Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

So, Dyspo's speed makes him formidable. With out, his strikes aren't strong, but Super Maximum Light Speed Mode still makes Blue tier

Final form Frieza should be SSG level since he was able to hold his own against Dypso in hand to hand and Ultimate Gohan is stronger than that

He literally can't be SSG tier.

That would mean base Goku in RoF was SSG tier.

There's also him needing Golden to tank an attack from a weakened SS2 Cabba.

This may of been the original intention. I believe the movie guide said Goku's base retained god power and could fight on the level of a god in base mode, correct me if I'm wrong. And dragon ball heros called the form saiyan beyond god.
This seemed to be retconned in Super, but that seems to be because Toriyama decided he didn't want them to absorb SSG power into their base as in the Super manga this never happened.

As of now I see it like this
base Buu saga Goku<base U6 saiyans<ssj universe 6 saiyans<=>ssj3 Goku buu saga<ssj2 universe 6 saiyans<=final form Frieza<=>current full power base Goku<buff frieza<=>ssj Goku<golden Frieza=ssb Goku

Why do people keep talking like Dyspo and his speed are separate? Dyspo's speed is a part of his powerset. He's SSJB overall. There is no "dyspo without his speed is below SSJG but SSJB level with it"

There is a difference, as Burter had a faster speed than the other Ginyu force members who had the same power level as him and Goku was faster than Ginyu even though Ginyu was stronger. Dyspo would lose in an arm wrestle to mystic Gohan, Golden Frieza, SSB Goku, ect.

[Doctor.]

So, Dyspo's speed makes him formidable. With out, his strikes aren't strong, but Super Maximum Light Speed Mode still makes Blue tier

Final form Frieza should be SSG level since he was able to hold his own against Dypso in hand to hand and Ultimate Gohan is stronger than that

He literally can't be SSG tier.

That would mean base Goku in RoF was SSG tier.

There's also him needing Golden to tank an attack from a weakened SS2 Cabba.

Yes, base Goku absorbed SSG into his base in RoF. This is old news. It's why the only transformation he uses is SSB.

More and more proof the retcon theory is legitimate.

[Freezerbaby]

So base on freeza´s performance against Dyspo, can we state that he is stronger than Hit?

[PushoverMediaCritic]

So base on freeza´s performance against Dyspo, can we state that he is stronger than Hit?

Golden Freeza, in terms of pure Power Level? Sure.

[Freezerbaby]

So base on freeza´s performance against Dyspo, can we state that he is stronger than Hit?

Golden Freeza, in terms of pure Power Level? Sure.

Also in terms of who would win in a fight, Hit needed to outsmart Dyspo to counter-attack his speed, Freeza easily saw through dyspo´s movements, and when he went golden dyspo had to resort to his super maximum light speed mode, which he didn´t saw fit to use against Hit.

I´ve always thought that freeza could never match Hit´s timeskip technique, but if one thing this arc has made it clear is that freeza is more of a smarter fighter than we earlier thought.

[OLKv3]

Has anyone aside from Black actually had a Zenkai in Super? I see a few people say that but I don't recall anything like that being said.

In the manga they even said that Goku and Vegeta couldn't get Zenkais unlike Black.

Future Trunks

[ekrolo2]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

[Cursemark505]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

Freeza specifically said that using Golden on Cabba was a waste. He didn't need to do anything.

[ekrolo2]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

Freeza specifically said that using Golden on Cabba was a waste. He didn't need to do anything.

Yeah, so why is he using it if his regular form should be significantly above the level required to send Cabba flying out the ring?

[Cursemark505]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

Freeza specifically said that using Golden on Cabba was a waste. He didn't need to do anything.

Yeah, so why is he using it if his regular form should be significantly above the level required to send Cabba flying out the ring?

He probably just did it on a whim which is why he referred to it as a waste. He didn't even bother trying to dodge or block that attack. We actually saw it hit him in his base form.

He confidently tried to fight ssj2 Caulifla & Berserker Kale in base. Why would he do that if he needed Golden against someone weaker than them?

[ekrolo2]

Freeza specifically said that using Golden on Cabba was a waste. He didn't need to do anything.

Yeah, so why is he using it if his regular form should be significantly above the level required to send Cabba flying out the ring?

He probably just did it on a whim which is why he referred to it as a waste. He didn't even bother trying to dodge or block that attack. We actually saw it hit him in his base form.

He confidently tried to fight ssj2 Caulifla & Berserker Kale in base. Why would he do that if he needed Golden against someone weaker than them?

Freeza's supposed to be smarter now and very self concious about his stamina so really, this feels just like more of Super having people transform for the sake of cool presentation. This is a recurring thing in Super where the story writes or implies one thing but the presentation doesn't follow through.

[perucho1990]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

Because most characters have gotten boosts since the TV Special.

Caulifla for example in episode 113-114 is much stronger than episode 100, given that Goku got stronger after the TV special, I rank her close to pre UI SSJG Goku, and that would also mean Berserker Kale was always Blue tier(which is why Jiren fought her).

[ekrolo2]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

Because most characters have gotten boosts since the TV Special.

Caulifla for example in episode 113-114 is much stronger than episode 100, given that Goku got stronger after the TV special, I rank her close to pre UI SSJG Goku, and that would also mean Berserker Kale was always Blue tier(why was Jiren fought her).

So Caulifla pretty much does nothing for a while and she's ridiculously more powerful because of it? Sounds just as sound of an explanation as Goku restoring his stamina by fighting as hard as he can at any given opportunity.

Also, a tired SSG Goku no sells Kale's point blank ki blast and totally whoops Caulifla as an SS2, after his SS2 self was able to stalemate her so the idea either of them are close to SSG tier is preposterous.

[perucho1990]

So Caulifla pretty much does nothing for a while and she's ridiculously more powerful because of it? Sounds just as sound of an explanation as Goku restoring his stamina by fighting as hard as he can at any given opportunity.

Also, a tired SSG Goku no sells Kale's point blank ki blast and totally whoops Caulifla as an SS2, after his SS2 self was able to stalemate her so the idea either of them are close to SSG tier is preposterous.

Toei logic at its finest, look a Hit for example:

If he was as strong as his Episode 104 self, Jiren shouldve been trashed him faster than Pre UI Kaioken Goku.

Going by feats, Saonel and Pirina are stronger than Episode 104 Hit due to overwhelming Gohan, who is now equal to that version of Hit too.

[Doctor.]

SSG tier Freeza is a problem mostly because of Cabba, why would he need to use Golden if Cabba as an SS2 should've been way inferior to him?

Freeza specifically said that using Golden on Cabba was a waste. He didn't need to do anything.

Yeah, so why is he using it if his regular form should be significantly above the level required to send Cabba flying out the ring?

Same reason Goku pulls out SSB against literally everyone. I'm sure he didn't need to go SSB to kick Ribrianne in #109 and yet that's what he did. Every other feat points to Freeza being SSG tier in base.

[ekrolo2]

So Caulifla pretty much does nothing for a while and she's ridiculously more powerful because of it? Sounds just as sound of an explanation as Goku restoring his stamina by fighting as hard as he can at any given opportunity.

Also, a tired SSG Goku no sells Kale's point blank ki blast and totally whoops Caulifla as an SS2, after his SS2 self was able to stalemate her so the idea either of them are close to SSG tier is preposterous.

Toei logic at its finest, look a Hit for example:

If he was as strong as his Episode 104 self, Jiren shouldve been trashed him faster than Pre UI Kaioken Goku.

Going by feats, Saonel and Pirina are stronger than Episode 104 Hit due to overwhelming Gohan, who is now equal to that version of Hit too.

That's the presentation problem with Super, just look at Jiren: they can't make up their minds if his fighting style is a more generic DB fighter one or if he's an unstoppable machine who will smash his opportunity out of the ring immediately, often oscillating between the two in a matter of minutes. Just look at how he's apparently intent to take Kale out but he can't be arsed to ACTUALLY blast her out of the ring.

[Bullza]

I definitely don't think that Final Form Frieza is Super Saiyan God level. He was only supposed to be around Base level originally.

[Doctor.]

I definitely don't think that Final Form Frieza is Super Saiyan God level. He was only supposed to be around Base level originally.

Yes, he was around a base Goku that was supposed to be as strong as his Super Saiyan God self from BoG, what's the issue here?

[Hakaishin Liquir]

So Caulifla pretty much does nothing for a while and she's ridiculously more powerful because of it? Sounds just as sound of an explanation as Goku restoring his stamina by fighting as hard as he can at any given opportunity.

Also, a tired SSG Goku no sells Kale's point blank ki blast and totally whoops Caulifla as an SS2, after his SS2 self was able to stalemate her so the idea either of them are close to SSG tier is preposterous.

Toei logic at its finest, look a Hit for example:

If he was as strong as his Episode 104 self, Jiren shouldve been trashed him faster than Pre UI Kaioken Goku.

Going by feats, Saonel and Pirina are stronger than Episode 104 Hit due to overwhelming Gohan, who is now equal to that version of Hit too.

Hit only had trouble in 104 with Dyspo because Dyspo knew about Hit's secret techniques while Hit knew nothing about Dyspo's secret technique. Once Hit learned Dyspo's ability and they were both on an even playing field, Hit destroyed him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a41XJtD-GL4

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

We could make a compromise and say that base Goku and Final Form Freeza are comparable like it was established in Battle of Gods.

My interpretation has been that Goku, although inferior to Final Form Freeza's full power at the time, would've been able to defeat him with a mere regular Kaio-ken and be able to put up a decent fight without that 2x multiplication.

If we want to really stretch it, we could say that the base Saiyans and Freeza are comparable to how they were back on Namek; that is, that Freeza was a slight notch below Super Saiyan, but the base Saiyans could potentially give his FInal Form something of a fight.

Or we could just say that the fights aren't entirely predicated on exactly how strong any given fighter is, just that they're strong in general.