"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ToshioWrites]

Toriyama outline probably said something like " saiyan uses last ditch technique to defeat m zamasu, it fails and he spread everywhere" - This is my guess of course

In the manga goku used the hakai

In the anime trunks used his spirit bomb/hope of humanity sword.

[ToshioWrites]

So in Chapter 32 i believe, viz had goku tell vegeta he didn't use his full power vs toppo but herms said it was more in reference to goku letting his guard down. I found this on another forum. Is it possible goku used his normal blue form instead of the completed blue form vs toppo?



In this image, the aura around his hand is not supposed to be there around his hand and goku is worried about it




Now here you can see a similar aura around his hand when trying to punch toppo, the only time he did this on purpose was when he tried to hakai m zamasu

[alakazam^]

This all leads back to the single defining issue with this entire arc: there's no real tension. And that's largely due to Super's outright refusal to dive into how fucked up that Goku is the main reason this is all happening. a better show would have focused on the desperation of its characters since they're facing outright oblivion. There is no coming back from that. So a Toppo that's desperate, a Toppo that sees the writing on the wall and makes an impulsive decision, that's something that would have made his transformation have emotional weight.

But this is Super we're talking about, so maybe I'm asking too much of it.

Except Goku isn't the reason the arc is happening. The show is good enough for you, apparently, since you're following it but you're right, you're asking for too much because the anime isn't made to cater to your needs.

But Toriyama/Toei had no guts for that.

Or maybe they didn't want to do that?

[LightBing]

Wait you saw the other pages aside from the pilaf one,mind posting here and since when Vegeta learned the hakai in the Manga.

Vegeta didn't use Hakai in the manga but he recognized the move, which implies they saw it before.

Goku mentioned he's using this horrible move so is not a plothole if anything is kinda of a deux ex machina.

Technically it's both a plothole and an asspull.

Plothole, because the characters know about something that it's never implied they saw/learnt about it.
Asspull, because Goku shouldn't be able to copy something that only GoDs or candidates to GoD seem able to do.

It's not a plothole because there's no contradiction, nothing limits Goku from learning the Hakai. Your reason why was made up by yourself, there's no such limitation in the manga. Even your on reason is wrong because technically Goku's is a Hakaishin candidate since Whis invited him.

It is an asspull because it's out of nowhere, there should have been the slight glimpse into this aspect like with Trunks healing power. So yeah, not a plothole but defiantly an asspull.

[jeffbr92]

Or maybe they didn't want to do that?

Fair enough, probably is that thing that Toriyama stated before that he didn't wanted to do story too complicated for kids. Although I don't see anything complicated on having the protagonist being the cause of a conflict and the other characters questioning his actions.

[Exline]

Hit vs Goku/Vegeta

Dyspo vs 17

Freeza vs Kale

Hear fights won’t have results most likely but still would be cool

It does seem like we'll get the three humans vs Frost, so some of the second tier matches might end up different from the anime's.

Yeah

I´m looking forward to Frost vs. Krillin, Roshi and Tien, I think they may put him in a hurry together so Frost will then aim to KO them one by one.

Also hope we get this fights:

Vegeta vs Hit
17 vs Dyspo
Bergamo vs Piccolo

Hm? Why do you guys want Dyspo vs. 17?

And yes I'm getting a feeling the Earthlings are going to have to work together to deal with Frost. That would be an interesting fight that should give us plenty of teamwork tactics.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I want to see more fights/interactions involving more teamwork.

Some examples I came up with:

Vegeta and Cabba (These two are clearly master and pupil. Vegeta might encourage him to show off his training Post U6 Tournament.)
Toppo and his Pride Troopers (We should see Toppo acting like a leader instead of standing around letting his teammates get sidelined.)
Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa (We didn't really get to see much cooperation between these three. These magical girls need to demonstrate why they are called the Kamikaze Fireballs.)

Wait you saw the other pages aside from the pilaf one,mind posting here and since when Vegeta learned the hakai in the Manga.

Vegeta didn't use Hakai in the manga but he recognized the move, which implies they saw it before.

Goku mentioned he's using this horrible move so is not a plothole if anything is kinda of a deux ex machina.

Technically it's both a plothole and an asspull.

Plothole, because the characters know about something that it's never implied they saw/learnt about it.
Asspull, because Goku shouldn't be able to copy something that only GoDs or candidates to GoD seem able to do.

Isn't it called Mimicry? Like how Goku and Tien easily learn the Kamehameha and Mafuuba?

[FortuneSSJ]

It's not a plothole because there's no contradiction, nothing limits Goku from learning the Hakai. Your reason why was made up by yourself, there's no such limitation in the manga. Even your on reason is wrong because technically Goku's is a Hakaishin candidate since Whis invited him.

It's a plothole, because Goku can't copy something he never saw or know about something he was never told. Well in this case he did and that's a plothole.

Goku trains under Whis, but he refused to be a GoD candidate. Unlike Toppo, he never was officially appointed as one either. They asked him about it and he refused.
That's like saying Goku is a candidate to be Earth's God, because Kami asked him to be one. The moment he refuses, he's no longer a candidate.

Isn't it called Mimicry? Like how Goku and Tien easily learn the Kamehameha and Mafuuba?

It could be, but there are two problems here:
1 - Goku never watched Beerus' Hakai in the manga. How can you copy something you never saw?! You can't.
2 - There's a big difference between copy "normal" ki attacks like Kamehameha and Mafuba and something that can literally erase everything you want.

[Rebel Instinct]

It's not a plothole because there's no contradiction, nothing limits Goku from learning the Hakai. Your reason why was made up by yourself, there's no such limitation in the manga. Even your on reason is wrong because technically Goku's is a Hakaishin candidate since Whis invited him.

It's a plothole, because Goku can't copy something he never saw. Well in this case he did and that's a plothole.
Goku trains under Whis, but he refused to be a GoD candidate. He never was officially appointed as one either. They asked him about it and he refused.
That's like saying Goku is a candidate to be Earth's God, because Kami asked him to be one. The moment he refuses, he's no longer a candidate.

To borrow a few quotes from Zephyr:

Regardless, there's literally nothing that says that the technique is somehow only reserved for a God of Destruction. These are made up rules being contradicted. And even still, why do you need to see Goku being granted the ability? He's fought a God of Destruction personally, he's lived with one for several months, and trained with said God of Destruction's attendant/martial arts master. It's more than plausible that Goku might have been able to pick this sort of thing up.

...

Well they didn't spell it out for us, which means them implying it is an icky plothole! We have no explicit confirmation that Bulma and Vegeta have ever had sex. Where the fuck did Trunks come from!? And how did Bulma get pregnant with Bra!? Remember, when you try to answer these: you can't use inductive reasoning or connect the dots. If they didn't spell it out on the nose, then it couldn't have happened, and Akira is a hack.

You realize that the "God of Destruction" is a job, not a species/race, right? You remember that mortals can become Gods of Destruction, right? That means it's not an inherent ability. That means it can be learned. That means people not born as gods can learn it. You remember that Goku lived with the martial arts master and attendant of a God of Destruction, right? The amount reaching required to take issue with this would leave the original run of the series in complete fucking shambles, if applied there.

Not that I'll expect any of this to change your mind on the subject. You were also present in the same pages of discussion I pulled these quotes from, saying the exact same thing back when the chapter first came out. Regardless, I fully agree with what Zephyr had to say on this and I have zero intention of having a back and forth argument about this, but I figured that it would be worthwhile reposting these points for others to look over and consider.

[FortuneSSJ]

Not that I'll expect any of this to change your mind on the subject. You were also present in the same pages of discussion I pulled these quotes from, saying the exact same thing back when the chapter first came out. Regardless, I fully agree with what Zephyr had to say on this and I have zero intention of having a back and forth argument about this, but I figured that it would be worthwhile reposting these points for others to look over and consider.

Yeah it won't and I remember that discussion. I also won't drag this any longer. I was waiting to see if Toyotaro would draw a bonus page to cover this in Volume 5 and since he didn't, I brought it up.

[JazzMazz]

How is Goku and Vegeta knowing of the Hakai ability and being able to mimic it a plot-hole, when they never explicitly say that its a technique reserved only for Gods of Destruction, and they mention the fact that they've seen the move been used before, albeit off panel?

[ToshioWrites]

Some other fights I'd like to see even if shortlived and resultless

Hit vs Toppo

Kale vs Dyspo

Gohan vs Maji Kayo

[Zephyr]

Except Goku isn't the reason the arc is happening.

He absolutely is. Although Zeno is explained to have been dissatisfied with the number of Universes on his own, Goku definitely expedited the move to consolidate.

If I remember correctly, Super establishes that time flows at the same pace across parallel timelines (or perhaps the original series did). In the main timeline, the Cell Games happen in Age 767, and the Black arc takes place as early as Age 779. Meaning that 12 years passed at minimum, in both timelines.

In the main timeline, Zeno begins erasing Universes in Age 780, but for the Cell arc to have even happened, Zeno can't have erased Universe 7 prior to Age 788 in other timelines (the year Cell makes his move to steal Trunks' time machine).

In Trunks' timeline, it is Age 785 when he returns home from the Cell games. If we then add the 12 years of time that need to pass before the Black arc happens, Universe 7 is still alive and kicking in Trunks' timeline as late as Age 797. Meaning that Goku sped this process up by a good 17 years.

Even if we're to disregard timelines flowing at an equal pace (or, in the event that I'm misremembering, and such a thing is never actually established), and Daizenshuu dates, and the like: enough time passed, without Zeno actively threatening Universe 7's erasure, in a timeline where Goku didn't interact with him, for Trunks to reach adulthood; meanwhile, enough time did not pass, without Zeno actively threatening Universe 7's erasure, in a timeline where Goku did interact with him, for Trunks to reach adulthood.

A fun wrinkle to all of this how in the manga, the 8 lowest Universes were about to be erased before Goku showed up. When reconciled with the fact that this didn't happen in other timelines for at least 17 years, this suggests that it's the addition of another Zeno that sped this process up, which is still ultimately Goku's doing.

In either medium, whether the story focuses on it or not (and in both cases, Goku giving people a chance to survive is indeed given more focus, it seems), Goku being too chill with the Zenos went about how Beerus warned him it would: now the end of the world is potentially happening much earlier than it was going to. On the flipside, though, in the event that Zeno was eventually going to erase them anyway, Goku did still give everyone a chance. He gave one Universe the chance to survive, at the expense of depriving seven other Universes at least another two decades of existence. That's morally grey as fuck, and I like it.

[prince212]

Plot Holes are those gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason. I believe the only reason of Goku training for several weeks with Beerus is enough to make it logical , another thing is the fact that it wasn’t referred before the moment he learned or he saw that technique, that is an asspull , An ass pull either has a completely unbelievable explanation or the writer conveniently forgets to add one in.

[Zephyr]

An ass pull either has a completely unbelievable explanation

What is at all unbelievable about "train with martial arts master, learn a technique of theirs"?

I feel like the quality of discussions here would improve dramatically over time if non-words like "asspull" were filtered.

[prince212]

An ass pull either has a completely unbelievable explanation

What is at all unbelievable about "train with martial arts master, learn a technique of theirs"?

I feel like the quality of discussions here would improve dramatically over time if non-words like "asspull" were filtered.

I just copied a google definition of asspull, this one :
An ass pull either has a completely unbelievable explanation or the writer conveniently forgets to add one in.
I thought that fits better in the explanation of how Goku can do hakai , the second part of the sentence says that the writer forgets to add and explanation , you just took the first part as a number one rule
I’m learning new words my friend , I read way worse quality discussions over here . Not a biggie , I’m trying to improve myself in knowledge about terms and meanings

[Zephyr]

the second part of the sentence says that the writer forgets to add and explanation , you just took the first part as a number one rule

I think the second part fails to hold ground as well. Goku is an idiot savant when it comes to learning and mastering techniques (the Kamehameha, the Kaioken, and Super Saiyan before, and now Ultra Instinct afterwards, all consistently demonstrate this), and he's been training with someone who knows the technique. What explanation is warranted? How are these not the most basic of dots to connect? Are there unanswered questions regarding the specifics and particulars of how his learning it went down? Sure! But there are just as well with things like, as was referenced above, Bulma and Vegeta engaging in sexual intercourse so as to create Bra. That this of all things shatters peoples' suspension of disbelief is beyond puzzling to me.

And no worries, I didn't mean for my reply to come off as rude or hostile in any way. Keep on growing with the rest of us.

[Rebel Instinct]

Sorry if I've ended up dragging you back into more arguments about Goku's Hakai again, Zephyr! I just remembered your points back then being particularly succinct and thought I'd repost them for brevity's sake.

[prince212]

the second part of the sentence says that the writer forgets to add and explanation , you just took the first part as a number one rule

I think the second part fails to hold ground as well. Goku is an idiot savant when it comes to learning and mastering techniques (the Kamehameha, the Kaioken, and Super Saiyan before, and now Ultra Instinct afterwards, all consistently demonstrate this), and he's been training with someone who knows the technique. What explanation is warranted? How are these not the most basic of dots to connect? Are there unanswered questions regarding the specifics and particulars of how his learning it went down? Sure! But there are just as well with things like, as was referenced above, Bulma and Vegeta engaging in sexual intercourse so as to create Bra. That this of all things shatters peoples' suspension of disbelief is beyond puzzling to me.

And no worries, I didn't mean for my reply to come off as rude or hostile in any way. Keep on growing with the rest of us.

Thank you , I appreciate it , and I agree with you , as I said in previous post is not a big deal , it’s just that will be nice to have that bonus drawing as a gag like some user suggested

[Zephyr]

it’s just that will be nice to have that bonus drawing as a gag like some user suggested

Can't disagree there. A short bit of Goku seeing if he could do it for funsies, and inadvertently destroying something important of Beerus', could be a fun gag callback to him learning the Kamehameha (where he destroyed the car they'd been driving).

[Bullza]

I have a feeling the manga is going to go the boring route by just having the one form of Ultra Instinct that Goku will get at the very end.