"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[IM21]

Looks like the whole chapter is Goku and Hit vs Jiren.

[Cetra]

The main problem with Toyotaro's interpretation of the Zamasu in all his incarnations, is that he never presents them as the divine, heavenly, godly beings they are supposed to be, something which the anime staff went out of their way to emphasize.

Stop right there.

This is dragonball, not a generic anime or JRPG. "Gods" in dragonball have no dignity; it's just a job title. Literally. The anime presenting Zamas and Black as "heavenly" is a poor choice, since it lends credence to Zamas' insane notions that he's above everyone else. In the manga, it's made clear that Zamas is just a deluded idiot, which he is. This is a strength, not a weakness.

a) Dragon Ball IS a generic anime and b) a god being a title/job for them does not mean they have no dignity. Even Akira Toriyama gave Toyotarou advice about drawing them with dignity and lots of the gods in this new era definitely show they are more than what is presented in the old era.

[ToshioWrites]

Jiren and base goku are talking at the end of the chapter

Also vegeta might be about to fight dyspo and toppo

[Kenneth La Torre]

So MSSB goku AND hit cant get wrecked by Jiren easily, and beerus is shocked when jiren one-shots hit out of the arena...

I guess jiren was meant to be broken in all medias

[Kenneth La Torre]

Meant to say can

[namekiansaiyan]

A whole chapter of the amazing Jiren kicking arse. This must be a good chapter.

Jiren is definitely the grestest of all time.

Jiren must now one shot Vegeta.

[Kenneth La Torre]

A whole chapter of the amazing Jiren kicking arse.

Jiren is definitely the grestest of all time.

Jiren must now one shot Vegeta.

Vegeta is about to fight either dyspo or toppo at the end of the chapter

[namekiansaiyan]

A whole chapter of the amazing Jiren kicking arse.

Jiren is definitely the grestest of all time.

Jiren must now one shot Vegeta.

Vegeta is about to fight either dyspo or toppo at the end of the chapter

He doesn't have a chance against both of them if he tries to.

I wouldn't be surprised if Frieza helps him survive which will annoy Vegeta.

[TKA]

a) Dragon Ball IS a generic anime

This is an absolutely insane and demonstrably false notion. Dragonball changed the game so much it became the game. There's a reason Goku and Vegeta have so many pale imitations. Dragonball sets trends, not follows them.

and b) a god being a title/job for them does not mean they have no dignity. Even Akira Toriyama gave Toyotarou advice about drawing them with dignity and lots of the gods in this new era definitely show they are more than what is presented in the old era.

Sure is a lot of dignity in Kami getting sucked into a container by Piccolo Jr. Or him getting berated by Piccolo Jr.

Sure is a lot of dignity in North Kai running around with a pet monkey, cracking jokes and being ignored by everyone.

Sure is a lot of dignity in East Kaioshin getting beat up, surpassed, disregarded and shown up by mortals at every turn.

Sure is a lot of dignity in Beerus and Whis talking about poop and farts.

No, bro, this is Dragonball. "Gods" here aren't held to any kind of standard here, aren't held up to be higher than others and are just big goofballs. The manga portrayed gods the same way Toriyama did: they're just people, but with titles.

Zamasu's self entitlement about being a god is entirely misplaced since a mortal can become a god through being trained and appointed the job. The manga shows he's just a pompous hypocrite. The manga went another step further when it had Vegetto say "Apparently, you are no different from us mortals since you haven't become a Kaioshin yet," in regards to Zamas' fusion also being only able to last an hour. The manga makes it obvious there that Zamas is full of shit (while the anime does the opposite and says Zamas IS a god).

Anime Zamas and Black, played absolutely straight, only work in a series where being a god has gravitas to it. That's not Dragonball. Demigra in Xenoverse 1 is a better evil God for Dragonball than Zamas in the anime ever was, since Xenoverse was actually able to remember that it's Dragonball and had Demigra have to deal with the fact that he wasn't taken as seriously as he should've been.

[SupremeKai25]

"Gods" in dragonball have no dignity

Ha! And mortals do?

it's just a job title.

All Shinjin and Angels are Gods, so it's not just a job's title. Although there are some mortals who can become deities through hard-work and dedication.

since it lends credence to Zamas' insane notions that he's above everyone else

Gods are above everyone else. Gods have the power and right to destroy or create mortal life.They judge all. Mortals are not their equals.

(while the anime does the opposite and says Zamas IS a god).

Because he is. At least the anime is sensible.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Apperantly, hit removed his coat that he has on... i want to see how he looks without it

[TKA]

I will reply to you in earnest and assume good faith from you.

Ha! And mortals do?

Nobody in dragonball does. This is dragonball; nothing is sacred. In that regard, everyone is the same.

The only character who doesn't get involved in any hijinks so far is the Grand Priest, and having to deal with the Omni King already destroys whatever layer of dignity he might have had otherwise.

Just to be clear, I don't care about this "ningen vs god" meme or whatever. If we're going to be having a discussion on the matter, throw all of that out if that's what you're assuming from me. We're talking about the narrative now.

All Shinjin and Angels are Gods, so it's not just a job's title. Although there are some mortals who can become deities through hard-work and dedication.

They're above mortals in the same way a guy who's been at a job for 10 years is higher than someone at an entry level position. The title carries the divinity. It's made expressly clear in the manga when Trunks has healing powers just because he was made a God's attendant.

Gods are above everyone else. Gods have the power and right to destroy or create mortal life.They judge all. Mortals are not their equals.

Is this a joke?

Because he is. At least the anime is sensible.

Except the anime has all the god characters say he's out of his mind and isn't being a true god... but then the anime staff has him being treated like a generic anime god. It's a scatterbrained message. In the manga, where he isn't portrayed as some heavenly divine being, other characters telling him he's full of shit actually makes sense and is consistent with what has happened.

[majinwarman]

Maybe the chapter was so bad that vjump is hesitant on releasing it

Oh god this is gonna be episode 100 all over again.

I think is a great idea that someone took care of the leakers since it can lead to terrible discussion when people jump the gun by one damn page so is better to wait for day 21.

That sounds better than praising something that may not deserve it. I like the manga but there are still problems in it.

While the Manga still have some problems, I definitely think this is Toyotaro Best arc so far, much better than the previous two arcs.

I agree. He is doing great this arc though I do have problems with his pacing. It's going a bit too fast for me.

[shadowfox87]

The manga may be rushing, but honestly I don't care. We aren't seeing entire episodes of Ribrianne fights. Hit and Goku never teamed up against Jiren. They did team up against Dyspo, but who cares about that? Toyotaro is most likely trying to get to the juicy stuff later. I'm ok with it. It also shows with regards to power scaling that suppressed Jiren can easily one shot Merged Zamasu. I'm just waiting to see how Toyotaro is going to fix Kale and Kefla's power scaling.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The manga may be rushing, but honestly I don't care. We aren't seeing entire episodes of Ribrianne fights. Hit and Goku never teamed up against Jiren. They did team up against Dyspo, but who cares about that? Toyotaro is most likely trying to get to the juicy stuff later. I'm ok with it.

The manga isnt rushing (in my opinion), its just switching around events. In the manga, only one universe went out before jiren vs Goku, in the anime two had been wiped out. I like toyos approach. And i definitely wanted a hit and goku vs jiren.

[Marlowe89]

They're above mortals in the same way a guy who's been at a job for 10 years is higher than someone at an entry level position. The title carries the divinity.

I could be misinterpreting your point here, but the Super manga does include instances of conveying intrinsic differences between gods and mortals. The description given for Super Saiyan Rosé is one such example. It's a little more than a job title, at least for Shinjin in particular.

I agree with the idea that they were never written to have an automatic moral high ground, though. The gods in Dragon Ball are as flawed as anyone else.

In the anime, Black is excessively flamboyant, sinister(fiendish even) and cool headed.

In the manga, Black is extremely blunt, brutal and tempermental.

The point is that there's more overlap here than you're giving the series' portrayal of Black credit for. He has plenty of moments highlighting his brutality and straightforwardness in the anime, especially prior to his big transformation. The manga likewise includes a few scenes that present that familiar sinister, sadistic side to Black that most people would have expected from the anime.

It's all (mostly) there, the difference chiefly lies in which attributes were prioritized for the sake of the narrative. Neither choice is inherently bad, even if I am personally partial to the anime's Black as a fan of the character.

[jeffbr92]

Hit being out already on this chapter? That's sad.

Likewise, Anime Black never gets beaten as badly as Manga Black, so we never get to see him become desperate. I, of course, find the situations the manga put Black into to be far more substantive than the anime's rendition.

What again?

a) Dragon Ball IS a generic anime

Sorry, but this is pure bullshit. Dragon Ball is not a generic anime. Toriyama even stated that what made DB so sucessful is that he took steps without thinking ahead on the future.

[TKA]

They're above mortals in the same way a guy who's been at a job for 10 years is higher than someone at an entry level position. The title carries the divinity.

I could be misinterpreting your point here, but the Super manga does include instances of conveying intrinsic differences between gods and mortals. The description given for Super Saiyan Rosé is one such example. It's a little more than a job title, at least for Shinjin in particular.

Sorry, that was a simplification on my part to try to explain my point clearer. The point being that being a god comes down merely to having a title, which means they have no intrinsic quality which makes them better than mortals.

What again?

You do realize in the manga, Black got beaten so badly by Vegeta he passed out, yes?

Manga Black was made to look vulnerable, which emphasized why he needed Zamas. The anime didn't really do that and had them both being, individually, frighteningly capable to the point where you wonder why Zamas bothered taking Goku's body.

[majinwarman]

Hit being out already on this chapter? That's sad.

Likewise, Anime Black never gets beaten as badly as Manga Black, so we never get to see him become desperate. I, of course, find the situations the manga put Black into to be far more substantive than the anime's rendition.

What again?

a) Dragon Ball IS a generic anime

Sorry, but this is pure bullshit. Dragon Ball is not a generic anime. Toriyama even stated that what made DB so sucessful is that he took steps without thinking ahead on the future.

Hit got eliminated?!

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yeah, he got one-shoted by jiren