Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[FindKenshi]

I know you guys are just way past this point in this discussion, but can I just say one little thing?

When Paikan defeated Cell, Goku was impressed.

If this was a freak occurance resulting from a combination of Cell's defenses being lowered, and Paikan hitting him just right, then it wouldn't really be that impressive.

Are you arguing that Goku was that easily fooled? Goku knows all about Cell's abilites, he's fought him personally! Even after the initial shock, when everything had been cleaned up, Goku is smiling and commending Paikan's power and then looking forward with great anticipation.

What happens to the significance of Paikan looking so awesome, if all he did was "get lucky" and K.O. Cell because his defenses were lowered, or whatever.

How is Paikan creaming Cell different than Trunks doing the same to Freeza? New character defeats powerful known character to establish how powerful new character is.

This is logical, and it's simple, even.

[Perfect]

You do realize Goku's amazed by him defeating Freeza and King Cold too right? He comments on his speed and looks in awe through that indication, otherwise why in the hell would Goku be amazed by Pikkon defeating Freeza? He wouldn't, "simple and easy".

[FindKenshi]

Your point? That doesn't detract from Goku being amazed at Paikans abilities at all.

[Perfect]

Because he's amazed by his speed, simply put again. There's no set way to interpret something, the fact you're trying to pass off your own interpretation as fact is appalling. Some things are interpretation (Cell's battle power recovering or not) and some things aren't (Cell being surprised, Goku being amazed). The reason why is usually subjective, and in this case it is.

[dbgtFO]

Because he's amazed by his speed, simply put again.

He was amazed by his strength, he even said that to Lord Kaio.

I know you guys are just way past this point in this discussion, but can I just say one little thing?

When Paikan defeated Cell, Goku was impressed.

If this was a freak occurance resulting from a combination of Cell's defenses being lowered, and Paikan hitting him just right, then it wouldn't really be that impressive.

Are you arguing that Goku was that easily fooled? Goku knows all about Cell's abilites, he's fought him personally! Even after the initial shock, when everything had been cleaned up, Goku is smiling and commending Paikan's power and then looking forward with great anticipation.

I agree, even the narrator said, Goku was happy there were guys better than him in the next world.

What happens to the significance of Paikan looking so awesome, if all he did was "get lucky" and K.O. Cell because his defenses were lowered, or whatever.

It loses its significance, considering before that Goku didn't think Paikuhan could take care of Cell and co., but after seeing him in action he's excited about how amazing Paikuhan's strength really is.
There isn't much to get worked up about, if Paikuhan just got lucky and his strength wasn't good enough to take care of Cell in a fair fight. Also before Goku fights Paikuhan in the tournament, he even thinks to himself, how he's so excited to fight someone that strong.

How is Paikan creaming Cell different than Trunks doing the same to Freeza? New character defeats powerful known character to establish how powerful new character is.

This is logical, and it's simple, even.

All True.

Also I thought everyone was in agreeance with the later stuff contradicting Goku's implied filler strength?

[Perfect]

Again, Goku at the time was only concerned with his speed, especially seeing the branch carrying off towards Freeza and King Cold's defeat. If he boasts about his strength to Kaio later on then it could easily be interpreted as being able to simply damage Cell.

[lash]

Kaio being surprised could be attributed to a lot of factors, having nothing to do with his attack. It could simply be because he's stating that Paikuhan's smarter and faster, who knows; it's open heavily to interpretation.

My apologies, I meant not surprised.

It's not. It's pretty cut and dry considered the conversation is shown.
Goku: "What power. Pakuihan finished cell off in a flash"
Kaio: "Yeah okay..."
Goku: "He's really powerful!"
Kaio: "Paikuhan is not the only one powerful".

Kaio is suggesting Cell isn't anything special. He isn't remotely surprised that Paikuhan defeated him...without even knowing 'exactly' how Paikuhan defeated him(speed, cell being off guard, etc, obviously aren't considered in Kaio's or even Goku's statements.

No I'm afraid that's not the same. Because there's still the possibility of Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack and Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum. Neither is stated, but both are possible. Hell you wouldn't even need subjective material to prove he isn't one, you'd just need an out of universe explanation, and one could accumulate millions (I bet I could prove he isn't one with an in universe explanation as well). I'm making no more "unfounded" claims than you. The only thing that's set in stone was Paikuhan winning, nothing else. Yours theory of the mechanics on this situation are as valid as mine and therefore as subjective.

There's a possibility there's a glob monster under my bed too.
With no supporting evidence, it's a silly way of thinking.

What separates he thinking of Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack and Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum is the evidence. In which the former has been lacking for 12 pages now.

[Perfect]

You fail to realize that Kaio's statements are subjective to interpretation. He's not surprised of Cell's defeat because he's not a threat anymore, because he's dead. Therefore regardless of anything, he can be put in his place, especially when you have guys training constantly in Dai Kaio's place. You could also say Kaio severely overestimates everyone at Dai Kaio's.

There's a possibility there's a glob monster under my bed too.
With no supporting evidence, it's a silly way of thinking.

What separates he thinking of Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack and Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum is the evidence. In which the former has been lacking for 12 pages now.

Again you're being a hypocrite, because your premise has no factual support other than Cell losing. You have to understand how you view the mechanics is no more correct than anyone else, and that your hypothesis is no more correct than mine. In fact it's funny seeing you haven't seen your blatant hypocrisy, because your theory has about as much foundation as mine, meaning there's an equal chance for both occurrences, which you've neglected for 12 pages now.

[DNA]

You fail to realize that Kaio's statements are subjective to interpretation. He's not surprised of Cell's defeat because he's not a threat anymore, because he's dead. Therefore regardless of anything, he can be put in his place, especially when you have guys training constantly in Dai Kaio's place. You could also say Kaio severely overestimates everyone at Dai Kaio's.

There's a possibility there's a glob monster under my bed too.
With no supporting evidence, it's a silly way of thinking.

What separates he thinking of Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack and Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum is the evidence. In which the former has been lacking for 12 pages now.

Again you're being a hypocrite, because your premise has no factual support other than Cell losing. You have to understand how you view the mechanics is no more correct than anyone else, and that your hypothesis is no more correct than mine. In fact it's funny seeing you haven't seen your blatant hypocrisy, because your theory has about as much foundation as mine, meaning there's an equal chance for both occurrences, which you've neglected for 12 pages now.

Wow dude, you're really offensive aren't ya? He actually has a point, whereas you, don't. He's pointing to actual proof and you're shoving it off to defend your theory just because you think Cell is the absolute strongest and nothing can beat him. Seriously? C'mon man. That quote from Kaio is proof enough for me. He's a fucking Kaio, he knows what he's talking about. And your defence is that his statements are open to interpretation? That he may overestimate Paikuhans or anyone else's ability? Really?
I watched the scene in question yesterday and Cell was ready to attack Goku, in fact, he was in mid attack, all of a sudden Paikuhan appears and kicks him. Yes he was caught by surprise but he was battle ready. Dude, just admit you're wrong or at least present some ACTUAL proof that we're wrong instead of shunning all the proof we show you.
Again, for all intends and purposes, Toei managed to show Paikuhan as the absolute powerhouse in the Annoyo Realm, towering over Goku and Cell with ease. That was the point they were trying to show, and arguing against that is just silly.

[Perfect]

Offensive to someone that doesn't get the point and continues to post malformed logic that's no more subjective than what I've presented. If Kaio's statement can be interpreted multiple ways, in a way that benefits you is proof enough for you, that's fine. However I draw the line with people like lash that proclaim blatant hypocrisy in their arguments.

Dude, just admit you're wrong or at least present some ACTUAL proof that we're wrong instead of shunning all the proof we show you.

Yeah that's not gonna happen, because I'm not wrong. You nor anyone else has shown any solid proof towards his claim. Kaio's statement can be interpreted in multiple ways, in which I've shown. Kaio could be boasting because he believes people are really strong in the afterlife and that they should be the strongest. You need to realize that relying on subjective material is exactly what I've been doing and points towards hypocrisy when anyone bashes someone else's subjective analysis. You do know that no one's subjective analysis is above anyone else's, right? So no, I'm not going to "admit I'm wrong here".

Again, for all intends and purposes, Toei managed to show Paikuhan as the absolute powerhouse in the Annoyo Realm, towering over Goku and Cell with ease. That was the point they were trying to show, and arguing against that is just silly.

Subjective again, as it's been stated. I don't really care what you or anyone says when you're relying on the same stature or rather burden of proof that I am, which is all based on interpretation.

[DNA]

Why yes, because why would Kaio know if people are strong in the place where he dwells, he must just be boasting with no proof to back his claims. Or maybe he's views are also subjective? :o

And you're actually implying Toei might be deeper than they are. You're implying that Toei might have at that moment created a plot twist in which Cell is defeated by Paikuhan's sheer luck at that moment. Toei. Really. Okay, well, I'm done with this thread. Have fun in your fantasy land.

[Perfect]

Yes because your musing and ignorant viewpoint here is entirely justifiable, while I continue to eat candy in my fantasy land. Anyhow, no it's not definite and therefore it's subjective to the viewer's interpretation. Whether or not Toei was being "deep" is also subjective, but y'know, you can go ahead and leave fantasy land here, I think it's better without you anyway, because quite clearly I can muse to myself in the red and white fantasy meadows about how Toei is this deep company because some guy that proclaimed my environment fantasy land said so on a sardonic whim.

You see unlike his hypocritical posts, I've been accepting his viewpoint as plausible. The problem derives from his hypocritical argument that states his interpretation is above and better than mine, which simply isn't true. At least not in "fantasy land".

[lash]

You fail to realize that Kaio's statements are subjective to interpretation. He's not surprised of Cell's defeat because he's not a threat anymore, because he's dead. Therefore regardless of anything, he can be put in his place, especially when you have guys training constantly in Dai Kaio's place. You could also say Kaio severely overestimates everyone at Dai Kaio's.

Your attempt of a counter isn't very good. Kaio's expression and small statement when he hears the news that Cell and co are running rampant in Hell, clearly show his unease at the situation.(Would it even make sense to you anyway? Dai Kaio wouldn't even bother sending Paikuhan down to deal with them if they weren't a threat. He'd just leave them be. )

Like I said,

Goku: "What power. Pakuihan finished cell off in a flash"
Kaio: "Yeah okay..."
Goku: "He's really powerful!"
Kaio: "Paikuhan is not the only one powerful".

Kaio is suggesting Cell isn't anything special. He isn't remotely surprised that Paikuhan defeated him...without even knowing 'exactly' how Paikuhan defeated him(in other words...speed, cell being off guard, etc, obviously aren't considered in Kaio's or even Goku's statements.)

It's pretty cut and dry what the implication is here. You can try your hardest to try and twist a clear point(funny that you'd go around and say I'm the one using malformed logic ), but you can only go so far. If you want to say Kaio overestimated everyone, then be prepared to prove it completely.

Offensive to someone that doesn't get the point and continues to post malformed logic that's no more subjective than what I've presented. If Kaio's statement can be interpreted multiple ways, in a way that benefits you is proof enough for you, that's fine. However I draw the line with people like lash that proclaim blatant hypocrisy in their arguments.

Unacceptable. I'd appreciate it if you tone down the attitude. I'm sure it can be frustrating for you when you're backed into a corner in an argument, but do please try to maintain civility. Going out of your way to say I'm "posting malformed logic" (lol...) doesn't give you extra brownie points in an argument.

Now to address you, I'll give you the reason why your argument has been silly for the past 12+ pages.
For all intent purposes, lets go ahead and deem the obvious in meaning- cut and dry exchange Kaio and Son Goku had, as what you call it, 'subjective' in that the evidence is based on interpretation(Isn't everything? Even 2+2 being equal to 4 also is, at least based on your definition of 'subjective' interpretation.) So, even though your counter of subjective interpretation is one big sloppy fallacy, for now lets go with it...

Ok so we have evidence from the anime filler, although 'subjective', is still evidence directly supporting this exact notion: Paikuhan > Cell's maximum or Paikuhan's Attack > Cell's maximum. Honestly if we really want to play the 'subjective' game, I could tack on several more evidence for Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum. Ranging from Goku's own surprise at Paikuhan in Kaio's dialogue exchange, all the way up to my own interpretation of Cell not getting up because he was completely knocked out of Ki(overpowered), but none of this is necessary...

Now lets look at the evidence on the other side. Hmmm. Well it's up to page 12 and you've still failed to provide any that can specifically and directly support Cell's full maximum power > Paikuhan's attack.

As you've posted before:

I. Cell is relaxed and taken by surprise as we established.
II. Cell needed recovery time to get back on his feet.
III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all.

These don't directly support the notion "Cell's full maximum power > Paikuhan's attack". It could only prove/reinforce that Paikuhan > relaxed Cell, that Cell needs recovery time, and that filler Goku simply got strong(which is directly stated) enough fight a guy who could defeat Cell in one blow.

So your evidence is not one. None, nada, nothing at all, not even anything that could be considered subjective or based on interpretation in the anime filler directly supports Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan' Cell shattering attack.
I don't know how many examples I'm going to have to use before you get it...
A Guy can have the opinion that the universe is 6 thousand years old. Calling Newton a madman, carbon dating and stars we currently see that are billions of light years away(aka, opposing evidence against the guy's viewpoint) all 'subjective' and up for interpretation. And such counter interpretations such that some earthbound demon has channeled worm holes all over our galaxy, enabling us to see distances many light years away. And that every single carbon dating reading is flawed thanks to a magical Fred Flintstone looking goon from the 9th dimension.
Which is more likely? The Guy's viewpoint(note: for '12' years he has never once put up valid supporting evidence for his viewpoint but instead has spent all his time dismissing the opposing ones with laughable alternate interpretations that he deems 'subjective' ) or the scientific viewpoint(but by your fallacy influenced notion would still be considered 'subjective' interpretation anyway) that the universe is at least several billion years old due to evidence brought up.

So I ask you now. Which one is more likely based on the anime filler's evidence: Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack, or the scene itself showing us that Paikuhan's attack entirely defeated Cell...therefore Paikuhan's Attack > Cell's maximum?
After all, when has person A ever been defeated in one blow by person B, when person A was actually stronger than person B all along...with it:
-NEVER being hinted of person A being caught off guard.
-NEVER being stated Person A was defeated unfairly.
-NEVER stated person A was holding back or had power in reserve.
-And of course, NEVER stated person A was ever stronger than person B anyway.
That's right, never.

There's also never been a real life glob monster under anyone's bed. So if I want to think there was one under mine all of a sudden one day, I'd need to bring good ass evidence to back my silly viewpoint up(hint: this is the point where you actually provide evidence for your silly viewpoint).

Thinking two viewpoints based on 'subjective' interpretation automatically means they are on the same credibility is a laughable perspective in itself. Especially when one has evidence whether you want to call it 'subjective' or not, while the other has absolutely nothing.

A)There's a goblin under my bed making loud banging noises.
Or
B)My sister is nailing a painting on the wall like she told me she would 5 mins ago, which is downstairs and directly under my bed.

These interpretations must certainly hold the same credibility to you huh?
Sure both are entirely possible. But the evidence supporting B) exceeds the evidence of A). The low chances of A) don't even come close to comparing to the high chances of B). In conclusion: B) is a silly viewpoint. It's just as the low chances of "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" don't even come close to the high chances of "Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum". Therefore your interpretation... "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" is also a silly viewpoint, sorry to say.
You're free to stand by it, but unless you can finally bring some kind of anime filler evidence after 12 pages, it will remain just that...a silly viewpoint.

[Perfect]

Again, that's your interpretation of what happened. I interpret it as they aren't threats because they're already dead and they can't escape Hell, but they are being troublesome and making a ruckus. It's the same as if I were in a prison cell screaming to the top of my lungs, all I am is bothersome, I'm not a threat to anyone or even so much as escaping. The guards quite clearly won't die in Hell, because apparently a bandage is all that's needed when one's thrown into a pile of spikes. We see this with the Ginyus, Cell, King Cold and Freeza as well.

Kaio on the other hand isn't worried because he's confident in the warriors of the undead, because even if they lose, the villains are still stuck in Hell. However, Kaio doesn't show this so much as he does a uncaring sentiment that Cell was defeated, or even Freeza, because of the faith he has in the undead heroes. It's different than actually being alive because Freeza scared the piss out of Kaio, because he was a threat when he was alive. He's dead now, so he means nothing, plus there're warriors that can handle him dead or alive at this point in time.

I hate to break this to you, but your argument is severely flawed. You see I'm going to elaborate into detail as to why it's flawed and severely hypocritical. I'd also like to note that I'm not intentionally being offensive here, which I'm sure you're not either. There just comes a point when someone doesn't listen that a harsh tone has to be provided. You're the one that is using malformed logic, because I'm stating my interpretation, which is just that, an interpretation, just like your viewpoint on it is. To say your viewpoint is so much greater is such a hypocritical and arrogant argument. How I view something isn't “twisted”, but just that, how I view it. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but pushing your views onto me or anyone else just reflects your hypocritical nature here (notice I'm not pushing my views like you). Do not tell me to “remain civil” or even go as far to say that “I'm backed into a corner”. The debate was actually going smoothly until you came back into the discussion with your hypocritical dabble. I also don't care for your “argumentative brownie points”, really now.

You can patronize me as much as you want, but that isn't going to change what's subjective and what isn't. Mathematics generally aren't subjective to interpretation, at least not alone. You can try and mock me through your own ignorant understanding of what's subjective to interpretation, but I won't adhere to it. The way a character talks about another character in such a way that isn't specific, is just that, open to interpretation. Even if the character is specific, then you have to look at their attitude and how it afflicts what they're saying, which is also subjective. Of course judging by how you retort in complete ignorance, I assume you'd have no idea how such a procedure would go about being done.

Now here's the main folly all your examples provided, which I've counteracted I don't know how many times now; granted you just ignore it and then bring up the same thing again later, such as now. It's not surprising really at least not when all you've done is repeat yourself with implausibilities. If I state Batman invaded Europe during WWII, that's completely different from saying what was left of Cell's reserves was such a small amount it wouldn't make a difference, but if you added that amount towards Cell's chi before hand, minus the chi lost initially, then it's entirely possible for it to be above Pikkon's attack's energy. Now why would the second hold more ground over the first? The former over the latter? Because it's all about plausibility and the happening process. The mechanic I've expressed can logically work without contradictions, whereas Batman being during WWII cannot for various reasons. When you propose such an idiotic statement to show that subjective analysis holds no weight, you're really just confusing yourself. Ultimately there's a fine difference between subjective analysis and implausibility. Implausibilities rely on paradoxical thinking, or otherwise known as circular reasoning. Whereas subjective analysis relies on probability. See the difference and how they're polar opposites? Also notice that “theory” is not the key term used here, because you can have an implausible theory, as well as a theory based on subjective analytic material. Hopefully you understand the annoying folly in your logic here.

Now to move past you're condescending and otherwise idiotic and hypocritical display of how one would go about interpreting something and give an argument based on just that. My statements are direct, but for whatever reason you deem them as indirect. Notice that subjective doesn't mean direct or indirect. It's just something open to interpretation or perspective really, meaning in the “in-universe” perspective I've taken on, they are indeed direct. It's a really simple concept to understand, I'm sure even Vegeta could figure it out.

Now if we look at the actual scene, Cell very much so is caught off guard, which we established during the start of the discussion as irrelevant. He expresses this through, “What!?” which indicates a confusion since he was flying at his initial target Goku, his face also matches his tone and dialogue. So “never” huh? Yeah right. We can deduct that person “A” has power in reserve based on various subjective elements. Which is of course, interwoven within my proposed mechanic. The negative damage is instantly recovered since he cannot die and whatever is left is applied towards gaining consciousness. If you add all three variables one can deduct that Cell did indeed have power in reserve. Because simply speaking, that's one way of viewing the mechanics.

Unless you can prove my viewpoint wrong or somehow prove your as more credible, I'm not budging. Because every instance you've proposed/included is the result of the same reasoning I've deducted my results from, subjective analyzation. You whole argument here is, “my interpretation of Kaio implies that Cell's nothing special, and therefore Cell is ultimately weaker. Nothing states Cell is stronger and nothing ever states Cell was defeated unfairly”.

Let's take this logic and use it against you to colorize the malformed fallacy you've presented. I interpret Kaio as stating he personally believes that everyone in the afterlife should be leagues above anyone in Hell, and therefore Cell's actual power is irrelevant. Pikkon is never stated by Kaio to be stronger, “never” as you put it, only implied through an interpretation. Nothing ever states Cell was defeated fairly, at least nothing but a subjective interpretation.

Nothing more than subjective material is on your side of the argument, much like mine, yet you douse my subjective material in flames, when moreover they're both deriving from the way we interpret the scenes. Hopefully you can see the clear hypocritical logic you've presented and why your argument holds no more ground than mine.

I can assure if you proceed with the whole “I'm right you're wrong” bullshit, this is going to continue to escalate into a never ending fiasco, but the thing is, I don't have a problem with that. I'll argue each and every point you bring fourth to support your hypocritical foundation that you've been abiding by. With that said, again, I have no problem defending my point for days, weeks, months and years to come.

[coola]

In my opinion, even if Cell was at Super Perfect Cell level when he attacked Goku, it still wouldn`t be impossible for Paikuhan (at FSSJ Goku level), to knock him down, when Goku defeated Recoome, Burter and Jeice said, that Recoome could be defeat by "lucky shot", despite the fact, that, according to them, Goku was just little over 5000 when he attacked.

[Kaboom]

I can assure if you proceed with the whole “I'm right you're wrong” bullshit, this is going to continue to escalate into a never ending fiasco, but the thing is, I don't have a problem with that. I'll argue each and every point you bring fourth to support your hypocritical foundation that you've been abiding by. With that said, again, I have no problem defending my point for days, weeks, months and years to come.

This thread's already been going in pointless circles for over a month now, with little more actually being discussed than "Paikuhan's stronger than Cell" vs "No he wasn't," and at least one round of verbal warnings about bad attitudes.

If you intend to just post the same things over and over again, the moderation team politely asks that you refrain from doing so. New thoughts from new folks are welcome, but I'm not sure that's even possible at this point.

[matt0044]

...What restrictions? It's officially stated Cell retained all the strength he did from the Cell Games. Plus I'm thinking you didn't read the entirety of my post seeing that I said the tournament began very shortly after the Cell Games (Less than a month actually, a few days most likely). And then there's the lack of evidence that Cell was even at his level from the Cell Games to begin with, given the only argument is, "Toei forgot".

Why does Toei forget? With a good number of people working on the show, you'd think the producers would be able to keep continuity in check.

[Fox666]

you'd think the producers would be able to keep continuity in check.

But they don't (and are not even close) looking at the fillers in general, GT or movies.

[dbgtFO]

I guess no one can say to an absolute certainty, that either one's viewpoint is factually correct, but Perfect's argument here just strikes me as overanalyzing a very simple sequence without any evidence to support it.
The Trunks vs. Freeza example keeps coming up, because it's basically the same message being applied(as FK pointed out): "New guy defeats known powerful bad guy to in turn hype up the next big thing." In both cases the bad guy isn't stated to be at full power, but as far as anyone within the story is concerned, this is not noteworthy.
It should be noted that there are people who would make the same basic claim as Perfect, but just apply it to the Trunks vs. Freeza case.

When I think the argument through, it reminds me of that one guy at another board, who argued, that Janemba was actually stronger than Gogeta. The guy then claimed, that Gogeta knew this, so he decided to do away with him, before Janemba had the chance to reveal this 'Gogeta Crushing' power.

I mean sure we can't exactly prove his opinion wrong, unless the movie guidebooks/staff members directly state what's what, but seriously?

Debating a childrens cartoon(or observing a debate of a childrens cartoon) has never felt as silly as it did then.
Looking back on this thread, I'm sitting with the same feeling as I did then and I guess that's the last thing, I post in this thread.

[Perfect]

Trunks vs. Freeza only works when analyzing the actual plot devices from an out of universe perspective. Generally out of universe claims should only be brought up for impossibilities, like I dunno, the Power Rangers legitimately being in the Dragon Ball realm and fighting crime. However, I have asked to keep this thread to be thought about through an in universe perspective (at least I think I did). As for the Gogeta claim, the difference is that the person from my understanding didn't propose a theory in which the mechanics would actually let him be stronger, such as I have. If you look at the scene though, Janemba does try to fight back and does fall short, so I'm not entirely sure what's left for interpretation in that respect.