Bullza wrote:I have a feeling the manga is going to go the boring route by just having the one form of Ultra Instinct that Goku will get at the very end.
I wouldn't mind that actually. While it was hype in the anime, the manga obviously can't have the animation/music that helped make he moment and Goku pulling the form out 1 time when he needs it is more swallowable for me then it just activating 3 seperate times on its own.
Bullza wrote:I have a feeling the manga is going to go the boring route by just having the one form of Ultra Instinct that Goku will get at the very end.
I'd vastly prefer that to him activating it three times in the arc and accomplishing nothing the first time or the third time until he obtains the completed version.
Bullza wrote:I have a feeling the manga is going to go the boring route by just having the one form of Ultra Instinct that Goku will get at the very end.
I'd vastly prefer that to him activating it three times in the arc and accomplishing nothing the first time or the third time until he obtains the completed version.
I'd prefer that too than pulling the form out of his butt 3 times in a row.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I don't know, though it was annoying to see him using for three times, at least it was shown was something he had no full control yet... If people are complaining about Hakai being an asspull to Goku, imagine him having UI mastered in the very first time?
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Marlowe89 wrote:I'd vastly prefer that to him activating it three times in the arc and accomplishing nothing the first time or the third time until he obtains the completed version.
It's that what made Ultra Instinct better in the first place and separate of it from all the other forms.
Him just getting the Mastered Ultra Instinct from the start and that being his power has been done over and over. Him gradually gaining and losing it to in an attempt to finally get the hang of it hasn't been done before.
Bullza wrote:It's that what made Ultra Instinct better in the first place and separate of it from all the other forms.
Him just getting the Mastered Ultra Instinct from the start and that being his power has been done over and over. Him gradually gaining and losing it to in an attempt to finally get the hang of it hasn't been done before.
I'd disagree with the implication that it's automatically better because it hasn't been done before. Having Goku learn to master its abilities gradually is a potentially interesting concept, but not when it's implemented on 3 (THREE) separate occasions in the same tournament that all usually end in a failure to fully grasp the form. It's certainly not as exciting by the third time since, as a viewer, you know exactly what to expect and you're kinda just waiting for the completed version to show up so the real fight can begin.
The only reason people are so obsessed with the idea that Toei/Toriyama "dropped the ball" on Goku being responsible for the destruction of universes is entirely due to the anime playing it up so much initially. The manga reconciles it immediately, and nobody really bothers Goku about it except for Hit in jest. Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud, but again, it's really a chance for survival above all. If Goku didn't remind Zeno about the tournament, it's possible he would have forgotten about it until after Goku/Vegeta died, at which point Universe 7 likely wouldn't stand a chance.
I was expecting Toyotaro to draw a bonus page with Beerus using Hakai in front of Goku and Vegeta, even though I doubt a scene like that happening off-screen wouldn't feel forced.
Seems like he didn't. It's a plothole then! Both Goku and Vegeta know about Hakai, even though they never watched it on-screen and there's no mention when they learn about it off-screen. Toyotaro probably got confused with the anime, since Goku was there when Beerus erased Present Zamasu.
Dude, that's not a plothole. They just saw it offscreen, since they constantly train on his planet.
batistabus wrote:The only reason people are so obsessed with the idea that Toei/Toriyama "dropped the ball" on Goku being responsible for the destruction of universes is entirely due to the anime playing it up so much initially. The manga reconciles it immediately, and nobody really bothers Goku about it except for Hit in jest. Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud, but again, it's really a chance for survival above all. If Goku didn't remind Zeno about the tournament, it's possible he would have forgotten about it until after Goku/Vegeta died, at which point Universe 7 likely wouldn't stand a chance.
Yep. I'm fine with it either being or not being an element—just so long as it isn't presented as a major source of conflict then half-heartedly backed away from (depending on who's writing that week).
batistabus wrote:The only reason people are so obsessed with the idea that Toei/Toriyama "dropped the ball" on Goku being responsible for the destruction of universes is entirely due to the anime playing it up so much initially. The manga reconciles it immediately, and nobody really bothers Goku about it except for Hit in jest. Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud, but again, it's really a chance for survival above all. If Goku didn't remind Zeno about the tournament, it's possible he would have forgotten about it until after Goku/Vegeta died, at which point Universe 7 likely wouldn't stand a chance.
Yep. I'm fine with it either being or not being an element—just so long as it isn't presented as a major source of conflict then half-heartedly backed away from (depending on who's writing that week).
The anime also brought up another plot point and then dropped it. Remember how they couldn't sense Trio De Danger's ki? And said this will be a major factor in the ToP? It was never brought up again
Last edited by OLKv3 on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
batistabus wrote:The only reason people are so obsessed with the idea that Toei/Toriyama "dropped the ball" on Goku being responsible for the destruction of universes is entirely due to the anime playing it up so much initially. The manga reconciles it immediately, and nobody really bothers Goku about it except for Hit in jest. Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud, but again, it's really a chance for survival above all. If Goku didn't remind Zeno about the tournament, it's possible he would have forgotten about it until after Goku/Vegeta died, at which point Universe 7 likely wouldn't stand a chance.
Yep. I'm fine with it either being or not being an element—just so long as it isn't presented as a major source of conflict then half-heartedly backed away from (depending on who's writing that week).
The anime also brought up another plot point and then dropped it. Remember how they couldn't send Trio De Danger's ki? And said this will be a major factor in the ToP? It was never brought up again
Along with charging hakai energy,but this belong in the anime vs. manga thread.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
batistabus wrote:The only reason people are so obsessed with the idea that Toei/Toriyama "dropped the ball" on Goku being responsible for the destruction of universes is entirely due to the anime playing it up so much initially. The manga reconciles it immediately, and nobody really bothers Goku about it except for Hit in jest. Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud, but again, it's really a chance for survival above all. If Goku didn't remind Zeno about the tournament, it's possible he would have forgotten about it until after Goku/Vegeta died, at which point Universe 7 likely wouldn't stand a chance.
Yep. I'm fine with it either being or not being an element—just so long as it isn't presented as a major source of conflict then half-heartedly backed away from (depending on who's writing that week).
The anime also brought up another plot point and then dropped it. Remember how they couldn't sense Trio De Danger's ki? And said this will be a major factor in the ToP? It was never brought up again
Actually Goku in the ToP said he was having trouble with U9 because he couldn’t sense their ki.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
Bullza wrote:It's that what made Ultra Instinct better in the first place and separate of it from all the other forms.
Him just getting the Mastered Ultra Instinct from the start and that being his power has been done over and over. Him gradually gaining and losing it to in an attempt to finally get the hang of it hasn't been done before.
I'd disagree with the implication that it's automatically better because it hasn't been done before. Having Goku learn to master its abilities gradually is a potentially interesting concept, but not when it's implemented on 3 (THREE) separate occasions in the same tournament that all usually end in a failure to fully grasp the form. It's certainly not as exciting by the third time since, as a viewer, you know exactly what to expect and you're kinda just waiting for the completed version to show up so the real fight can begin.
Exactly. This was probably why EP129 wasn't as enjoyable as it could've been. Most of us were just waiting for Goku to go full Blanco the whole time.
Zephyr wrote:He absolutely is. Although Zeno is explained to have been dissatisfied with the number of Universes on his own, Goku definitely expedited the move to consolidate.
Goku speeded things up but the arc would happen eventually, which is what I was saying.
You should consider this as well:
batistabus wrote:Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud
So, Goku interacting with Zen'ou doesn't lead to anything in and of itself.
Zephyr wrote:He absolutely is. Although Zeno is explained to have been dissatisfied with the number of Universes on his own, Goku definitely expedited the move to consolidate.
Goku speeded things up but the arc would happen eventually, which is what I was saying.
You should consider this as well:
batistabus wrote:Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud
So, Goku interacting with Zen'ou doesn't lead to anything in and of itself.
The only reason the arc is happening is because there are 2 Zenos. That only happened because of Goku. So it's still his fault either way
Zephyr wrote:He absolutely is. Although Zeno is explained to have been dissatisfied with the number of Universes on his own, Goku definitely expedited the move to consolidate.
Goku speeded things up but the arc would happen eventually, which is what I was saying.
You should consider this as well:
batistabus wrote:Besides, if anyone is truly to blame for the Tournament of Power, it's Beerus and Champa. Zeno decided to hold the tournament because he was inspired by their petty feud
So, Goku interacting with Zen'ou doesn't lead to anything in and of itself.
The only reason the arc is happening is because there are 2 Zenos. That only happened because of Goku. So it's still his fault either way
The Future Trunks arc empirically proves and dispels the myth that the ToP would have occurred without Goku, at least within the 20 years which we saw into the future.
Without two Zenos and the idea of a tournament, none of this happens.
Hopefully the manga takes time to explain jiren and belmod's connection/ how he got so strong and what his wish is. The anime could tell us this stuff in episode 130 but considering the past two episodes have expounded nothing more on his story, I have doubts 130 will be anything other than Goku's swan song
ToshioWrites wrote:Hopefully the manga takes time to explain jiren and belmod's connection/ how he got so strong and what his wish is. The anime could tell us this stuff in episode 130 but considering the past two episodes have expounded nothing more on his story, I have doubts 130 will be anything other than Goku's swan song
The anime explained Belmod's connection to Jiren. He found out about Jiren's desire for power above all and was touched and impressed
ToshioWrites wrote:Hopefully the manga takes time to explain jiren and belmod's connection/ how he got so strong and what his wish is. The anime could tell us this stuff in episode 130 but considering the past two episodes have expounded nothing more on his story, I have doubts 130 will be anything other than Goku's swan song
The anime explained Belmod's connection to Jiren. He found out about Jiren's desire for power above all and was touched and impressed
That’s too basic for me atleast . Did belmod train him or what? What is their relationship like? I know more about ribrianne than the antagonist of this arc