Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
dbzfan7 wrote:Well the info says Goku wins, then loses, then wins. We know Vegeta came closer apparently to winning but then loses. Maybe I jumped the gun a bit, but it seems if it were not for Sorbet, Goku wouldn't have fallen. I already said it's likely if Vegeta were in the same place as Goku, he'd probably done about as well as Goku. But for comparisons sake Goku had the better showing. He fought and tangled with Freeza at his best, only to have Sorbet help Freeza win. Vegeta tangled with a tired Freeza, only to lose cause Freeza played it smart.
Goku beats 4th form Freeza. Loses to Golden Freeza. Then has time reversed by Whis and kills Freeza. What point are you trying to make here? Nothing suggests Goku was on the verge of winning in his first fight with Freeza. It's actually implied he was losing and then needed to take advantage of Freeza's weakness in order to gain the upper hand. Would Goku have possibly won had it not been for Sorbet? Yes, but nothing indicates he was close to winning.
And I really don't see how Goku has a better showing if Vegeta did indeed come closer to winning than Goku. Yes, Goku fought a more fresh Freeza while Vegeta fought a less than fresh one, but if Goku didn't come as close to winning as Vegeta then they pretty much cancel each other out and they both have a pretty similar showing.
Are people still excited over this movie? Or after this whole summary and infos everyone just give up and don't want anymore? Personally I'm still excited to watch and have some good laughs
English is not my main language. Sorry if I make a mistake.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:You seem to miss the fact that no one's saying that Goku brute forced Freeza, He had to fight smart and wear him out.
The reason this is even a conversation is from the contextual belief that Goku got stomped by Freeza but Vegeta overpowered him from pretty much the start of their fight. People are trying to utilize this to argue Vegeta has surpassed Goku, fought better than Goku, could have taken Freeza at full power, etc.
You're ignoring context for the sake of a fight over semantics.
No. You interfered in an argument that didn't concern you in the first place. What you're talking about wasn't what I was discussing in anyway. What I was discussing was the belief that Goku managed to fight and beat a fully powered Freeza while Vegeta didn't when that wasn't even remotely the case. He had to rely on exploiting a weakness in order to gain the advantage just like Freeza had to against Vegeta. Goku wasn't stronger than Freeza just like Freeza wasn't stronger than Vegeta when he fought him despite both gaining the upper through exploiting weaknesses.
No one said Goku managed to beat anything. Just that he would have after facing him at 100%. People are speaking in forums as if Goku gets straight-up stomped and then Vegeta steps in and wins where he couldn't. Simply not the case. Goku would indeed have won that fight.
And yes, it's still valid. Goku faced Freeza at 100%. Goku had to endure during that fight which started with Freeza at 100%. The drain happened in-combat. It's not like some video game fight where he had to lure him in front of convenient objects that sapped his power, he forced him to burn it as they fought.
So yes, it is legitimate to say Goku can and would have won that fight. Vegeta we simply cannot measure as we don't have him facing Freeza until after he'd been significantly tired out by Goku.
This exactly. People are saying Goku lost and Vegeta was the only one who could have won, like Vegeta was now suddenly the top dog. People are trying to pass that off as fact. If Goku and Vegeta switched places, then Goku would look worse for sure.
Goku lost, but he lost from interference and fighting Freeza at his best. Vegeta lost, but he lost to a weakened Freeza. That's why Vegeta looks worse. I already said a fresh Vegeta vs Freeza would probably be more or less the same as what happened with Goku.
That's like if a UFC fighter lost to the champion, and then a second UFC fighter takes on the champion while he's weakened, nearly wins, but the champ gets one good punch in to knock out the second fighter. Who do you think looks better?
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:You seem to miss the fact that no one's saying that Goku brute forced Freeza, He had to fight smart and wear him out.
The reason this is even a conversation is from the contextual belief that Goku got stomped by Freeza but Vegeta overpowered him from pretty much the start of their fight. People are trying to utilize this to argue Vegeta has surpassed Goku, fought better than Goku, could have taken Freeza at full power, etc.
You're ignoring context for the sake of a fight over semantics.
No. You interfered in an argument that didn't concern you in the first place. What you're talking about wasn't what I was discussing in anyway. What I was discussing was the belief that Goku managed to fight and beat a fully powered Freeza while Vegeta didn't when that wasn't even remotely the case. He had to rely on exploiting a weakness in order to gain the advantage just like Freeza had to against Vegeta. Goku wasn't stronger than Freeza just like Freeza wasn't stronger than Vegeta when he fought him despite both gaining the upper through exploiting weaknesses.
No one said Goku managed to beat anything. Just that he would have after facing him at 100%. People are speaking in forums as if Goku gets straight-up stomped and then Vegeta steps in and wins where he couldn't. Simply not the case. Goku would indeed have won that fight.
And yes, it's still valid. Goku faced Freeza at 100%. Goku had to endure during that fight which started with Freeza at 100%. The drain happened in-combat. It's not like some video game fight where he had to lure him in front of convenient objects that sapped his power, he forced him to burn it as they fought.
So yes, it is legitimate to say Goku can and would have won that fight. Vegeta we simply cannot measure as we don't have him facing Freeza until after he'd been significantly tired out by Goku.
A fight against a power and stamina drained Freeza? Yes. Against a 100% full powered Freeza? No. And absolutely nothing suggest Freeza was significantly tired out by Goku. That's your assumption with absolutely nothing backing it up. Weakened? Yes. Drastically weakened? Nothing suggests that.
-Back from work-
From what I read I'm gonna enjoy this movie much. Bascially seems like another Toei movie, but with Toriyama's touch.
This is what I wanted all along.
The main problem I have with it is Freeza fate. Freeza cames back and dies in the same movie. And this is bad, to say the least.
Unlike BOG, there's no worldbuilding this time, not set up for the next adventure it seems. So there's was no point in bringing Freeza back at all.
I hope there's a extended version down the road with some cool stuff to add. A cliffhanger ending like BOG would be welcome.
I already loved BOG, but the extended version jsut proved how great that movie was.
And today its my 2 year anniversary. Time flies. Where's the badge?!
dbzfan7 wrote:This exactly. People are saying Goku lost and Vegeta was the only one who could have won, like Vegeta was now suddenly the top dog. People are trying to pass that off as fact. If Goku and Vegeta switched places, then Goku would look worse for sure.
Goku lost, but he lost from interference and fighting Freeza at his best. Vegeta lost, but he lost to a weakened Freeza. That's why Vegeta looks worse. I already said a fresh Vegeta vs Freeza would probably be more or less the same as what happened with Goku.
That's like if a UFC fighter lost to the champion, and then a second UFC fighter takes on the champion while he's weakened, nearly wins, but the champ gets one good punch in to knock out the second fighter. Who do you think looks better?
Except that's not how it went at all. Freeza had to employ an underhanded tactic in order to take down Vegeta just like Goku had to be taken down by underhanded tactics (another character interfering). Some of you like to say that what Freeza did to Vegeta wasn't an underhanded tactic but merely an exploitation of weakness (Vegeta not being able to breathe in space). Well it's no different than what happened to Goku. Goku let his guard down and Sorbet exploited that weakness. Trying to make it look like Sorbet interfering in Goku and Freeza's fight is somehow worse than Freeza destroying the planet because he knows he can't beat Vegeta is pretty laughable IMO.
Last edited by Birusu16 on Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Honestly it boggles me how some people can call themselfs fans and seem to be completely oblivious to the purpose or back bone of dragon ball story. The manga/anime like it or not has always been about 'how great goku is'' thats the story in a nutshell, and gokus main skill, talent or what makes him special is fighting (also his goal is to be the best fighter). So essentially dragon ball is about how great goku is at fighting. With that in mind i dont see the logic of some crying for vegeta to beat a bad guy goku cant. Its never going to happen unless its a spin off of dbz where its a manga/movie of how great vegeta is. But its never going to happen here and its silly to even consider it. How are you going to tell a story about the protagonist being the best at fighting and have his rival prove to be better? do you even think how retarded that sounds?
And we'll definetly be getting more movies as obviously the story direction seem more than likely going towards making goku greater than even the gods; Its obvious/clear as day seeing how the first one played out and what we've learned already from this one.
dbzfan7 wrote:This exactly. People are saying Goku lost and Vegeta was the only one who could have won, like Vegeta was now suddenly the top dog. People are trying to pass that off as fact. If Goku and Vegeta switched places, then Goku would look worse for sure.
Goku lost, but he lost from interference and fighting Freeza at his best. Vegeta lost, but he lost to a weakened Freeza. That's why Vegeta looks worse. I already said a fresh Vegeta vs Freeza would probably be more or less the same as what happened with Goku.
That's like if a UFC fighter lost to the champion, and then a second UFC fighter takes on the champion while he's weakened, nearly wins, but the champ gets one good punch in to knock out the second fighter. Who do you think looks better?
Except that's not how it went at all. Freeza had to employ an underhanded tactic in order to take down Vegeta just like Goku had to be taken down by underhanded tactics (another character interfering). Some of you like to say that what Freeza did to Vegeta wasn't an underhanded tactic but merely an exploitation of weakness. Well it's no different than what happened to Goku. Goku let his guard down and Sorbet exploited that weakness. Trying to make it look like Sorbet interfering in Goku and Freeza's fight is somehow worse than Freeza destroying the planet because he knows he can't beat Vegeta is pretty laughable IMO.
Both are dirty tactics...except Goku lost to a Freeza who started from fresh, and Vegeta lost to a Freeza who was spoon fed to him by Goku. Simple as that. Even if Freeza was stronger than Goku and Goku would still have lost without Sorbet interfering, he still looks better than Vegeta as Vegeta had the tools to win, and still lost.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Birusu16 wrote:A fight against a power and stamina drained Freeza? Yes. Against a 100% full powered Freeza? No. And absolutely nothing suggest Freeza was significantly tired out by Goku. That's your assumption with absolutely nothing backing it up. Weakened? Yes. Drastically weakened? Nothing suggests that.
Yes, Goku would have still won against 100% full powered Freeza. Why? Because Goku was stronger than 100% Freeza by a difference of 30,000,000.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
MajinMan wrote:Are we really complaining about Goku cheating now? We need to calm down because everyone is acting as if their life has been ruined from one movie. I'm sorry but if you're complaining so much you ruin it for others as well. You look in this thread and mostly find pessimistic people saying the movie sucks balls. We get it, you hate the movie. It doesn't mean you have to go around spreading negativity for no real reason other than "I hate this because Freezas ruined" or "It's a bad fanfic with no plot" etc.
I don't even feel negatively about movie. I have a lot of problems with how Goku acted in DBZ as well, but I liked it. I didn't like how Goku acted in BoG at all as well, but I like it. It is just that there are things in almost each part of a franchise, with which I have problems with, it doesn't mean that I don't like them. I am sure that I will be able to enjoy this movie despite all its flaws, as I did with all previous movies and DB series in general.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.
Apparently blue ain't such a weak colour now . So Toriyama seemingly changed his mind on both Vegeta and the colour blue.
Probably the opposite. He chose that color for this form BECAUSE he thought it looked tranquil and weak. Because he's...you know...Toriyama.
Yeah, I think he intentionally chose blue because he thinks its a weak-looking color. Toriyama and his irony, I love it lol. Still would've preferred the whole "base form" thing though rather than a new look
Friezaa! wrote:Honestly it boggles me how some people can call themselfs fans and seem to be completely oblivious to the purpose or back bone of dragon ball story. The manga/anime like it or not has always been about 'how great goku is'' thats the story in a nutshell, and gokus main skill, talent or what makes him special is fighting (also his goal is to be the best fighter). So essentially dragon ball is about how great goku is at fighting. With that in mind i dont see the logic of some crying for vegeta to beat a bad guy goku cant. Its never going to happen unless its a spin off of dbz where its a manga/movie of how great vegeta is. But its never going to happen here and its silly to even consider it. How are you going to tell a story about the protagonist being the best at fighting and have his rival prove to be better? do you even think how retarded that sounds?
And we'll definetly be getting more movies as obviously the story direction seem more than likely going towards making goku greater than even the gods; Its obvious/clear as day seeing how the first one played out and what we've learned already from this one.
Well at this point they're both major players in the story and it doesn't always have to be Goku who wins. Yeah the story is about Goku but he can also lose as he has before. So maybe you don't understand what Dragon Ball is about then?
dbzfan7 wrote:
This exactly. People are saying Goku lost and Vegeta was the only one who could have won, like Vegeta was now suddenly the top dog. People are trying to pass that off as fact. If Goku and Vegeta switched places, then Goku would look worse for sure.
Goku lost, but he lost from interference and fighting Freeza at his best. Vegeta lost, but he lost to a weakened Freeza. That's why Vegeta looks worse. I already said a fresh Vegeta vs Freeza would probably be more or less the same as what happened with Goku.
That's like if a UFC fighter lost to the champion, and then a second UFC fighter takes on the champion while he's weakened, nearly wins, but the champ gets one good punch in to knock out the second fighter. Who do you think looks better?
If a third wrestler stops the match, heals the second fighter and places just to give you his rival, nobody wins,.
The referee canceled the game for cheating
Favorite Character: Vegeta Seconds favorites caracteres:Goku , Piccolo Previously I like: Kid Gohan I do not like: Adult Gohan I hope more: Trunks and Goten I claim for: A girlfriend and a happy life for Yamcha. Women SSJ Hate: Send all women to take care of children, including A18. Need more of: Ten Sin Han
dbzfan7 wrote:
This exactly. People are saying Goku lost and Vegeta was the only one who could have won, like Vegeta was now suddenly the top dog. People are trying to pass that off as fact. If Goku and Vegeta switched places, then Goku would look worse for sure.
Goku lost, but he lost from interference and fighting Freeza at his best. Vegeta lost, but he lost to a weakened Freeza. That's why Vegeta looks worse. I already said a fresh Vegeta vs Freeza would probably be more or less the same as what happened with Goku.
That's like if a UFC fighter lost to the champion, and then a second UFC fighter takes on the champion while he's weakened, nearly wins, but the champ gets one good punch in to knock out the second fighter. Who do you think looks better?
If a third wrestler stops the match, heals the second fighter and places just to give you his rival, nobody wins,.
The referee canceled the game for cheating
This is a life or death fight...there's no rules.
My example was a UFC gauntlet. Say one fighter weakens the champ but goes down, and the second fighter nearly beats the champ after the first fighter softened him up for him. The second fighter goes down after the champ gets in one good K.O. punch.. Who looks better? The first fighter because he fought a fresh champ and lost. The second fighter looks worse as he dominated a weakened champ, but then still lost with his advantage.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
This exactly. People are saying Goku lost and Vegeta was the only one who could have won, like Vegeta was now suddenly the top dog. People are trying to pass that off as fact. If Goku and Vegeta switched places, then Goku would look worse for sure.
Goku lost, but he lost from interference and fighting Freeza at his best. Vegeta lost, but he lost to a weakened Freeza. That's why Vegeta looks worse. I already said a fresh Vegeta vs Freeza would probably be more or less the same as what happened with Goku.
That's like if a UFC fighter lost to the champion, and then a second UFC fighter takes on the champion while he's weakened, nearly wins, but the champ gets one good punch in to knock out the second fighter. Who do you think looks better?
If a third wrestler stops the match, heals the second fighter and places just to give you his rival, nobody wins,.
The referee canceled the game for cheating
If I ever get mugged by multiple people, I'll be sure to tell them that they cheated.
Guys do you think Goku is going to turn evil in the next movie?
Because when Goku killed Frieza, Sorbet said that everything is going according to the plan and he even interfered during their fight to make Goku take the final blow at Frieza instead of Vegeta. Do think Goku killing Frieza might somehow taint his pure heart or place a curse on him allowing Sorbet to take control of Goku. And maybe we're going too see Vegeta in the next movie fight against evil Goku?
GokuRules987 wrote:Guys do you think Goku is going to turn evil in the next movie?
Because when Goku killed Freeza, Sorbet said that everything is going according to the plan and he even interfered during their fight to make Goku take the final blow at Freeza instead of Vegeta. Do think Goku killing Freeza might somehow taint his pure heart or place a curse on him allowing Sorbet to take control of Goku. And maybe we're going too see Vegeta in the next movie fight against evil Goku?
Kei confirmed that Sorbet dies before Freeza. So people, as always, are just spreading false rumors.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If I ever get mugged by multiple people, I'll be sure to tell them that they cheated.
Seriously I bet if it was Gohan or Piccolo, there wouldn't be this defense. Seriously let's say Goku goes down, and instead of Vegeta we have Gohan or Piccolo fight instead. Freeza is weakened enough that one of them can kick his ass, but then Freeza wins because he blows up earth. Does Gohan or Piccolo look better than or as good as Goku in this scenario cause they nearly beat a weakened Freeza? No. They look worse cause they had the advantage and still couldn't win.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
