super Ribrianne
Super Ribrianne
Jimeze
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Lavender
Basil
Ribrianne
Tagoma

Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Shisami
Jaco

There are so many things wrong with this scale dude.

Future Trunks' Genkidama sword above Kefla?! When yet, Kelfa as a Super Saiyan rivaled the Genkidama Gokou used against Jiren and surpassed it by transforming into Super Saiyan 2. And Jiren is likely beyond even Zamas due to the fact that Beerus was pretty scared by Jiren's power whereas Beerus shrugged off Zamas' power even when he was merging with the entire universe.
Then Good Boo, you still put him around the same early Boo Saga levels? Good Boo in Super episode 85, contended with Base form God Essence Gokou dude and forced him into a ring out.
Then Ribrianne should be beyond someone like Basil and Gotenks because she's able to fight against Base form Gokou albeit Gokou was suppressed. But Basil along with all of the Universe 9 team, got dicked down by Gokou and Vegeta in Base form although they had poison against both Gokou and Vegeta.
You should've at least explained why you had this list the way it is. At least give some sort of reasoning behind the characters' places on your scale. Honestly I feel I need to completely break down this scale from start to finish.

[Bullza]

Future Trunks' Genkidama sword above Kefla?! When yet, Kelfa as a Super Saiyan rivaled the Genkidama Gokou used against Jiren and surpassed it by transforming into Super Saiyan 2.

Future Trunks with the Spirit Sword easily overpowered Merged Zamasu and cleaved him half. Merged Zamasu being a character who rivalled Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

A Super Saiyan 2 Kefla shouldn't be close to that level. It'd be a comparable difference between any Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan Blue.

Good Boo in Super episode 85, contended with Base form God Essence Gokou dude and forced him into a ring out.

I was only including Good Buu as the Fat version not the Slim version.

Then Ribrianne should be beyond someone like Basil and Gotenks because she's able to fight against Base form Gokou albeit Gokou was suppressed. But Basil along with all of the Universe 9 team, got dicked down by Gokou and Vegeta in Base form although they had poison against both Gokou and Vegeta.

Well that's where it gets a bit more complicated. Ribrianne was beaten fairly easily by Base Vegeta. She was more of a comic relief character when compared to the Trio De Dangers.

Bergamo was able to put up a proper fight against Base Goku unlike Ribrianne. Basil and Lavender didn't seem to fair off much worse than Ribrianne.

Master Roshi also held his own against Base Goku as did Krillin, can't see them being above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks either.

[SupremeKai25]

Future Trunks with the Spirit Sword easily overpowered Merged Zamasu and cleaved him half.

He 'easily' overpowered an unsuspecting and exhausted Fused Zamasu, i might add.

[HeroR]

Why is Piccolo so high?

Also shouldn't 18 be higher? The fact that she survived punches from Aniraza is pretty impressive

Well Piccolo was a match for Super Saiyan 2 Gohan so he should be around that level because all the Saiyans seem to be on a similar level.

It's hard to say about Android 18 too.

Gohan got stronger since 88 and was evenly match for base form Goku in his own base. The same base form Goku that no sold a charged attack from Piccolo.

[supercat]

Both Piccolo and 18 are presumably leagues above SSJ3 Gotenks at the very least, if not the entirety of the Buu saga.

SSJ3 Gotenks attacks inflicted no damage whatsoever on Copy Base Vegeta, an incarnation of Vegeta that is much weaker than the Base Goku that sparred against Piccolo and fought Ribrianne in the ToP. When Piccolo blasted Goku, it was clear that while Goku was able to tank the attack, he still had to exert himself quite a bit; basically the opposite of how a much weaker Copy Base Vegeta nonchalantly took all of SSJ3 Gotenk's attacks like they were nothing. This feat shows Piccolo >>> SSJ3 Gotenks at the very least.

Base Goku was also shown to be comparable to Ribrianne; who I might add, not only held a slight advantage, but powered up further. Now, that same Ribrianne who is presumably > / = Base Goku was defeated by Android 18. This in and of itself is a pretty good indication of Android 18 >>> SSJ3 Gotenks bare minimum. This may be a bit debatable, but there's also Android 18 tossing the same Tupper that Base Goku was completely helpless against just moments before; though Tupper's ability to change his weight may have been a partial contribution to Android 18's success.

Personally, I adhere to the following:

Base Goku (full power) = Android 18 > Ribrianne > Piccolo > / = Base Goku (~70-80%) > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu > Mr. Buu

There's also nothing wrong with 18 getting so powerful in such little time, as just like 17, she started off with a power that far exceeded Namek Frieza and SSJ Goku. That, coupled with her technology and unlimited stamina are likely what contribute towards such rapid progress. Also, this whole thing about how certain characters should stay weak or previous benchmarks and/or milestones would be put to shame argument really doesn't hold much weight in my opinion. Dragon Ball has shown time and time again that once revered calibers are basically nothing once a new opponent shows up.

Sure, some power ups were likely put in place for the sole purpose of moving the story along; but why should that even be a reason to complain and resort to odd fan-made theories to try and incessantly justify why a particular character is actually weaker than they appeared to be? We as fans, should be grateful that the story is actually progressing rather than whining about trivial things like nonsensical power scaling.

[Noah]

Both Piccolo and 18 are presumably leagues above SSJ3 Gotenks at the very least, if not the entirety of the Boo saga.

Oh sure both Piccolo and 18 had surpassed Boo-han and Super Vegetto in less than 10 years with little to no training, that's makes a lot of sense, no wonder someone said that in this thread:

I gave up on trying to scale the anime. It is pure madness!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm gonna keep driving home this one point of mine until SOMEONE decides that it's the right idea.

You don't always have to be of a particular power level to fight well anymore.

Even when there's a huge difference in terms of "power level", a fight no longer has to boil down to who has the bigger number all the time. It does sometimes, but not all the time. The fight that Vegeta had against Jiren perfectly encapsulates this.

Right at the start, we see Jiren simply taking Vegeta's blows. Then, when he gets caught up in other aspects of the fight like his moves being predicted by Vegeta, he gets some shots in the gut from Vegeta despite easily taking blows earlier. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. When Jiren decides to rely solely on his power, nobody can really do anything to him, but he's just standing there and not accomplishing much of anything else.

When he decides to involve his skill, he's still doing quite well, but because he's not completely focused on taking hits, he can be hurt, even if he accomplishes more due to him actually throwing punches.

[supercat]

Both Piccolo and 18 are presumably leagues above SSJ3 Gotenks at the very least, if not the entirety of the Boo saga.

Oh sure both Piccolo and 18 had surpassed Boo-han and Super Vegetto in less than 10 years with little to no training, that's makes a lot of sense, no wonder someone said that in this thread:

I gave up on trying to scale the anime. It is pure madness!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I just went over why the power scale is what it is and reinforced it with a handful of feats and the best you could come up with is how it doesn't make sense. Which might I add, really supports my point, as the post not only addresses how and why the power scale DOES make sense, but it also refers to fans who seemingly don't know how to appreciate a great show for what it is. Also, if you think all of this is that nonsensical, why even bother reading my posts? I'm pretty sure most of the people here know where my stance is when it comes to power scaling.

And who's to say what makes sense and what doesn't in a show where characters fly around while battling aliens with magical attacks. I seriously cannot decipher why fans need justification for every minute detail. Oh wait no, not even that, it's not even seeking justification that I have a difficult time grasping, since many of the points I made above do show why the power scale makes sense; it's more of needing justification in a way that they feel is appropriate.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I'm gonna keep driving home this one point of mine until SOMEONE decides that it's the right idea.

You don't always have to be of a particular power level to fight well anymore.

Even when there's a huge difference in terms of "power level", a fight no longer has to boil down to who has the bigger number all the time. It does sometimes, but not all the time. The fight that Vegeta had against Jiren perfectly encapsulates this.

Right at the start, we see Jiren simply taking Vegeta's blows. Then, when he gets caught up in other aspects of the fight like his moves being predicted by Vegeta, he gets some shots in the gut from Vegeta despite easily taking blows earlier. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. When Jiren decides to rely solely on his power, nobody can really do anything to him, but he's just standing there and not accomplishing much of anything else.

When he decides to involve his skill, he's still doing quite well, but because he's not completely focused on taking hits, he can be hurt, even if he accomplishes more due to him actually throwing punches.

Using jiren was a bad anology. Jiren has not been hurt at all so far. Jiren was surprised that vegeta was able to land a punch, thats it. The problem with using jiren in your comparison is that, not only is jirens power level alone above a god of destruction, but his fighting skills are almost as good as a user of Ultra instinct (UI goku vs Jiren). Other than that, i have no problem with people believing that skill matters more than power (i disagree with it tho)

[Miracles]

I'm gonna keep driving home this one point of mine until SOMEONE decides that it's the right idea.

You don't always have to be of a particular power level to fight well anymore.

Even when there's a huge difference in terms of "power level", a fight no longer has to boil down to who has the bigger number all the time. It does sometimes, but not all the time. The fight that Vegeta had against Jiren perfectly encapsulates this.

Right at the start, we see Jiren simply taking Vegeta's blows. Then, when he gets caught up in other aspects of the fight like his moves being predicted by Vegeta, he gets some shots in the gut from Vegeta despite easily taking blows earlier. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. When Jiren decides to rely solely on his power, nobody can really do anything to him, but he's just standing there and not accomplishing much of anything else.

When he decides to involve his skill, he's still doing quite well, but because he's not completely focused on taking hits, he can be hurt, even if he accomplishes more due to him actually throwing punches.

Using jiren was a bad anology. Jiren has not been hurt at all so far. Jiren was surprised that vegeta was able to land a punch, thats it. The problem with using jiren in your comparison is that, not only is jirens power level alone above a god of destruction, but his fighting skills are almost as good as a user of Ultra instinct (UI goku vs Jiren). Other than that, i have no problem with people believing that skill matters more than power (i disagree with it tho)

And people who say skill matters more than power goes against the utmost commandment of Dragonball. Higher Ki level always equals victory. All the transformations the saiyans and freeza has is for the purpose of more power! Hit's time skip does not work on those on another level in power and look how even UI Goku still needed a power boost just to match Jiren for UI to be effective.