Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Doctor.]

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

There's a difference. Goku fought Freeza fresh and weakening and nearly won. Vegeta fought Freeza while weakened and still losing power and nearly won. Could Vegeta have done the same as Goku and fought fresh Freeza, probably. However he didn't. He looks even worse because he couldn't put a stop to a weakened Freeza, while Goku was about to put a stop to a fresh Freeza. Whis did say Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's still is in this movie.

I'm sure Whis just said that Vegeta wants to be one step ahead of Goku.

Regardless, we haven't seen the movie yet to access what kind of difficulty both had against Freeza. It's possible that Vegeta had no trouble against him at all, which would certainly put him at Goku's level.

[Dyno]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

I think it gets blue only when Kakarot "fuses" Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God powers, or something like that.

[KaiserNeko]

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

There's a difference. Goku fought Freeza fresh and weakening and nearly won. Vegeta fought Freeza while weakened and still losing power and nearly won. Could Vegeta have done the same as Goku and fought fresh Freeza, probably. However he didn't. He looks even worse because he couldn't put a stop to a weakened Freeza, while Goku was about to put a stop to a fresh Freeza. Whis did say Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's still is in this movie.

I'm sorry but how exactly do you know Goku almost nearly won? Where was that ever stated? All I've seen was that Goku was planning on taking advantage of Freeza losing power and stamina (which implies he was actually losing) in order to gain the upper hand and then Sorbet interfered.

Can it not be inferred, then, that Sorbet's interference was a necessity for Freeza to win? Otherwise, why would he involve himself in the fight?

[Lord Beerus]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

Apparently blue ain't such a weak colour now . So Toriyama seemingly changed his mind on both Vegeta and the colour blue.

Blue is seen as a weak colour? That's news to me.

[Birusu16]

And it seemed Freeza wasnt confident that he could beat goku since obviously he needed help from sorbet.

Considering he was constantly losing power and stamina, that's not surprising. And we don't even know if Freeza even asked for Sorbet's help. All we know is Sorbet interfered.

Thats his own weakness therefore he knew he could not maintain it meaning he cannot beat goku thus enter sorbet, theres a high chance freeza ordered him to do so since after the dmg had been done sorbet says "it went according to the stategy" thus vegeta reacting and kills sorbet.

It is his own weakness, but it doesn't mean Goku was ever capable of beating a full power Freeza, which was my point all along. Goku didn't fight and beat a 100% Freeza and neither did Vegeta. And last I checked that line from Sorbet was fake.

[fadeddreams5]

I hate that they chose blue for the new SSJ. Why not combine the yellow from SSJ with the red from SSJG. They could have yellow hair with orange or red highlights, red pupil less eyes, and flaming aura. >_>

[Birusu16]

Can it not be inferred, then, that Sorbet's interference was a necessity for Freeza to win? Otherwise, why would he involve himself in the fight?

At that point it probably was because as I've been saying, Freeza was losing power and stamina. I'm not arguing about whether or not this was a fair fight. I'm arguing the belief that Goku would be capable of beating a 100% Freeza, which clearly isn't the case considering he had to take advantage of the fact that Freeza was continuously losing stamina and power.

[Lord Beerus]

I hate that they chose blue for the new SSJ. Why not combine the yellow from SSJ with the red from SSJG. They could have yellow hair with orange or red highlights, red pupil less eyes, and flaming aura. >_>

I think Toriyama chose blue just so that it would stick out more.

[batistabus]

It is his own weakness, but it doesn't mean Goku was ever capable of beating a full power Freeza, which was my point all along. Goku didn't fight and beat a 100% Freeza and neither did Vegeta. And last I checked that line from Sorbet was fake.

Okay. If Freeza challenged Goku/Vegeta to a one-punch contest, then maybe Freeza would've won. If Goku could charge up a Genki Dama for 24 hours straight, then maybe he could use it to defeat Whis. If Trunks didn't lose speed when transforming into his really bulky form, then maybe he could've defeated Cell. None of this actually amounts to anything, and I'm not really sure why you're so insistent on making this point.

[Sora Saiyan]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

Apparently blue ain't such a weak colour now . So Toriyama seemingly changed his mind on both Vegeta and the colour blue.

Blue is seen as a weak colour? That's news to me.

It's just something Toriyama mentioned before when he spoke about choosing the colour for SSJG. He said Red looks powerful and mentioned blue looking weak or something to that effect.

[Doctor.]

I like that theory someone came up with (I apologize for not remembering your name) that the different Super Saiyan colours are imitating the intensity of fire and the various types of stars. Yellow then red then blue. I'm not sure that Toriyama was aware of this and he might dismiss this and just say something akin to "Oh, well, I think blue looked better! (laughs)" in an interview in the future, but I like this explanation for now.

[dbzfan7]

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

There's a difference. Goku fought Freeza fresh and weakening and nearly won. Vegeta fought Freeza while weakened and still losing power and nearly won. Could Vegeta have done the same as Goku and fought fresh Freeza, probably. However he didn't. He looks even worse because he couldn't put a stop to a weakened Freeza, while Goku was about to put a stop to a fresh Freeza. Whis did say Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's still is in this movie.

I'm sorry but how exactly do you know Goku almost nearly won? Where was that ever stated? All I've seen was that Goku was planning on taking advantage of Freeza losing power and stamina (which implies he was actually losing) in order to gain the upper hand and then Sorbet interfered.

Well the info says Goku wins, then loses, then wins. We know Vegeta came closer apparently to winning but then loses. Maybe I jumped the gun a bit, but it seems if it were not for Sorbet, Goku wouldn't have fallen. I already said it's likely if Vegeta were in the same place as Goku, he'd probably done about as well as Goku. But for comparisons sake Goku had the better showing. He fought and tangled with Freeza at his best, only to have Sorbet help Freeza win. Vegeta tangled with a tired Freeza, only to lose cause Freeza played it smart.

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

There's a difference. Goku fought Freeza fresh and weakening and nearly won. Vegeta fought Freeza while weakened and still losing power and nearly won. Could Vegeta have done the same as Goku and fought fresh Freeza, probably. However he didn't. He looks even worse because he couldn't put a stop to a weakened Freeza, while Goku was about to put a stop to a fresh Freeza. Whis did say Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's still is in this movie.

I'm sure Whis just said that Vegeta wants to be one step ahead of Goku.

Regardless, we haven't seen the movie yet to access what kind of difficulty both had against Freeza. It's possible that Vegeta had no trouble against him at all, which would certainly put him at Goku's level.

Pretty sure he said Goku was one step ahead as Goku rests his body, and Vegeta keeps himself too tense. Which in turn slows Vegeta down.

[Kamiccolo9]

I like that theory someone came up with (I apologize for not remembering your name) that the different Super Saiyan colours are imitating the intensity of fire and the various types of stars. Yellow then red then blue. I'm not sure that Toriyama was aware of this and he might dismiss this and just say something akin to "Oh, well, I think blue looked better! (laughs)" in an interview in the future, but I like this explanation for now.

I could live with this. I doubt it's true, but it's a cool theory.

[batistabus]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

Apparently blue ain't such a weak colour now . So Toriyama seemingly changed his mind on both Vegeta and the colour blue.

Probably the opposite. He chose that color for this form BECAUSE he thought it looked tranquil and weak. Because he's...you know...Toriyama.

[Birusu16]

It is his own weakness, but it doesn't mean Goku was ever capable of beating a full power Freeza, which was my point all along. Goku didn't fight and beat a 100% Freeza and neither did Vegeta. And last I checked that line from Sorbet was fake.

Okay. If Freeza challenged Goku/Vegeta to a one-punch contest, then maybe Freeza would've won. If Goku could charge up a Genki Dama for 24 hours straight, then maybe he could use it to defeat Whis. If Trunks didn't lose speed when transforming into his really bulky form, then maybe he could've defeated Cell. None of this actually amounts to anything, and I'm not really sure why you're so insistent on making this point.

Because people seem to want to insist that Goku looks a hell of a lot better for fighting and winning against a 100% Freeza (which never actually happens) than Vegeta for fighting and winning against a weakened Freeza and that's simply not the case at all.

[SansrivaaL]

It is his own weakness, but it doesn't mean Goku was ever capable of beating a full power Freeza, which was my point all along. Goku didn't fight and beat a 100% Freeza and neither did Vegeta. And last I checked that line from Sorbet was fake.

That line was actually legit, the fake part about it was that it was used in the end credits, its used after he sucessfully interfered with Goku vs Frieza fight.
That doesnt prove it, in a fight Goku is a genius therefore using every advantage u can in a fight is how AT shows he evolves and has experience, that Goku also uses his head in a fight, that actually proves it cuz if that did continue Goku would have won in the end but the interference being planned gave Frieza away.

[Lord Beerus]

I like that theory someone came up with (I apologize for not remembering your name) that the different Super Saiyan colours are imitating the intensity of fire and the various types of stars. Yellow then red then blue. I'm not sure that Toriyama was aware of this and he might dismiss this and just say something akin to "Oh, well, I think blue looked better! (laughs)" in an interview in the future, but I like this explanation for now.

Wow. That is certainly a really good theory when you think about it.

[bubibartra]

In my view, both lose, Goku finally hits because Whiss decides its.. but Vegeta have been the same if Whiss decides...

the winner is Whiss

The strength of Vegeta and Goku are similar, both had mistakes. Goku has learned his lesson, next lesson surely is for Vegeta. Freezer was just a sparring that Whiss could have undone when he wanted, but Whiss used Freezer.

This is what I do not like. Freezer is a great character , here no matter Freezer, could have been Celula , it was a lesson to Whiss´ pupils. Nothing more .

[ShadowWolf87]

You seem to miss the fact that no one's saying that Goku brute forced Freeza, He had to fight smart and wear him out.

The reason this is even a conversation is from the contextual belief that Goku got stomped by Freeza but Vegeta overpowered him from pretty much the start of their fight. People are trying to utilize this to argue Vegeta has surpassed Goku, fought better than Goku, could have taken Freeza at full power, etc.

You're ignoring context for the sake of a fight over semantics.

No. You interfered in an argument that didn't concern you in the first place. What you're talking about wasn't what I was discussing in anyway. What I was discussing was the belief that Goku managed to fight and beat a fully powered Freeza while Vegeta didn't when that wasn't even remotely the case. He had to rely on exploiting a weakness in order to gain the advantage just like Freeza had to against Vegeta. Goku wasn't stronger than Freeza just like Freeza wasn't stronger than Vegeta when he fought him despite both gaining the upper through exploiting weaknesses.

No one said Goku managed to beat anything. Just that he would have after facing him at 100%. People are speaking in forums as if Goku gets straight-up stomped and then Vegeta steps in and wins where he couldn't. Simply not the case. Goku would indeed have won that fight.

And yes, it's still valid. Goku faced Freeza at 100%. Goku had to endure during that fight which started with Freeza at 100%. The drain happened in-combat. It's not like some video game fight where he had to lure him in front of convenient objects that sapped his power, he forced him to burn it as they fought.

So yes, it is legitimate to say Goku can and would have won that fight. Vegeta we simply cannot measure as we don't have him facing Freeza until after he'd been significantly tired out by Goku.

[Sora Saiyan]

Re: Star SSJ theory
That star theory is pretty cool, but I'm pretty sure a red star is cooler than a yellow.