The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Captain Space]

I can't find the Toriyama interview but he states that he wished the Daizenshuu was around during the Manga's original serialization -as it would have helped him to write it.

Okay, that's...well, that's far from saying the the Daizenshuu's numbers are canon. All that means is "Toriyama has a bad memory and wishes he'd had a guide to help him remember stuff he himself came up with earlier in the manga's run (like Lunch)". Which isn't a revelation at all, really.

[h0kuten]

I can't find the Toriyama interview but he states that he wished the Daizenshuu was around during the Manga's original serialization -as it would have helped him to write it.

Okay, that's...well, that's far from saying the the Daizenshuu's numbers are canon. All that means is "Toriyama has a bad memory and wishes he'd had a guide to help him remember stuff he himself came up with earlier in the manga's run (like Lunch)". Which isn't a revelation at all, really.

If they weren't canon he would contradict them, he didn't. Thus they remain true. From a logical standpoint, that means they are also canon.

[Captain Space]

If they weren't canon he would contradict them, he didn't. Thus they remain true. From a logical standpoint, that means they are also canon.

That doesn't even remotely follow. He didn't contradict them because why would he? He doesn't care what exact number you slap on SSJ Goku, he'd stopped using those numbers almost entirely by that point. There's no reason he'd say "The guidebooks would have been really helpful because I'm forgetful! Oh, but also those numbers in them were invented by people other than me and don't 'count'" (like he or anyone working on DB cares about what "counts") regardless of whether it's true or not. Toriyama doesn't have to contradict everything for it to be non-canon. Like, say, movie 9 which fits perfectly into the timeline. Imagine if Toriyama had never said anything regarding the movies. Would that make it canon? No.

What it makes those numbers is not disproven, which is why I've said you're free to use them if you like. But that's a far cry from being the only option.

[h0kuten]

If they weren't canon he would contradict them, he didn't. Thus they remain true. From a logical standpoint, that means they are also canon.

That doesn't even remotely follow. He didn't contradict them because why would he? He doesn't care what exact number you slap on SSJ Goku, he'd stopped using those numbers almost entirely by that point. There's no reason he'd say "The guidebooks would have been really helpful because I'm forgetful! Oh, but also those numbers in them were invented by people other than me and don't 'count'" (like he or anyone working on DB cares about what "counts") regardless of whether it's true or not. Toriyama doesn't have to contradict everything for it to be non-canon. Like, say, movie 9 which fits perfectly into the timeline. Imagine if Toriyama had never said anything regarding the movies. Would that make it canon? No.

What it makes those numbers is not disproven, which is why I've said you're free to use them if you like. But that's a far cry from being the only option.

If Toriyama would use the books to write the Manga, but not, a random fan's speculation; which holds more merit?

[ahill1]

I do not agree with the number 3,000,000 for Goku base;It seems too low. Going only by the information given in the manga I would have Goku at least in 7,000,000 and 350,000,000 as SSJ.

Also I do not agree with the distance between SSJ Goku and Frieza (100%) - it is very large; the two are rivals.

So I prefer my own numbers instead of Daiz numbers; my numbers seem much more accurate.

[Darkprince410]

I can't find the Toriyama interview but he states that he wished the Daizenshuu was around during the Manga's original serialization -as it would have helped him to write it.

It wasn't an interview, but his introduction for Daizenshuu 7

This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I’m ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author, there’s lots of stuff even I don’t know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all.

Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fans.

–Akira Toriyama

I do not agree with the number 3,000,000 for Goku base;It seems too low. Going only by the information given in the manga I would have Goku at least in 7,000,000 and 350,000,000 as SSJ.

There's nothing in the manga though that suggests he's anywhere near that high. If you go by what's shown in the manga, a battle power of 3,000,000 is more than sufficient.

[h0kuten]

I do not agree with the number 3,000,000 for Goku base;It seems too low. Going only by the information given in the manga I would have Goku at least in 7,000,000 and 350,000,000 as SSJ.

Also I do not agree with the distance between SSJ Goku and Freeza (100%) - it is very large; the two are rivals.

So I prefer my own numbers instead of Daiz numbers; my numbers seem much more accurate.

King Kai said the fight was completely one sided.

[Captain Space]

If Toriyama would use the books to write the Manga, but not, a random fan's speculation; which holds more merit?

Note that I never said that 'fan speculation' is more accurate than the books. They are in fact both the same thing: A set of numbers, made up (using some fairly educated guesses at that*) by someone who did not write the story and therefore cannot possibly claim to be "right". The only difference is that one of those people happens to work for a company that makes books to do with Dragon Ball. This does not give them magical canon powers nor the ability to correctly guess what numbers that are never established in the manga are, just because they win some game of Seven Degrees of Akira Toriyama.

(*I mean some fan numbers aren't even remotely educated guesses but it's usually easy to tell when they haven't been properly thought out, I'm talking about the more sensible ones.)

This is pretty much apples and bananas. There is no possible way--

"I’m ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author, there’s lots of stuff even I don’t know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all."

--can be construed as some kind of irrefutable validation of the Daiz's numbers. He says there's stuff he doesn't know anymore. So, you know, he's saying that all the useful information about past plotlines and the mere existence of characters he'd have otherwise forgotten about (again, Lunch); there's really no way that's saying that he'd have used those numbers. Since they were mostly never written by him in the first place so it's literally impossible for him to have forgotten them.

King Kai said the fight was completely one sided.

I suspect this line might be anime-only; if it is in the manga, I'm pretty sure he must've said it at one of the times when the fight was one-sided (when Goku was letting Freeza smack him around to test his strength, or at the end when Freeza was losing his power). Because when they were both still at full power and actually giving it their all, it was very clearly not one-sided.

[LightBing]

SSJG2 Future Gohan vs Imperfect Cell (After absorbing people)

Hypothetical SSJ Gohan (Android Arc) vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Super Perfect Cell assimilates(Namekian Fusion) Piccolo (Cell Games), he then runs the gauntlet healing after every opponent:

SSJ2 Kid Gohan
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta
Majin Boo
Pure Boo
SSJ3 Goku
Super Boo
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan

[Captain Space]

SSJG1 Future Gohan vs Imperfect Cell (After absorbing people)

Hypothetical SSJ Gohan (Android Arc) vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Super Perfect Cell assimilates(Namekian Fusion) Piccolo (Cell Games), he then runs the gauntlet healing after every opponent:

SSJ2 Kid Gohan
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta
Majin Boo
Pure Boo
SSJ3 Goku
Super Boo
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan

Like...Super Saiyan God? Or...Super Saiyan Grade 1? Isn't that just regular Super Saiyan? I dunno, maybe just a typo and you meant Grade 2, in which case Gohan probably wins (he'd have trouble with Semi-Perfect Cell though).

I didn't see Gohan as too far behind Piccolo at that point, so Gohan.

There's no mystical link between them like with Piccolo and Kami, so it's probably more like the fusion with Nail...hmm, he'd probably end up right at the top end of the SSJ2 spectrum, so he'd beat Kid Gohan, just barely win against Majin Vegeta and then get soundly beaten by Buu.

[LightBing]

SSJG1 Future Gohan vs Imperfect Cell (After absorbing people)

Hypothetical SSJ Gohan (Android Arc) vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Super Perfect Cell assimilates(Namekian Fusion) Piccolo (Cell Games), he then runs the gauntlet healing after every opponent:

SSJ2 Kid Gohan
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta
Majin Boo
Pure Boo
SSJ3 Goku
Super Boo
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan

Like...Super Saiyan God? Or...Super Saiyan Grade 1? Isn't that just regular Super Saiyan? I dunno, maybe just a typo and you meant Grade 2, in which case Gohan probably wins (he'd have trouble with Semi-Perfect Cell though).

I didn't see Gohan as too far behind Piccolo at that point, so Gohan.

There's no mystical link between them like with Piccolo and Kami, so it's probably more like the fusion with Nail...hmm, he'd probably end up right at the top end of the SSJ2 spectrum, so he'd beat Kid Gohan, just barely win against Majin Vegeta and then get soundly beaten by Buu.

I edited the post, It's Super Saiyan Grade 2.

[Captain Space]

Okay, sorry. (Guess my response to who I think would win stands.)

[h0kuten]

If Toriyama would use the books to write the Manga, but not, a random fan's speculation; which holds more merit?

Note that I never said that 'fan speculation' is more accurate than the books. They are in fact both the same thing: A set of numbers, made up (using some fairly educated guesses at that*) by someone who did not write the story and therefore cannot possibly claim to be "right". The only difference is that one of those people happens to work for a company that makes books to do with Dragon Ball. This does not give them magical canon powers nor the ability to correctly guess what numbers that are never established in the manga are, just because they win some game of Seven Degrees of Akira Toriyama.

(*I mean some fan numbers aren't even remotely educated guesses but it's usually easy to tell when they haven't been properly thought out, I'm talking about the more sensible ones.)

This is pretty much apples and bananas. There is no possible way--

"I’m ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author, there’s lots of stuff even I don’t know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all."

--can be construed as some kind of irrefutable validation of the Daiz's numbers. He says there's stuff he doesn't know anymore. So, you know, he's saying that all the useful information about past plotlines and the mere existence of characters he'd have otherwise forgotten about (again, Lunch); there's really no way that's saying that he'd have used those numbers. Since they were mostly never written by him in the first place so it's literally impossible for him to have forgotten them.

King Kai said the fight was completely one sided.

I suspect this line might be anime-only; if it is in the manga, I'm pretty sure he must've said it at one of the times when the fight was one-sided (when Goku was letting Freeza smack him around to test his strength, or at the end when Freeza was losing his power). Because when they were both still at full power and actually giving it their all, it was very clearly not one-sided.

This is King Kai's summary regarding the fight after it's finished and not during the fight; like when Goku is letting Freeza smack him around to test his strength.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: "Son Goku had done well...With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength...But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek
itself out..."

The 150 and 120 million numbers still hold.

Fan speculation and Toriyama approved books are in fact not the same thing.

[Captain Space]

This is King Kai's summary regarding the fight after it's finished and not during the fight; like when Goku is letting Freeza smack him around to test his strength.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: "Son Goku had done well...With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength...But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek
itself out..."

The 150 and 120 million numbers still hold.

Fan speculation and Toriyama approved books are in fact not the same thing.

Just looked it up (now I know what chapter it's from), and found the line. He says it when he thinks Namek blew up, when Freeza's still at 50% and only just threw his Namek-destroying attack, so yeah, of course Goku's stronger at that point. So...sorry, this whole point of yours is completely void.

The fact that Toriyama thinks it would've been useful to have an encyclopaedia to remind him of stuff while writing the manga, and may have glanced over the book to go, "Yeah, those sure are some numbers and that sure is a picture of Goku," does not make those numbers all completely approved by him. They basically are fan-speculation, the 'fan' in question just happens to have a job making books related to manga/anime series'.

[Blackstripe]

SSGSS Buukuu (Basically, Super Buu with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Gokuu+Piccolo for intelligence absorbed) vs Mastered Golden Freeza (same level of power as in RoF, but no longer has stamina problems).

[ekrolo2]

SSGSS Buukuu (Basically, Super Buu with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Gokuu+Piccolo for intelligence absorbed) vs Mastered Golden Freeza (same level of power as in RoF, but no longer has stamina problems).

Buukuu owns effortlessly with or without Bluper.

[ahill1]

I can't find the Toriyama interview but he states that he wished the Daizenshuu was around during the Manga's original serialization -as it would have helped him to write it.

It wasn't an interview, but his introduction for Daizenshuu 7

This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I’m ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author, there’s lots of stuff even I don’t know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all.

Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fans.

–Akira Toriyama

I do not agree with the number 3,000,000 for Goku base;It seems too low. Going only by the information given in the manga I would have Goku at least in 7,000,000 and 350,000,000 as SSJ.

There's nothing in the manga though that suggests he's anywhere near that high. If you go by what's shown in the manga, a battle power of 3,000,000 is more than sufficient.

Yeah there's ---- Goku base = Freeza(speedup) >>> Vegeta(post dende zenkai) = Freeza final form(initial) >>> Freeza(3rd form) >> Piccolo(w/o weights) > Freeza 2nd form(full power) > Piccolo(weighted) > Freeza 2nd form(vs gohan) > Freeza 2nd form(initial) > 1,000,000.

As Goku will only have 3 million? As Goku will only have 3 million? You would have to nerfing the characters as hell.

[h0kuten]

Actually its:

[quote]
Frieza (Final Form Powered Up) >= Goku (Namek) >>> Vegeta (Namek) >= Frieza (Final Form Initial) >> 3rd Form Frieza >= Gohan (Enraged) >> Piccolo (Full Power) >= Frieza 2nd Form > Gohan (Enraged) >>>> Goku (Kaio-Kenx10)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

There's nothing in the manga though that suggests he's anywhere near that high. If you go by what's shown in the manga, a battle power of 3,000,000 is more than sufficient.

Freeza's 2nd form starts off over one million. He powers up after Gohan beats him up and Piccolo says Freeza's power jumped astoundingly. Piccolo comes and has a slight advantage over that form, then Freeza powers up in his 2nd form again and has a slight lead on Piccolo. Piccolo takes off his weights, Freeza transforms again. 3rd form Freeza is easily stomping Piccolo. Freeza's initial true form blows his 3rd form out of the water, nobody besides Vegeta can now follow Freeza's movements. Freeza kicks it up a notch and is now way stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is around that level.

Freeza (true form; speed up) >= Base Goku >>> Base Vegeta ~ Freeza (true form; initial) >/>> Freeza (3rd form) >> Piccolo >= Freeza (2nd form) >= Piccolo (weighted) >= Freeza (2nd form; powered up) >> Freeza (2nd form; initial; over 1 million)

Now, if somebody wants to keep Goku at 3 million, that's fine, but to say someone has to believe the guidebook and there's no reason to believe otherwise is wrong. There's clearly big jumps in power at this point in the story. Almost every power-up Freeza does after already being over 1 million is an "astounding" jump.

[h0kuten]

There's nothing in the manga though that suggests he's anywhere near that high. If you go by what's shown in the manga, a battle power of 3,000,000 is more than sufficient.

Freeza's 2nd form starts off over one million. He powers up after Gohan beats him up and Piccolo says Freeza's power jumped astoundingly. Piccolo comes and has a slight advantage over that form, then Freeza powers up in his 2nd form again and has a slight lead on Piccolo. Piccolo takes off his weights, Freeza transforms again. 3rd form Freeza is easily stomping Piccolo. Freeza's initial true form blows his 3rd form out of the water, nobody besides Vegeta can now follow Freeza's movements. Freeza kicks it up a notch and is now way stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is around that level.

Freeza (true form; speed up) >= Base Goku >>> Base Vegeta ~ Freeza (true form; initial) >/>> Freeza (3rd form) >> Piccolo >= Freeza (2nd form) >= Piccolo (weighted) >= Freeza (2nd form; powered up) >> Freeza (2nd form; initial; over 1 million)

Now, if somebody wants to keep Goku at 3 million, that's fine, but to say someone has to believe the guidebook and there's no reason to believe otherwise is wrong. There's clearly big jumps in power at this point in the story. Almost every power-up Freeza does after already being over 1 million is an "astounding" jump.

Guide-books hold more merit than fan speculation.