Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I'm gonna keep driving home this one point of mine until SOMEONE decides that it's the right idea.

You don't always have to be of a particular power level to fight well anymore.

Even when there's a huge difference in terms of "power level", a fight no longer has to boil down to who has the bigger number all the time. It does sometimes, but not all the time. The fight that Vegeta had against Jiren perfectly encapsulates this.

Right at the start, we see Jiren simply taking Vegeta's blows. Then, when he gets caught up in other aspects of the fight like his moves being predicted by Vegeta, he gets some shots in the gut from Vegeta despite easily taking blows earlier. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. When Jiren decides to rely solely on his power, nobody can really do anything to him, but he's just standing there and not accomplishing much of anything else.

When he decides to involve his skill, he's still doing quite well, but because he's not completely focused on taking hits, he can be hurt, even if he accomplishes more due to him actually throwing punches.

Using jiren was a bad anology. Jiren has not been hurt at all so far. Jiren was surprised that vegeta was able to land a punch, thats it. The problem with using jiren in your comparison is that, not only is jirens power level alone above a god of destruction, but his fighting skills are almost as good as a user of Ultra instinct (UI goku vs Jiren). Other than that, i have no problem with people believing that skill matters more than power (i disagree with it tho)

And people who say skill matters more than power goes against the utmost commandment of Dragonball. Higher Ki level always equals victory. All the transformations the saiyans and freeza has is for the purpose of more power! Hit's time skip does not work on those on another level in power and look how even UI Goku still needed a power boost just to match Jiren for UI to be effective.

Explain Roshi beating Ganos.

[Miracles]

Using jiren was a bad anology. Jiren has not been hurt at all so far. Jiren was surprised that vegeta was able to land a punch, thats it. The problem with using jiren in your comparison is that, not only is jirens power level alone above a god of destruction, but his fighting skills are almost as good as a user of Ultra instinct (UI goku vs Jiren). Other than that, i have no problem with people believing that skill matters more than power (i disagree with it tho)

And people who say skill matters more than power goes against the utmost commandment of Dragonball. Higher Ki level always equals victory. All the transformations the saiyans and freeza has is for the purpose of more power! Hit's time skip does not work on those on another level in power and look how even UI Goku still needed a power boost just to match Jiren for UI to be effective.

Explain Roshi beating Ganos.

Perfect example...At first Roshi was tutoring Ganos up but as Ganos got stronger Roshi got wrecked and then Roshi himself had to get buff and beat Ganos with a raw power Kamehameha.

[ZombieVito]

And people who say skill matters more than power goes against the utmost commandment of Dragonball. Higher Ki level always equals victory. All the transformations the saiyans and freeza has is for the purpose of more power! Hit's time skip does not work on those on another level in power and look how even UI Goku still needed a power boost just to match Jiren for UI to be effective.

Explain Roshi beating Ganos.

Perfect example...At first Roshi was tutoring Ganos up but as Ganos got stronger Roshi got wrecked and then Roshi himself had to get buff and beat Ganos with a raw power Kamehameha.

But was Roshi not stronger than him and he still won.

[Miracles]

Explain Roshi beating Ganos.

Perfect example...At first Roshi was tutoring Ganos up but as Ganos got stronger Roshi got wrecked and then Roshi himself had to get buff and beat Ganos with a raw power Kamehameha.

But was Roshi not stronger than him and he still won.

Nope. Roshi using the Kamehameha was stronger than Ganos. Ganos electric attack had no effect on Roshi when powering up his Kamehameha.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm gonna keep driving home this one point of mine until SOMEONE decides that it's the right idea.

You don't always have to be of a particular power level to fight well anymore.

Even when there's a huge difference in terms of "power level", a fight no longer has to boil down to who has the bigger number all the time. It does sometimes, but not all the time. The fight that Vegeta had against Jiren perfectly encapsulates this.

Right at the start, we see Jiren simply taking Vegeta's blows. Then, when he gets caught up in other aspects of the fight like his moves being predicted by Vegeta, he gets some shots in the gut from Vegeta despite easily taking blows earlier. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. When Jiren decides to rely solely on his power, nobody can really do anything to him, but he's just standing there and not accomplishing much of anything else.

When he decides to involve his skill, he's still doing quite well, but because he's not completely focused on taking hits, he can be hurt, even if he accomplishes more due to him actually throwing punches.

Using jiren was a bad anology. Jiren has not been hurt at all so far. Jiren was surprised that vegeta was able to land a punch, thats it. The problem with using jiren in your comparison is that, not only is jirens power level alone above a god of destruction, but his fighting skills are almost as good as a user of Ultra instinct (UI goku vs Jiren). Other than that, i have no problem with people believing that skill matters more than power (i disagree with it tho)

And people who say skill matters more than power goes against the utmost commandment of Dragonball. Higher Ki level always equals victory. All the transformations the saiyans and freeza has is for the purpose of more power! Hit's time skip does not work on those on another level in power and look how even UI Goku still needed a power boost just to match Jiren for UI to be effective.

There are other examples. Goku vs. Caulifla/Kale/Kefla is a classic. Sometimes, Goku got the upper hand despite having less power. Of course, if the power difference is too great, skill alone won’t be enough.

[Rally 07]

Future Trunks' Genkidama sword above Kefla?! When yet, Kelfa as a Super Saiyan rivaled the Genkidama Gokou used against Jiren and surpassed it by transforming into Super Saiyan 2.

Future Trunks with the Spirit Sword easily overpowered Merged Zamasu and cleaved him half. Merged Zamasu being a character who rivalled Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

A Super Saiyan 2 Kefla shouldn't be close to that level. It'd be a comparable difference between any Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan Blue.

Good Boo in Super episode 85, contended with Base form God Essence Gokou dude and forced him into a ring out.

I was only including Good Buu as the Fat version not the Slim version.

Then Ribrianne should be beyond someone like Basil and Gotenks because she's able to fight against Base form Gokou albeit Gokou was suppressed. But Basil along with all of the Universe 9 team, got dicked down by Gokou and Vegeta in Base form although they had poison against both Gokou and Vegeta.

Well that's where it gets a bit more complicated. Ribrianne was beaten fairly easily by Base Vegeta. She was more of a comic relief character when compared to the Trio De Dangers.

Bergamo was able to put up a proper fight against Base Goku unlike Ribrianne. Basil and Lavender didn't seem to fair off much worse than Ribrianne.

Master Roshi also held his own against Base Goku as did Krillin, can't see them being above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks either.

Okay well, with Majin Boo, you should be more specific to be honest. But Good Boo is still fat but more powerful than any other Boo at this point. If you. You should've specifically stated Good Boo from the Boo Saga to avoid confusion.

Ribrianne is debatable but I can let it all slide. I never liked her anyhow.

And about Kefla. Are you downplaying her?! Because she should very well be beyond the Genkidama dude. It's stated over and over. Perhaps we should debate on this?

[Bullza]

And about Kefla. Are you downplaying her?! Because she should very well be beyond the Genkidama dude. It's stated over and over. Perhaps we should debate on this?

It depends what you would count as a downplay.

I see Super Saiyan Kefla as being stronger than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito as Super Saiyan Kale should be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be twice as that.

She shouldn't be nearly as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito though. Merged Zamasu and Beerus (going by the manga) and likely the other Gods should be around Blue Vegito's level as well.

Trunks with the Spirit Sword could possibly be lower if the only reason he beat Zamasu was because he was weakened at the time or just cutting him in general was enough to win.

[Hugo Boss]

If you count that Vegetto lasted less than the expected due to the massive energy consumption of Super Saiyan Blue while Kefla didn’t have the same problem, you could say that Vegetto is probably the strongest.

Merged Zamasu though is a different story. He could hold his own against Vegetto, but he was told to be falling apart several times. So, I think a genkidama level slash was all that was needed to finish the process, since Vegetto did a good part of the work.

So, I agree that Kefla surpassed Trunks, but she isn’t as strong as a serious Vegetto.

[ZombieVito]

I'm not so sure that Zamasu was getting weaker. Just a few moments before Trunks steps in, he tank a Final Kamehameha like it was nothing.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm not so sure that Zamasu was getting weaker. Just a few moments before Trunks steps in, he tank a Final Kamehameha like it was nothing.

That Final Kamehameha heavily damaged Fused Zamasu's immortality. His body was unstable, his immortality was imperfect, the good guys exploited this to defeat him in his physical form. So when Trunks jumped in to fight Zamasu, his immortality had already taken a lot of critical damage. But, truthfully, Fused Zamasu could have kept fighting with just his immortal half. Gowasu actually mentions in the next episode that Fused Zamasu cast off his flawed form as a God, therefore it is implied that Zamasu's immortal soul somehow willingly abandoned his body to latch onto the nearest host: the Universe.

[dragon boss z]

Future Trunks' Genkidama sword above Kefla?! When yet, Kelfa as a Super Saiyan rivaled the Genkidama Gokou used against Jiren and surpassed it by transforming into Super Saiyan 2.

Future Trunks with the Spirit Sword easily overpowered Merged Zamasu and cleaved him half. Merged Zamasu being a character who rivalled Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

A Super Saiyan 2 Kefla shouldn't be close to that level. It'd be a comparable difference between any Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan Blue.

Good Boo in Super episode 85, contended with Base form God Essence Gokou dude and forced him into a ring out.

I was only including Good Buu as the Fat version not the Slim version.

Then Ribrianne should be beyond someone like Basil and Gotenks because she's able to fight against Base form Gokou albeit Gokou was suppressed. But Basil along with all of the Universe 9 team, got dicked down by Gokou and Vegeta in Base form although they had poison against both Gokou and Vegeta.

Well that's where it gets a bit more complicated. Ribrianne was beaten fairly easily by Base Vegeta. She was more of a comic relief character when compared to the Trio De Dangers.

Bergamo was able to put up a proper fight against Base Goku unlike Ribrianne. Basil and Lavender didn't seem to fair off much worse than Ribrianne.

Master Roshi also held his own against Base Goku as did Krillin, can't see them being above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks either.

Okay well, with Majin Boo, you should be more specific to be honest. But Good Boo is still fat but more powerful than any other Boo at this point. If you. You should've specifically stated Good Boo from the Boo Saga to avoid confusion.

Ribrianne is debatable but I can let it all slide. I never liked her anyhow.

And about Kefla. Are you downplaying her?! Because she should very well be beyond the Genkidama dude. It's stated over and over. Perhaps we should debate on this?

Ummm Buu isn't any stronger than he was during the Majin Buu arc. At best you could argue that skinny good Buu is the strongest Buu (which I doubt), but current Fat Buu isn't any stronger than he used to be, or at least there is no proof he is.

[Green]

Regarding Kafla and Vegetto, there's two possibilities that can be reached by reasoning which I've noticed from various users:

1st stance:
Vegetto wasn't that amazingly different from Genkidama Trunks, and a stronger Goku presumably using a stronger Genkidama was stated to be on SS Kafla's level.
Jiren is stronger than Merged Zamasu and Goku's Genkidama forced him to get somewhat more serious than when he fought Vegeta this ep.

2st stance:
Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, SSB is a way stronger transformation than SSBerserk or SS2Berserk (but I wouldn't be so sure that it's a 2x multiplier) thus Vegetto > Kafla.
SSB Vegetto is Hakaishin level while Kafla presumably isn't considering there was no mention whatsoever.

[Rally 07]

And about Kefla. Are you downplaying her?! Because she should very well be beyond the Genkidama dude. It's stated over and over. Perhaps we should debate on this?

It depends what you would count as a downplay.

I see Super Saiyan Kefla as being stronger than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito as Super Saiyan Kale should be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be twice as that.

She shouldn't be nearly as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito though. Merged Zamasu and Beerus (going by the manga) and likely the other Gods should be around Blue Vegito's level as well.

Trunks with the Spirit Sword could possibly be lower if the only reason he beat Zamasu was because he was weakened at the time or just cutting him in general was enough to win.

What I count as downplay is basically is; One is denying or disregarding any evidence proving her strength is at whatever level of power. Along with that there are statements given through Whis and even Piccolo that prove Kefla is comparable to the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct.

And characters like Jiren and Kefla such very well be beyond Merged Zamas, Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto and suppressed Beerus if you use Jiren as a scale. Jiren in his suppressed state intimidated Beerus even more than infinite Zamas who was literally merging with the entire universe. And Shin backs this up as he states "Jiren's power is beyond anything we ever faced before. He's just strong plain and simple" And Shin in this situation, can be used a good source because he WAS there to witness Merged Zamas and his power. Then Whis comments again that Jiren has Hakaishin-like power and possibly surpassed it altogether.

Then Kefla is blatantly stated to have rivaled the Genkidama by Whis and Piccolo stated Kefla straight up surpassed "Gokou's earlier level". Meaning she's stronger than the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct Gokou earlier when he fought Jiren. Then Kefla transformed into Super Saiyan and bodied Super Saiyan Blue Gokou w/ Kaioken. She even flat out told Gokou she wasn't even going all out. Albeit, Gokou as a Super Saiyan Blue was able to keep up with Kefla though. But Super Saiyan Blue is likely above Base form Kefla though as she needed to transform into Super Saiyan. Then she bodies Gokou, and he transformed into Ultra Instinct again. Kefla transforms into Super Saiyan 2. She is now above the Genkidama she rivaled as a Super Saiyan. And she fights Ultra Instinct Gokou and can't hit him due to the self-movement the transformation gives you. But Kefla does later tell Gokou his attacks are wimpy though. Obviously because Gokou hasn't completely mastered the transformation yet.
Then Kefla was later stated to possibly kill Gokou with her attacks by Muten Roshi. This leads me to believe Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was probably a tad bit stronger than Ultra Instinct Gokou. Even Vados and Whis back this up as they state "Kefla's speed, power, and vigor is impressive but Gokou's reaction is better".

Also I wouldn't use the manga to scale Vegetto for the anime as you seem to be doing. I wouldn't connect the manga and anime for power scaling as scaling is completely different from each other. But I do believe Vegetto is probably rivals Beerus a great deal. Now Tournament of Power Vegetto is a bit different though as Ultra Instinct Gokou now rivals Hakaishins, with them pissing themselves about it and Jiren's power being displayed in front of them. So I do think Vegetto could probably match at least suppressed Beerus, but who really knows at this point in time until Vegetto makes his return again.

Also Future Trunks only won by an asspull and plot. Just like Yajirobe, Gokou and Vegeta escaping Gokou Black out of plot induce stupidity. Gokou Black realistically would've got their asses. But the Genkidama sword thing is somewhat explainable as genki/spirit energy is exponential as proven with Freeza, Kid Boo, and Jiren. But regardless, Future Trunks and his victory were pure nonsense all the same.
Also forgot to mention. I don't remember Merged Zamas exactly being stated to be weaker. In fact he was probably getting stronger as he was pulling a Cell and increasing his power along with his body size.

[Bullza]

Along with that there are statements given through Whis and even Piccolo that prove Kefla is comparable to the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct.

Well maybe the same is true for Merged Zamasu. You'd think with him being able to hold his own against Blue Vegito and even fully tank his Final Kamehameha that he would probably be above Super Saiyan 2 Kefla who was blown away by Ultra Instinct Goku's Kamehameha.

Then Whis comments again that Jiren has Hakaishin-like power and possibly surpassed it altogether.

I have no problem with Jiren being that strong. I do think he is above Beerus, Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu. I'm not sure about Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla though, I'm not sure if those two were meant to be at that God of Destruction level.

Then Kefla was later stated to possibly kill Gokou with her attacks by Muten Roshi. This leads me to believe Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was probably a tad bit stronger than Ultra Instinct Gokou.

Well I do think Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than Episode 110 Ultra Instinct Goku and she was at least somewhat comparable to him in Episode 116 but it depends how strong those two are in relation to Beerus or Blue Vegito.

Also Future Trunks only won by an asspull and plot.

Well it was for the sake of the plot but the Spirit Sword was still supposed to be enormously powerful. Whose to say it wouldn't also kill Beerus or even Jiren given the chance. Jiren did push back Goku's Kamehameha and he likely would never get hit by it.

But if he did then maybe it would cleave him in half as well.

[Rally 07]

[quote="Bullza]

Ummm Buu isn't any stronger than he was during the Majin Buu arc. At best you could argue that skinny good Buu is the strongest Buu (which I doubt), but current Fat Buu isn't any stronger than he used to be, or at least there is no proof he is.

[/quote]

Umm..... How can you say that when Boo was able to swap hands with Base form Gokou? The same Base form Gokou who can literally solo the entire Boo Saga, is probably universal at full power, then probably is a strong as Super Saiyan Blue from the Fukkatsu no F story arc. And Good Boo matched this same Base form Gokou. You can't say he's not the strongest Boo if he can match Base form Gokou.

[BWri]

Looks like Seth the Programmer agrees with me in the belief that Vegeta's new power will be similar to FP SSB (https://youtu.be/WRdfAejOaos?t=12m9s). Narratively, it'll likely be used to make him Goku's equal. Not sure if that's an equal to SSBKKx20 or UI. It's just a theory in any case

Explain Roshi beating Ganos.

Perfect example...At first Roshi was tutoring Ganos up but as Ganos got stronger Roshi got wrecked and then Roshi himself had to get buff and beat Ganos with a raw power Kamehameha.

But was Roshi not stronger than him and he still won.

Roshi beat Ganos with raw power beyond his limits. My only problem with the fight was that in the end, it didn't come down to skill but raw power, and Roshi, a character that should have been the weakest on team U7 ended up overpowering one of the stars, if not THE star of U4. It made U4 look even more pathetic. Though, it was a touching scene and Roshi's speech was a Top 5 ToP moment.

The writers did save themselves by adding that Ganos' power was rapidly growing, so in time he might have been a threat to the stronger characters.

[BWri]

[quote="Bullza]

Ummm Buu isn't any stronger than he was during the Majin Buu arc. At best you could argue that skinny good Buu is the strongest Buu (which I doubt), but current Fat Buu isn't any stronger than he used to be, or at least there is no proof he is.

Umm..... How can you say that when Boo was able to swap hands with Base form Gokou? The same Base form Gokou who can literally solo the entire Boo Saga, is probably universal at full power, then probably is a strong as Super Saiyan Blue from the Fukkatsu no F story arc. And Good Boo matched this same Base form Gokou. You can't say he's not the strongest Boo if he can match Base form Gokou.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Same way you can solve any of Super's scaling issues, Goku was holding back. I'm not saying he was, just that it's a likely scenario. My opinion is that Buu had become a lot stronger in those 2 hours he had to train. I think of his potential as that of Frieza but on steroids.

[Rally 07]

Same way you can solve any of Super's scaling issues, Goku was holding back. I'm not saying he was, just that it's a likely scenario. My opinion is that Buu had become a lot stronger in those 2 hours he had to train. I think of his potential as that of Frieza but on steroids.

I agree. However Gokou tends to hold back or mess around like transforming into Super Saiyan when he doesn't need to.
But I agree with you with the notion of Boo's potential. In fact, I personally believe Majin Boo as a whole, including Oob, is probably the most gifted fighter Universe 7 possesses. He can learn on the fly, STEAL and create his own variants of his opponent's attacks and techniques. And Boo's power can raise to the unbelievable levels.

[BWri]

Same way you can solve any of Super's scaling issues, Goku was holding back. I'm not saying he was, just that it's a likely scenario. My opinion is that Buu had become a lot stronger in those 2 hours he had to train. I think of his potential as that of Frieza but on steroids.

I agree. However Gokou tends to hold back or mess around like transforming into Super Saiyan when he doesn't need to.
But I agree with you with the notion of Boo's potential. In fact, I personally believe Majin Boo as a whole, including Oob, is probably the most gifted fighter Universe 7 possesses. He can learn on the fly, STEAL and create his own variants of his opponent's attacks and techniques. And Boo's power can raise to the unbelievable levels.

I still don't understand the depths of power in anime Goku's base form. It's wildly inconsistent, so I have no choice but to believe that he's holding back on people that aren't at least high Buu saga Vegetto tier, as that Goku appeared even with a base Frieza (white form) that was likely hundreds of times stronger than his most suppressed transformation (small horn form) which toyed with a Gohan who was stronger than his Buu saga self as he defeated Tagoma who in his words was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best".

Yeah, Buu's a monster. I personally think that is the way AT thinks of him too and its why he's not using him in all these tournament arcs, well, that and his powerful abilities. If Buu ever stopped being treated as a gag, he'd be a hero worse than Superman, in that he'd have a lot of power and and abilities with no weaknesses.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?