Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

So, that much we agree. My point is when Boo is playing around he can trade blows evenly with Basil (pre-shining blaster mode), which seems close to Base Goku’s level in the actual tournament.

What about Base Goku being an even match for Bergamo? Wouldn't you think Bergamo was even stronger than the juiced up Basil seeing as he went last and they were pretty confident in him?

[Hugo Boss]

So, that much we agree. My point is when Boo is playing around he can trade blows evenly with Basil (pre-shining blaster mode), which seems close to Base Goku’s level in the actual tournament.

What about Base Goku being an even match for Bergamo? Wouldn't you think Bergamo was even stronger than the juiced up Basil seeing as he went last and they were pretty confident in him?

I don’t think so. Apart from his hidden ability, Bergamo doesn’t look like to be that much different from his brothers. His full power crusher mode is very strong though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My whole stance on this entire debate is that the other Universes' fighters' power levels can be a notch below that of our heroes, but their combat skill and abilities make up the difference and allow them to fight on even footing.

If you treat your power level as the most important part of the fight, then someone with a higher power level will always beat you, and vice versa if someone's power level is lower. If you treat the fight as a whole as important, then you can fight with someone with a higher power level, and vice versa if someone's power level is lower.

[Bullza]

I don’t think so. Apart from his hidden ability, Bergamo doesn’t look like to be that much different from his brothers. His full power crusher mode is very strong though.

Well Lavender was having trouble even hitting Gohan when he was concentrating after being blinded. Bergamo probably had the slight upper hand on Goku at first though.

As for Buu, Goku said that he had gotten stronger and faster after slimming down and Goku was keeping up with him just fine. He should be above Fat Buu.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So what would be the level of power of a supposed Mastered SSB Vegetto?

We know that only in SSB when concentrating a Final Kamehameha, was asked if he would have surpassed Beerus (by Shin, who does not have so much credibility). In MSSB, would he certainly have surpassed Beerus? Maybe all GoDs?

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think so. Apart from his hidden ability, Bergamo doesn’t look like to be that much different from his brothers. His full power crusher mode is very strong though.

Well Lavender was having trouble even hitting Gohan when he was concentrating after being blinded. Bergamo probably had the slight upper hand on Goku at first though.

As for Buu, Goku said that he had gotten stronger and faster after slimming down and Goku was keeping up with him just fine. He should be above Fat Buu.

I don’t think the brothers are exactly as strong. Bergamo has more bulk. Though, Lavender can still give trouble to Goku and Vegeta. He probably understimated Gohan’s senses at first and was hit by a few blows.

I’m almost sure some Japanese speaker from here told me Goku meant Fit Boo was faster, but not admittedly stronger than before. I will give that Goku is probably better than Boo when he is playing around, but not when Boo is serious. I agree they are similar to each other in normal conditions.

[ernesth100]

Makes me wonder how Boo would fair against certain fighters. Buu vs Beserker Kale? Anilaza? Jiren? Toppo? SSJ2 Caulifla? All would've been fairly interesting fights.

[Rally 07]

I’m almost sure some Japanese speaker from here told me Goku meant Fit Boo was faster, but not admittedly stronger than before.

But Boo really IS much stronger than before though. Keep in mind, he WAS able to keep up with Base form Gokou regardlessly if he somewhat playing around or even holding back. However Gokou didn't unnecessarily transform into Super Saiyan or anything, meaning he probably wasn't messing around much. AND Good Boo forced Gokou into a ring out in their sparring match too.
Then there's Gokou's level of power in his Base form. Well in Super episode 95, Freeza seen Base form Gokou as a potential rival and thought Gokou would fight him in Base form. From Freeza's perspective, he thought Gokou would think he was no stronger than he was in the Fukkatsu no F story arc. So hypothetically, Gokou's Base form can be Fukkatsu no F story arc Super Saiyan Blue level. So in theory, Good Boo could possibly be on that level. Meaning the 2 hours of nonstop training gave Boo a massive, godly buff. I mean, it's a reflection of Majin Boo's potential overall in my opinion.

[Rally 07]

Makes me wonder how Boo would fair against certain fighters. Buu vs Beserker Kale? Anilaza? Jiren? Toppo? SSJ2 Caulifla? All would've been fairly interesting fights.

Boo would probably fair well against Kale and Caulifla (Obviously not Kefla). Mainly because Kale and Caulifla seem pretty relative to Base form Gokou just like Boo. However Caulifla did sorta push Gokou into transforming into Super Saiyan 2. And then Mastered Berserker Kale is even stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. You may argue that Gokou was fatigued though but that's kinda out of the question as Gokou was fatigued even from fighting Jiren the first time. I mean, he spammed Kaioken x 20 repeatedly. And had a push session between him and Jiren with the Genkidama while using Kaioken x 10 and 20.
Back to Kale and Caulifla though. I honestly believe Kale could probably win against Boo, but Caulifla is a maybe. This is a good versus battle idea by the way. Current Good Boo vs. Kale and Caulifla. That's a very interesting versus battle.

But against Jiren, Toppo, Aniraza, or even Kefla and the stronger God tier fighters, Boo would likely be demolished. Although Boo's power can grow pretty fast albeit. Plus his power can spike and go beyond it's normal limitations. I was actually pretty excited about what Boo could bring to the Tournament of Power until Freeza came..... back into the picture.

[ernesth100]

Indeed, you also have to take Buu's unlimited energy and healing into account.

[dragon boss z]

So, that much we agree. My point is when Boo is playing around he can trade blows evenly with Basil (pre-shining blaster mode), which seems close to Base Goku’s level in the actual tournament.

Well base Goku was able to hold of all three trio de danger at once even with their good teamwork. Though Vegeta did randomly go ssj and then SSB. The writers just seem to like spamming transformations to make it more "epic".

[Zamasu55]

Umm.... Super has no filler.

Anything not apart of Toriyama's manuscript is essentially filler. Super even has filler characters from Z in it.

You have no argument from me that it makes no sense. I was proven wrong by BlueBasilisk's reponse just above. But honestly, even when I believed Gohan's statement referred to the Buu saga, I didn't think it made any sense. I was just taking it at face value.

I already knew of BlueBasilisk said, I just knew someone probably already mentioned it to you.
And my argument was a post prime Gohan shouldn't be able to stomp a prime Gohan, which is a complete logical argument.

The word filler doesn't exist in Super.
Copy Vegeta was mentioned during Vegeta's first fight with Goku Black and Hit literally uses his attacks from the second fight with Goku in the Tournament.

[dragon boss z]

The word filler doesn't exist in Super.
Copy Vegeta was mentioned during Vegeta's first fight with Goku Black and Hit literally uses his attacks from the second fight with Goku in the Tournament.

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying filler doesn't exist in DBZ because Pikkon showed up in the Buu arc. The Super anime is no more canon than the Z anime ever was.

[Noah]

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying filler doesn't exist in DBZ because Pikkon showed up in the Buu arc. The Super anime is no more canon than the Z anime ever was.

What really doesn't make sense is you thinking the manga is more 'canon' than the anime as the latter is a promotional product and the anime is not based on it.

[dragon boss z]

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying filler doesn't exist in DBZ because Pikkon showed up in the Buu arc. The Super anime is no more canon than the Z anime ever was.

What really doesn't make sense is you thinking the manga is more 'canon' than the anime as the latter is a promotional product and the anime is not based on it.

I don't think the manga is more canon than the anime... sooo nice straw man argument. I just said Toriyama is more involved with the manga and is closer to his outline. When it comes to Super there is no definitive canon.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying filler doesn't exist in DBZ because Pikkon showed up in the Buu arc. The Super anime is no more canon than the Z anime ever was.

What really doesn't make sense is you thinking the manga is more 'canon' than the anime as the latter is a promotional product and the anime is not based on it.

I don't think the manga is more canon than the anime... sooo nice straw man argument. I just said Toriyama is more involved with the manga and is closer to his outline. When it comes to Super there is no definitive canon.

I'd say that the more accurate statement would be that only the general narrative is absolutely canonical.

The details are up to which version you look at.

[Zamasu55]

The word filler doesn't exist in Super.
Copy Vegeta was mentioned during Vegeta's first fight with Goku Black and Hit literally uses his attacks from the second fight with Goku in the Tournament.

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying filler doesn't exist in DBZ because Pikkon showed up in the Buu arc. The Super anime is no more canon than the Z anime ever was.

Mate, Hit uses the same identical attacks he used on Goku and Vados even mentioned that.

[Lord Frieza]

Makes me wonder how Boo would fair against certain fighters. Buu vs Beserker Kale? Anilaza? Jiren? Toppo? SSJ2 Caulifla? All would've been fairly interesting fights.

I actually wondered if Basil's multi-hit, push back Shining Blaster attacks were developed to counter Buu? Would make for an intreasting rematch.

[Miracles]

If Jiren was being pressured by SSB KK (even if in general he was at an advantage), there is no reason for him to be able to swap punches against UI Goku without increasing his power

But anyway, Jiren was not using less against Vegeta power because he wanted to, Vegeta saw that he had slowed down the rhythm with the fright he had taken in the beginning of the fight (with Vegeta deflecting from his punches and hitting him) .
Vegeta just teased him and made Jiren realize that.

This is the same thing that Vegeta in the Saiyan saga did, saying that the Goku was not fighting him (Vegeta) as he fought against Nappa, which was clearly a provocation because Goku was at a disadvantage (the same with Jiren ).

It is good to remember that Jiren was using less power at that moment, but only Vegeta was able to understand his pattern of movement and hit him (while in round 2 Goku could not).

Regardless if Vegeta was provoking or taunting Jiren, it doesn't matter, cause his remark was still true.
Immediately after the blunt statement, Vegeta got bodied easily and even struggled to stay in bounds.
And the bold in your posts aren't factual, Jiren bodied Goku blue and kk blue in a dominating fashion.
Then casually blinked out KKX20 Blue Goku X Genki Dama! UI Goku was only stated to have ONLY "closed the gap in power" to THIS Jiren Vegeta was talking about.

I do not think you understood my point.

First, it was clear that Jiren was in a great advantage in the fight against Goku, I never denied it. The point is that there were moments of the fight in which he was pressured (more precisely spoken, at the beginning when he is thrown away by a punch from Goku SSB and when SSB KK hits a blow on him). And the UI is MUCH stronger than the SSB, so I assume against UI, Jiren needed to use more power (after all, previously Blue Goku was able to at least press).

And it's also a fact that Jiren was using less power against Vegea, again I never denied it. But this did not occur because Jiren was underestimating Vegeta or because Vegeta was weaker, but because he was very frightened by the fact that Saiyajin had deflected the blows and hit him with a punch. Then, Jiren slowed his pace, Vegeta realized this and teased him. But Goku in round 2 could not hit him anyway, while Vegeta did

I see what you mean. I agree, Vegeta knew Jiren wasn't putting out much strength. The reasons really don't matter but maybe it was due to him being surprised like you stated.
But we both agree with the story about Jiren's strength against Vegeta. Also, when SSB Goku knocks Jiren through the rubble with the punch, we see Jiren's face not strained at all but composed.
Just cause someone knocks you away in Dragonball doesn't mean they have an advantage.

[dragon boss z]

What really doesn't make sense is you thinking the manga is more 'canon' than the anime as the latter is a promotional product and the anime is not based on it.

I don't think the manga is more canon than the anime... sooo nice straw man argument. I just said Toriyama is more involved with the manga and is closer to his outline. When it comes to Super there is no definitive canon.

I'd say that the more accurate statement would be that only the general narrative is absolutely canonical.

The details are up to which version you look at.

Agreed.

The word filler doesn't exist in Super.
Copy Vegeta was mentioned during Vegeta's first fight with Goku Black and Hit literally uses his attacks from the second fight with Goku in the Tournament.

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying filler doesn't exist in DBZ because Pikkon showed up in the Buu arc. The Super anime is no more canon than the Z anime ever was.

Mate, Hit uses the same identical attacks he used on Goku and Vados even mentioned that.

Because everything in the anime is canon to the anime... Doesn't mean that those moves will show up in the manga version. Gregory is also in the anime of Super. Doesn't mean he will show up in the manga. Super is a continuation of dragon ball Kai. The BoG and RoF movies, and the Super manga are continuations of the manga. None of them are more canon than the others. The one thing that stands above as canon is the original dragon ball manga. Anything else could pretty much be changed at any point. Heck there is even talk of the end of the manga being retconned (I don't think it will). But that just proves that there is no solid canon. It is just a silly show (that we love), but it has never had that serious of a canon.