Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kaiosama]

"No one here is talking about UI Goku and Jiren. Why do you always want to emphasize that Goku will end up stronger? Be more impartial"


UI Goku and Jiren are the ones who we must scale to now because they are the new standard. Vegeta's new transformation is fodder. Who cares if he can beat Hakaishin candidate when UI and Jiren are far beyond that.

AND? It does not matter if UI Goku and Jiren are beyond that, this is not the point of the discussion and this does not detract from Vegeta's merit in defeating a HAKAISHIN.
I already explained to you why his new transformation is not "fodder."

SSJ3 and SSG did not defeat any enemies in the series. Vegeta in his new form has already done much more than that. Even UI only defeated Kefla (weaker than Toppo)

Anyway, this is not going to change your mind because you're just so blinded by Goku that it's annoying, there's no way to have a discussion, especially if it's about Goku

Yeah and I find it really annoying that you always try to spin and defend Vegeta. I guess it's because we are fans of different characters. You like and I hate him because IMO he's bland. His primary role in this series is Jobber/Side Kick.

Now back to the power scaling conversation. Jiren and Goku are the new standard for where the series is at this time. You have to have a standard to scale to when talking about strength. Is Toppo really as powerful as the other Hakaishin? We've seen nothing to point to Toppo even being as strong as Belmond. It was stated that he had to still charge up his energy to attack with Hakai (something none of the other Hakaishin have to do). This makes him not Hakaishin tier yet IMO. He's a candidate for a reason. Vegeta and Toppo should be properly regulated to Hakaishin candidate level BELOW the other Hakaishin and Vegeta being stronger than Toppo should come with a huge asterisk because he was handicapped by not being able to destroy Vegeta with his Hakai blasts.

[TheSaiyanGod]

"No one here is talking about UI Goku and Jiren. Why do you always want to emphasize that Goku will end up stronger? Be more impartial"


UI Goku and Jiren are the ones who we must scale to now because they are the new standard. Vegeta's new transformation is fodder. Who cares if he can beat Hakaishin candidate when UI and Jiren are far beyond that.

AND? It does not matter if UI Goku and Jiren are beyond that, this is not the point of the discussion and this does not detract from Vegeta's merit in defeating a HAKAISHIN.
I already explained to you why his new transformation is not "fodder."

SSJ3 and SSG did not defeat any enemies in the series. Vegeta in his new form has already done much more than that. Even UI only defeated Kefla (weaker than Toppo)

Anyway, this is not going to change your mind because you're just so blinded by Goku that it's annoying, there's no way to have a discussion, especially if it's about Goku

Yeah and I find it really annoying that you always try to spin and defend Vegeta. I guess it's because we are fans of different characters. You like and I hate him because IMO he's bland. His primary role in this series is Jobber/Side Kick.

Now back to the power scaling conversation. Jiren and Goku are the new standard for where the series is at this time. You have to have a standard to scale to when talking about strength. Is Toppo really as powerful as the other Hakaishin? We've seen nothing to point to Toppo even being as strong as Belmond. It was stated that he had to still charge up his energy to attack with Hakai (something none of the other Hakaishin have to do). This makes him not Hakaishin tier yet IMO. He's a candidate for a reason. Vegeta and Toppo should be properly regulated to Hakaishin candidate level BELOW the other Hakaishin and Vegeta being stronger than Toppo should come with a huge asterisk because he was handicapped by not being able to destroy Vegeta with his Hakai blasts.

I know I'm a Vegeta fanboy, but I try to at least be more unbiased, as opposed to you spreading hatred for other characters.
And I do not hate Goku, actually he's one of my favorite characters.

Does not exist a '' standard '', there are characters much stronger than they in DB.
That does not mean we're going to stop scaling the other characters, that does not make sense.

Vermoud said that Toppo was equated with a Hakaishin.
There is nothing saying that Toppo can not be stronger than Beerus, it is all implicit because we do not know the level of each Hakaishin. But Toppo is definitely in this realm and Vermoud confirms this.
And we've never seen GoDs (other than Beerus) using Hakai in a battle, so we do not know if they need charge the Hakai. And this is only related to Toppo's experience with that power, does not mean that he is weaker.

Vermoud, Vegeta, the title of the EP, the narrator and other characters called Toppo of Hakaishin, he really is a Hakaishin (and possesses a skill that only the Hakaishins can use), he is only candidate for GoD post in U11 does not change anything in your power).
And there is no level '' candidate for Hakaishin tier '', the fact that Toppo is a candidate means that he is able to occupy the post, and the fact that he has become a Hakaishin proves that he is a Hakaishin tier, comparable to other Hakaishins.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it comes down to Toppo having the same skill and power of a Hakaishin, perhaps even a fair better durability, but his movements are pretty generic and slow.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I think it comes down to Toppo having the same skill and power of a Hakaishin, perhaps even a fair better durability, but his movements are pretty generic and slow.

Yes, his moves are not as polished as a hakaishin who has been training with their angel for hundreds of thounsands of years, but skills aside, toppos pure power is on hakaishin tier. And vegeta did overwhelm that level of strength.


Vegeta did a good job in the tournament, and him getting eliminated by jiren should be fine by nearly anyone’s standards.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think it comes down to Toppo having the same skill and power of a Hakaishin, perhaps even a fair better durability, but his movements are pretty generic and slow.

Yes, his moves are not as polished as a hakaishin who has been training with their angel for hundreds of thounsands of years, but skills aside, toppos pure power is on hakaishin tier. And vegeta did overwhelm that level of strength.


Vegeta did a good job in the tournament, and him getting eliminated by jiren should be fine by nearly anyone’s standards.

I think the only thing I wanted from Vegeta in this tournament is that he would definitely outdo Beerus.

Since the beginning of DBS, the goal of Goku and Vegeta has always been Beerus.
There are several quotes from them about this. Against Toppo, although Vegeta was shown to be Hakaishin tier, it was not explicit whether he overcame Beerus.

I would be a little disappointed if only Goku surpassed Beerus

[Kenneth La Torre]

I think it comes down to Toppo having the same skill and power of a Hakaishin, perhaps even a fair better durability, but his movements are pretty generic and slow.

Yes, his moves are not as polished as a hakaishin who has been training with their angel for hundreds of thounsands of years, but skills aside, toppos pure power is on hakaishin tier. And vegeta did overwhelm that level of strength.


Vegeta did a good job in the tournament, and him getting eliminated by jiren should be fine by nearly anyone’s standards.

I think the only thing I wanted from Vegeta in this tournament is that he would definitely outdo Beerus.

Since the beginning of DBS, the goal of Goku and Vegeta has always been Beerus.
There are several quotes from them about this. Against Toppo, although Vegeta was shown to be Hakaishin tier, it was not explicit whether he overcame Beerus.

I would be a little disappointed if only Goku surpassed Beerus

Well, you can definitely make the argument that he has to make beerus fight seriously, if not pressure him outright. But yes, I also wanted both of them to be above beerus by the end.
But there is still hope. Maybe in 128, vegeta could power up even more to the point where beerus or whis comment that his power may rival beerus.

Current episodes have also convinced me that jiren is above the G.o.Ds in general.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes, his moves are not as polished as a hakaishin who has been training with their angel for hundreds of thounsands of years, but skills aside, toppos pure power is on hakaishin tier. And vegeta did overwhelm that level of strength.


Vegeta did a good job in the tournament, and him getting eliminated by jiren should be fine by nearly anyone’s standards.

I think the only thing I wanted from Vegeta in this tournament is that he would definitely outdo Beerus.

Since the beginning of DBS, the goal of Goku and Vegeta has always been Beerus.
There are several quotes from them about this. Against Toppo, although Vegeta was shown to be Hakaishin tier, it was not explicit whether he overcame Beerus.

I would be a little disappointed if only Goku surpassed Beerus

Well, you can definitely make the argument that he has to make beerus fight seriously, if not pressure him outright. But yes, I also wanted both of them to be above beerus by the end.
But there is still hope. Maybe in 128, vegeta could power up even more to the point where beerus or whis comment that his power may rival beerus.

Current episodes have also convinced me that jiren is above the G.o.Ds in general.

Yeah, maybe. On EP 128, Vegeta will be facing Jiren, who will be using his true power (according to the preview of EP 127), so maybe we will finally see Vegeta alone facing someone with a power above the Hakaishins.
If only he equaled Beerus, I would be satisfied.

And in fact, I think Jiren is way above the GoDs

[Hugo Boss]

In my criteria, Beerus would beat Goku in attack and defense and be beaten in moves and battle sense. In the others they would be tied. Though, I would give Beerus the benefit of experience.

Against Vegeta he would fair a little better, specially in moves, speed and skills. Vegeta may have proved he is a superior damage dealer while also being more suited to battle.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In my criteria, Beerus would beat Goku in attack and defense and be beaten in moves and battle sense. In the others they would be tied. Though, I would give Beerus the benefit of experience.

Against Vegeta he would fair a little better, specially in moves, speed and skills. Vegeta may have proved he is a superior damage dealer while also being more suited to battle.

In what world is Vegeta a superior damage dealer to Goku? Goku would stomp the shit out of Beerus if Vegeta outclasses him in attack potency, which he most likely doesn't yet.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well, the point of goku surpassing beerus is only two episodes away. Get ready for everyone to update their tier list.

[ChiefWamsutta]

My List for Strongest DBSuper Characters

Tier #1: Grand Priest
Tier #2: Angels
Tier #3: Jiren
Tier #4: Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Tier #5: Geene | Liquiir | Iwne | Arack | Belmod | Beerus | Ultra Instinct Goku
Tier #6: Quitela | Champa | Heles | Corrupted Merged Zamasu
Tier #7: Super Saiyan Beyond Blue Vegeta | Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 Goku | Super Saiyan Legend 2 Kefla
Tier #8: Mosco | Rumsshi | Sidra | God Of Destruction Toppo
Tier #9: Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 10 Goku | Super Saiyan Legend Kefla
Tier #10: Merged Zamasu | Anilaza
Tier #11: Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Toppo | Lightspeed Dyspo
Tier #12: Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black | Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Golden Frieza | Hit
Tier #13: Dyspo | Ultimate Gohan | Koichiarator
Tier #14: Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks | Android 17
Tier #15: Super Saiyan God Goku | Final Form Frieza | Base Goku Black | Maji Kayo


Please Note: Super Saiyan Legend Kefla is just what I call her green-haired SS1; Super Saiyan Legend 2 Kefla is what I call her green-haired SS2; Lightspeed Dyspo is his purple aura final power-up.

I think one of my biggest issues with my previous lists is that I was unable to believe Corrupted Merged Zamasu and SSB Vegito could be near Beerus. Once we learned that UI Goku was essentially Beerus level, it only made sense to have SSB Vegito above him.

[Bullza]

I'd say Toppo would be on the level of the majority of the Gods of Destruction but wouldn't beat Quitela or certainly Beerus who has somewhat got a handle on Ultra Instinct.

So Vegeta could still lose to Beerus just from skill alone.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'd say Toppo would be on the level of the majority of the Gods of Destruction but wouldn't beat Quitela or certainly Beerus who has somewhat got a handle on Ultra Instinct.

So Vegeta could still lose to Beerus just from skill alone.

Hmmmm, so what numbered tier would you put "God Of Destruction Toppo" in? Would you move anything else other than GoD Toppo?

[Bullza]

Hmmmm, so what numbered tier would you put "God Of Destruction Toppo" in? Would you move anything else other than GoD Toppo?

Well going from bottom to top, I wouldn't say Final Form Frieza was as strong as Super Saiyan God which he even implied himself.

I don't think Hit should be on the same level as Golden Frieza going by both of their fights with Dyspo, that is if you're just going by sheer power level.

I'd have said Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Golden Frieza were all on the same level. With Light Speed Dyspo being above.

I'd have Super Saiyan Kefla above Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaioken x20.

I'd put all the Gods of Destruction on the same level except arguably Beerus and Quitela, they may be a notch above, dunno about a whole tiers worth though.

[Lord Frieza]

Quit question: Just how load could Rumsshi's voice be if it can paralyse the like of a GoD and Goku?

[Black Hawk]

Quit question: Just how load could Rumsshi's voice be if it can paralyse the like of a GoD and Goku?

I was under the impression that, much like real elephants, Rumshi's voice was simply so low that its wavelength was much longer than a human's and its frequency was much lower than a human's, so the sheer depth of it, combined with his destroyer status, made it seismic in nature. Something to that effect.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Can people just put all the G.o.Ds in one tier. For fucks sake, it’s painful seeing people dividing the hakaishins into separate tiers when there is not a single spec of clues as to where they rank to each other. They were all able to fuck each other up in the manga, so they all deserve the same tiering.

[Hugo Boss]

In my criteria, Beerus would beat Goku in attack and defense and be beaten in moves and battle sense. In the others they would be tied. Though, I would give Beerus the benefit of experience.

Against Vegeta he would fair a little better, specially in moves, speed and skills. Vegeta may have proved he is a superior damage dealer while also being more suited to battle.

In what world is Vegeta a superior damage dealer to Goku? Goku would stomp the shit out of Beerus if Vegeta outclasses him in attack potency, which he most likely doesn't yet.

Vegeta can overpower Hakai. Goku still has to work on the offensive part of Ultra Instinct. This doesn’t mean they can already beat Beerus though. He can use Ultra Instinct to some extent as well.

[ToshioWrites]

Sorry if this has been discussed already but would you guys say Vegeta in his new form is stronger than Goku right now in his kkx20 atleast until he gets UI

[ZombieVito]

Sorry if this has been discussed already but would you guys say Vegeta in his new form is stronger than Goku right now in his kkx20 atleast until he gets UI

We don't know.

I watched 125 again and saw nothing that indicated that Toppo was GoD tier.

Belmod only said that by throwing away justice, Toppo became like a God of Destruction and that's not really a power statement.