Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[MajinVegetaPD]

Sorry if this has been discussed already but would you guys say Vegeta in his new form is stronger than Goku right now in his kkx20 atleast until he gets UI

We don't know.

I watched 125 again and saw nothing that indicated that Toppo was GoD tier.

Belmod only said that by throwing away justice, Toppo became like a God of Destruction and that's not really a power statement.

We don't know?

I guess Toppo roflstomping 17 and Freeza was no indication of the Tier that Toppo is in??

Or the title of the episode (With Imposing Presence! God of Destruction Toppo Descends!!)??

Or the fact the it stopped Goku, Vegeta, and Jiren in thier tracks.

Or the fact that Supreme Kai said this energy was identical to a GoDs.

Or the fact the Beerus was caught off guard with his "how can this be" statement.

And to correct you, Belmod actually said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction."

You can't cherry pick partial things to make Goku look good. I hate that.

Sorry, but it's evident that UI Goku(final version)>USSB Vegeta>SSB Goku x20 KK

[Bullza]

Is Super Saiyan Blue Goku at full power now stronger than he was at the start of the Tournament? Yay or nay?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No reason at all for him to be.

[Hugo Boss]

Is Super Saiyan Blue Goku at full power now stronger than he was at the start of the Tournament? Yay or nay?

There is that scene when he engaged in a brawl against a powered-up version of Jiren and they traded blows for a while, though once Jiren attacked Goku seemed to realize the difference between their power. We could say, at least, this time he is certainly making better use of his techniques.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Is Super Saiyan Blue Goku at full power now stronger than he was at the start of the Tournament? Yay or nay?

The answer is obvious. He got beat to near extinction twice. And his current ssb was momentarily going up against a more powerful jiren than what goku faced in 110.
As a ssb kaioken x20, he should be somewhat near his first UI forms power.

[Bullza]

Well there was that scene in....Episode 123? Where Goku turns Blue again and both Vegeta and Jiren have a shocked look on their face over it.

Which is pretty odd and I don't know what to make of it.

[ZombieVito]

We don't know?

I guess Toppo roflstomping 17 and Freeza was no indication of the Tier that Toppo is in??

Or the title of the episode (With Imposing Presence! God of Destruction Toppo Descends!!)??

Or the fact the it stopped Goku, Vegeta, and Jiren in thier tracks.

Or the fact that Supreme Kai said this energy was identical to a GoDs.

Or the fact the Beerus was caught off guard with his "how can this be" statement.

And to correct you, Belmod actually said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction."

You can't cherry pick partial things to make Goku look good. I hate that.

Sorry, but it's evident that UI Goku(final version)>USSB Vegeta>SSB Goku x20 KK

Freeza and 17 are 20 times weaker than Vegeta, why do they matter in this?

Not a single statement said he was as strong as a God of Destruction, not even the title. Being "like a" God of Destruction and being as strong as one are very different things.

[Kaiosama]

I believe Vegeta in 126 is stronger than KKX20 Goku, but will be significantly weaker than Final UI Goku. I would also say that KKX20 Goku might be close to or at the level of UI before, which is why he's having such a hard time breaking through his shell again. It's in the song lyrics. Goku and Jiren are going to be fighting a battle beyond Gods.

In regards to Toppo, I believe he's weaker than the rest of the GoD's, since he lacks the experience and control of them. You might be able to put him at the level or above Sidra, but Sidra has his really strong barrier technique, which you could make a case for being more useful than Toppo's Justice Flash.

[JazzMazz]

We don't know?

I guess Toppo roflstomping 17 and Freeza was no indication of the Tier that Toppo is in??

Or the title of the episode (With Imposing Presence! God of Destruction Toppo Descends!!)??

Or the fact the it stopped Goku, Vegeta, and Jiren in thier tracks.

Or the fact that Supreme Kai said this energy was identical to a GoDs.

Or the fact the Beerus was caught off guard with his "how can this be" statement.

And to correct you, Belmod actually said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction."

You can't cherry pick partial things to make Goku look good. I hate that.

Sorry, but it's evident that UI Goku(final version)>USSB Vegeta>SSB Goku x20 KK

Freeza and 17 are 20 times weaker than Vegeta, why do they matter in this?

Not a single statement said he was as strong as a God of Destruction, not even the title. Being "like a" God of Destruction and being as strong as one are very different things.

I think these lines from Belmond more than discredit your idea that Toppo isn't a God of Destruction, since you know, he literally says he is.

Toppo isn't "like" a God of Destruction, he IS a God of Destruction.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Is Super Saiyan Blue Goku at full power now stronger than he was at the start of the Tournament? Yay or nay?

Yes, he has and this has been confirmed multiple times against multiple opponents.

The first example would be in 113, when Goku is fighting Caulifla and Caulifla is amazed by Goku's power, noting "is this really the same Super Saiyan 2 power?" Later in the episode, Whis confirms Goku's senses are being improved by Kale and Caulifla's attacks. The next episode, it is noted by Elder Kaioshin that Goku is a warrior that "really does exert power beyond his limits."

This idea of Goku improving is later brought up in his fight against Jiren in 123, besides Goku's performance forcing Jiren to power up to unseen levels in the tournament, I think its also worth noting that Jiren says while fighting both Goku and Vegeta how "both their strikes are sharper."

With all these statements, as well as the improvement of other characters, I think its pretty safe to say Goku has grown as a fighter throughout the course of the tournament.

[Bullza]

But his current Super Saiyan Blue or even with the Kaioken x20 wouldn't be superior to the previous Ultra Instinct would it?

[wolflonnie]

I think Goku definitely has improved.
First time Jiren faced SSBKKx20, he thrashed away Goku like it was nothing. Now Goku is faring a little better against him, granted there's Vegeta with him, but I don't see why Jiren wouldn't just "eye away" Goku again. So I believe he's perhaps a bit stronger than his initial UI (or UI against Kefla).
Perhaps current Blue Goku would be comparable to SSBKKx10 at the start of the tournament, or something like that.

[JazzMazz]

But his current Super Saiyan Blue or even with the Kaioken x20 wouldn't be superior to the previous Ultra Instinct would it?

No, I wouldn't say so.

I think the thing that gives people the impression that he might be is that his been able to keep up with Jiren without UI. To that I say Goku hadn't fought long enough with UI against Jiren to draw any conclusions.

[ZombieVito]

I think these lines from Belmond more than discredit your idea that Toppo isn't a God of Destruction, since you know, he literally says he is.

Toppo isn't "like" a God of Destruction, he IS a God of Destruction.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I think people are missing my point entirely.

I'm not saying Toppo isn't a GoD, I'm saying that just because he is one doesn't mean he's as strong as the 12 ones prior to him.

Just like SS Bardock isn't as strong as Freeza just because he is a Super Saiyan.

[JazzMazz]

I think these lines from Belmond more than discredit your idea that Toppo isn't a God of Destruction, since you know, he literally says he is.

Toppo isn't "like" a God of Destruction, he IS a God of Destruction.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I think people are missing my point entirely.

I'm not saying Toppo isn't a GoD, I'm saying that just because he is one doesn't mean he's as strong as the 12 ones prior to him.

Just like SS Bardock isn't as strong as Freeza just because he is a Super Saiyan.

Why wouldn't Toppo be though, when they literally say that there is absolutely no difference between him and any other God of Destruction.

If his no different from a God of Destruction, then surprise surprise, he must be as strong as one(or on the level of a God of Destruction, whatever vague level of strength that is), otherwise he wouldn't be the same as a God of Destruction.

Besides, I think how he dealt with Golden Freeza, and Fairy Sparkles Vegeta in their initial confrontation, more than demonstrates his far above even stronger than level characters.

EDIT: Its also worth noting that God of Destruction isn't like Super Saiyan, being a Super Saiyan means that you've achieved a form, being a God of Destruction is more of a title given to characters that have a certain level of strength and can use the energy of destruction.

He at the very minimum, must be on the same level of strength as all the other Gods of Destruction. In the manga for example, they make it clear that Quitela and Beerus are the strongest destroyers, however, they also make it clear all the Gods of Destruction are roughly on the same playing field of strength.

[GodVegetto91]

Is Super Saiyan Blue Goku at full power now stronger than he was at the start of the Tournament? Yay or nay?

Current SSJ Blue Goku is over 20x stronger than he was during the special based on feats alone.

KKx20 SSJ Blue Goku was getting trashed and speedblitzed by Jiren during the special, while regular SSJ Blue Goku was keeping up just fine against an even more powered up Jiren for some time.

All the evidence you need is right there.

[Hugo Boss]

Well there was that scene in....Episode 123? Where Goku turns Blue again and both Vegeta and Jiren have a shocked look on their face over it.

Which is pretty odd and I don't know what to make of it.

Taking a closer look at the fights, in the first round, Goku was either casually approaching Jiren or attacking from long distances, while in the second he was more careful and thinking up a plan to create an opening, which he failed unfortunately but it was still an improvement. I wouldn’t say there is a power-up in the proper sense of the term, Goku was just setting the stage for the second round.

[Marlowe89]

I've always thought most of the evidence and dialogue pointed to Goku's fighting skill improving throughout the tournament rather than his raw power per se. Statements such as "his senses are improving" and "his attacks are sharper" don't necessarily describe a power-up in the traditional sense. If his strength did increase substantially since the start of the tournament, I feel like that would have been explicitly mentioned. Moreover, there were definitely occasions where Goku was implied to have been weaker than previously at points due to his exhaustion, although he seems to have regained his full power by now.

Still, it's worth noting that Goku with Kaioken performed much better against Jiren now than the first time around. I prefer to chalk that up to his improved skill and generally getting a better feel of Jiren's power and fighting style, but I'd have to comb over the episodes again to be sure.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've always thought most of the evidence and dialogue pointed to Goku's fighting skill improving throughout the tournament rather than his raw power per se. Statements such as "his senses are improving" and "his attacks are sharper" don't necessarily describe a power-up in the traditional sense. If his strength did increase substantially since the start of the tournament, I feel like that would have been explicitly mentioned. Moreover, there were definitely occasions where Goku was implied to have been weaker than previously at points due to his exhaustion, although he seems to have regained his full power by now.

Still, it's worth noting that Goku with Kaioken performed much better against Jiren now than the first time around. I prefer to chalk that up to his improved skill and generally getting a better feel of Jiren's power and fighting style, but I'd have to comb over the episodes again to be sure.

I did that already a few weeks ago, and I've had that conclusion in my mind for awhile.

What really sells this point to me is Whis's statement regarding Goku pushing himself against Kefla. He says that exposure to increasingly pressuring conditions has lead to acclimation on Goku's part, which in turn increases the threshold for him breaking through his shell to tap into the Ultra Instinct.

Basically, instead of Goku and Vegeta simply getting stronger, they're acclimating to Jiren's power and learning how to fight him better. In turn, Jiren has to release more power in order to keep up with them, something Goku himself did when he was fighting Caulifla.

[ernesth100]

Welp. Judging from the spoilers I guess it's confirmed basically now that [spoiler]UI Goku is God of Destruction level. Heck possibly beyond that. It's gotta be true. To elaborate, Vegeta was hitting Jiren in regular Blue form. Actually breaking through his attacks just a lil bit even if supressed. He then powers up to god knows what multiplier his "Beyond Blue" form gave him. But then eliminates a candidate for GoD and breaks through Hakai energy. As well as survives a self destruct technique basically. Now if UI Goku is beyond Vegeta who is officially at least candidate level for GoD. Then it's definately safe to say UI Goku is beyond this.[/spoiler]

[ToshioWrites]

How much stronger would you say Goku and Vegeta are in their base and normal super saiyan forms in the manga compared to the Buu arc?

I’ve gotten different answers to this elsewhere , some say their base forms would be stronger than anyone in z and others say they aren’t ridiculously stronger in those forms compared to where they were

Manga only