How strong is Grey Buu?

[Axiom]

Yes, I would actually:

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3
Narrator: “Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out…In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo…”

This implies he got stronger in the process of splitting.

No it doesn't - it implies the pressure. When you get hit and your lip swells up, does it get stronger?

[Axiom]

Goku also transformed against Gotenks Buu. We don't know which one Vegeta saw, but that one makes more sense.
And even if he saw it, that doesn't mean he knew how strong anyone was. Vegeta also says that they can handle Pure Buu at first. Oops. And even before that, he thought he could take Fat Buu. Oops.

But Goku believed that he could handle Kid-Buu as well, and was absolutely confident that he could beat Fat-Buu. There goes that theory.

[Kamiccolo9]

Oh, and would you like to show me the quote that says that? No matter what, Vegeta was confident that a Skinny Buu was absolutely beatable by him and Goku.

Goku also transformed against Gotenks Buu. We don't know which one Vegeta saw, but that one makes more sense.
And even if he saw it, that doesn't mean he knew how strong anyone was. Vegeta also says that they can handle Pure Buu at first. Oops. And even before that, he thought he could take Fat Buu. Oops.

But Goku believed that he could handle Kid-Buu as well, and was absolutely confident that he was beat Fat-Buu. There goes that theory.[/quote]
And he was wrong about Pure Buu, wasn't he?
Until Fat Buu got stronger. He gets stronger when he's mad, we see it every time he gets angry. Why would his last mad fit be any different? Explain that.

[Axiom]

Until Fat Buu got stronger. He gets stronger when he's mad, we see it every time he gets angry. Why would his last mad fit be any different? Explain that.

What are you talking about? Goku and Vegeta are both aware of Buu's power - neither believed the threat was larger than something they could handle.

There is no implication that Fat Buu got stronger before the split.
Vegeta is aware of how strong Skinny-Buu is (we base this on him knowing of his existance)
No one in the entire manga makes a comment on the strength of Skinny-Buu.
We KNOW Skinny-Buu represents a fraction of Fat/Majin-Buu's power

and through multiple statements, we also know
Goku is stronger than Fat-Buu
Kid-Buu is portrayed as a substanially larger threat than the Buu's beforehand.

[Kamiccolo9]

Until Fat Buu got stronger. He gets stronger when he's mad, we see it every time he gets angry. Why would his last mad fit be any different? Explain that.

What are you talking about? Goku and Vegeta are both aware of Buu's power - neither believed the threat was larger than something they could handle.

There is no implication that Fat Buu got stronger before the split.
Vegeta is aware of how strong Skinny-Buu is (we base this on him knowing of his existance)
No one in the entire manga makes a comment on the strength of Skinny-Buu.
We KNOW Skinny-Buu represents a fraction of Fat/Majin-Buu's power

and through multiple statements, we also know
Goku is stronger than Fat-Buu
Kid-Buu is portrayed as a substanially larger threat than the Buu's beforehand.

Until it was. Goku never beat Pure Buu on his own.
He got stronger every time he got angry before. Why would this time be different?
No, it just means he knows of his existence.
We don't see anyone's reaction to Gray Buu.
Of Fat Buu's full power. He's made of the same parts as Super Buu. Where did all the extra power that Fat Buu wasn't using go, I wonder?
Goku was stronger than Fat Buu at the time of their fight. Fat Buu also never powered up against Goku. He never got mad.
And Pure Buu is an ant compared to any of the Super Buus.

[Axiom]

Until Fat Buu got stronger. He gets stronger when he's mad, we see it every time he gets angry. Why would his last mad fit be any different? Explain that.

What are you talking about? Goku and Vegeta are both aware of Buu's power - neither believed the threat was larger than something they could handle.

There is no implication that Fat Buu got stronger before the split.
Vegeta is aware of how strong Skinny-Buu is (we base this on him knowing of his existance)
No one in the entire manga makes a comment on the strength of Skinny-Buu.
We KNOW Skinny-Buu represents a fraction of Fat/Majin-Buu's power

and through multiple statements, we also know
Goku is stronger than Fat-Buu
Kid-Buu is portrayed as a substanially larger threat than the Buu's beforehand.

Until it was. Goku never beat Pure Buu on his own.
He got stronger every time he got angry before. Why would this time be different?
No, it just means he knows of his existence.
We don't see anyone's reaction to Gray Buu.
Of Fat Buu's full power. He's made of the same parts as Super Buu. Where did all the extra power that Fat Buu wasn't using go, I wonder?
Goku was stronger than Fat Buu at the time of their fight. Fat Buu also never powered up against Goku. He never got mad.
And Pure Buu is an ant compared to any of the Super Buus.

Because every time he got angry before, we were told he got stronger, and even if he did get stronger, Vegeta and Goku are completely confident in their ability to beat him. Keep trying to fight this losing battle, keep trying to make things work by adding in theories that never were implied in the story. I mean if it makes sense, there has to be something, some statement that lends credence to your theory, right? But alas there is none, just a single page full of gag scenes that's as silly as this conversation.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because every time he got angry before, we were told he got stronger, and even if he did get stronger, Vegeta and Goku are completely confident in their ability to beat him. Keep trying to fight this losing battle, keep trying to make things work by adding in theories that never were implied in the story. I mean if it makes sense, there has to be something, some statement that lends credence to your theory, right? But alas there is none, just a single page full of gag scenes that's as silly as this conversation.

There's plenty of evidence that supports it. Which you would know if you actually paid attention to what's been said in the thread. But it goes against your preconceived notions of Goku's strength, so of course it has to be wrong.
Like I said in the other thread, believe what you want. I'll do the same, knowing that I have enough sufficient evidence to convince myself, that doesn't require warping what's in the manga.

[Axiom]

Because every time he got angry before, we were told he got stronger, and even if he did get stronger, Vegeta and Goku are completely confident in their ability to beat him. Keep trying to fight this losing battle, keep trying to make things work by adding in theories that never were implied in the story. I mean if it makes sense, there has to be something, some statement that lends credence to your theory, right? But alas there is none, just a single page full of gag scenes that's as silly as this conversation.

There's plenty of evidence that supports it. Which you would know if you actually paid attention to what's been said in the thread. But it goes against your preconceived notions of Goku's strength, so of course it has to be wrong.

Oh I'm still interested, so show me statements from the Guidebooks, Anime and Manga that support this. If it's something that's as obvious as you believe it to be, surely there is clear evidence to support this perspective, right? No fan theories.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because every time he got angry before, we were told he got stronger, and even if he did get stronger, Vegeta and Goku are completely confident in their ability to beat him. Keep trying to fight this losing battle, keep trying to make things work by adding in theories that never were implied in the story. I mean if it makes sense, there has to be something, some statement that lends credence to your theory, right? But alas there is none, just a single page full of gag scenes that's as silly as this conversation.

There's plenty of evidence that supports it. Which you would know if you actually paid attention to what's been said in the thread. But it goes against your preconceived notions of Goku's strength, so of course it has to be wrong.

Oh I'm still interested, so show me statements from the Guidebooks, Anime and Manga that support this. If it's something that's as obvious as you believe it to be, surely there is clear evidence to support this perspective, right? No fan theories.

Numerous people have shown evidence. Read the thread.

[Axiom]

Numerous people have shown evidence. Read the thread.

If you want to be condecending, so be it. But I have read the thread in it's entirety, and I want you to point out this supposed "proof" you are advocating, I don't see it.

[Kamiccolo9]

Numerous people have shown evidence. Read the thread.

If you want to be condecending, so be it. But I have read the thread in it's entirety, and I want you to point out this supposed "proof" you are advocating, I don't see it.

Then you are either blind, or selectively reading, since numerous people have accepted it as evidence. You have addressed none of the points that have been brought up, and are instead just saying that other people are wrong. If you disagree, that's fine. I've managed to have civil debates with multiple people who have disagreed. Don't just show up and say "you're wrong!"
Oh, and it's spelled "condescending."

[Axiom]

Numerous people have shown evidence. Read the thread.

If you want to be condecending, so be it. But I have read the thread in it's entirety, and I want you to point out this supposed "proof" you are advocating, I don't see it.

Then you are either blind, or selectively reading, since numerous people have accepted it as evidence. You have addressed none of the points that have been brought up, and are instead just saying that other people are wrong. If you disagree, that's fine. I've managed to have civil debates with multiple people who have disagreed. Don't just show up and say "you're wrong!"
Oh, and it's spelled "condescending."

I forgot the "s"

You can continue to berate me in a flurry of ad hominem attacks that really don't further the conversation, OR you can just oblige my request. So far it just seems you are avoiding the issue because you can't make an argument for your theory with the context I've given you. It's ok to be wrong; I mean you're probably used to it by now, will one more time make that much of a difference?

[Kamiccolo9]

I forgot the "s"

You can continue to berate me in a flurry of ad hominem attacks that really don't further the conversation, OR you can just oblige my request. So far it just seems you are avoiding the issue because you can't make an argument for your theory with the context I've given you. It's ok to be wrong; I mean you're probably used to it by now, will one more time make that much of a difference?

I've made numerous arguments to numerous people in this thread. Show me something new.

[Axiom]

I forgot the "s"

You can continue to berate me in a flurry of ad hominem attacks that really don't further the conversation, OR you can just oblige my request. So far it just seems you are avoiding the issue because you can't make an argument for your theory with the context I've given you. It's ok to be wrong; I mean you're probably used to it by now, will one more time make that much of a difference?

I've made numerous arguments to numerous people in this thread. Show me something new.

I'm just going to take it as you know that you have nothing to stand on; you're almost as bad as undertaker at this point. If you don't want to add to the conversation any further, just don't comment, I’m tired of the passive aggressive bullshit.

[Kamiccolo9]

I forgot the "s"

You can continue to berate me in a flurry of ad hominem attacks that really don't further the conversation, OR you can just oblige my request. So far it just seems you are avoiding the issue because you can't make an argument for your theory with the context I've given you. It's ok to be wrong; I mean you're probably used to it by now, will one more time make that much of a difference?

I've made numerous arguments to numerous people in this thread. Show me something new.

I'm just going to take it as you know that you have nothing to stand on; you're almost as bad as undertaker at this point. If you don't want to add to the conversation any further, just don't comment, I’m tired of the passive aggressive bullshit.

Why should I waste my time arguing with someone who's not going to acknowledge reasonable evidence anyway?

[Axiom]

Why should I waste my time arguing with someone who's not going to acknowledge reasonable evidence anyway?

WHAT EVIDENCE- SHOW ME! Don't direct me to "read the thread" I've done that, I want you to present your theory here and now. You have my attention, now accept my challenge.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why should I waste my time arguing with someone who's not going to acknowledge reasonable evidence anyway?

WHAT EVIDENCE- SHOW ME! Don't direct me to "read the thread" I've done that, I want you to present your theory here and now. You have my attention, now accept my challenge.

Fine.
Fat Buu and Super Buu are composed of the same parts. Dai Kaioshin, South Kaioshin, and Pure Buu. This is a fact. It can't be debated. They have the same amount of power inside them, yet Fat Buu cannot access this power due to Dai Kaioshin's good heart sealing the power.
Fat Buu's power increases when he is angry. We see this once against Dabura, and twice against Vegeta. When he's mad, he shoots out steam. Again, fact.
Fat Buu never gets angry against Goku. He never shoots out steam, and he's smiling the whole time. Therefore, he never powers up against Goku.
My theory is that when Buu is angry, the evil power in him allows him to overcome Dai Kaioshin's influence.
When Mr. Satan gets shot, Buu becomes the angriest he's ever been. His anger is said to swell. And since Buu powers up when he's angry, he was growing stronger during this time as well. Why wouldn't he?
He gets so mad, that all the evil ki becomes a separate being. The manga specifically says ALL the evil in him. And all the evil in Fat Buu is Pure Buu. So Gray Buu is made up of, at least, all of Pure Buu's energy, since ALL of Fat Buu's evil went into him. Additionally, some Kaioshin power probably also went into him, since Gray Buu wears Kaioshin clothing. Yet, as he is Pure Evil, there is no negative Kaioshin influence.
Mr. Buu got everything else.
Gray Buu easily dominates Mr. Buu, while Pure Buu has to put up a fight. So Gray Buu is either equal to or stronger than Pure Buu.
This look about right Random?

But you believe that Pure Buu is stronger than Super Buu, and this doesn't fit that. So I don't see why you care.

[RandomGuy96]

Fine.
Fat Buu and Super Buu are composed of the same parts. Dai Kaioshin, South Kaioshin, and Pure Buu. This is a fact. It can't be debated. They have the same amount of power inside them, yet Fat Buu cannot access this power due to Dai Kaioshin's good heart sealing the power.
Fat Buu's power increases when he is angry. We see this once against Dabura, and twice against Vegeta. When he's mad, he shoots out steam. Again, fact.
Fat Buu never gets angry against Goku. He never shoots out steam, and he's smiling the whole time. Therefore, he never powers up against Goku.
My theory is that when Buu is angry, the evil power in him allows him to overcome Dai Kaioshin's influence.
When Mr. Satan gets shot, Buu becomes the angriest he's ever been. His anger is said to swell. And since Buu powers up when he's angry, he was growing stronger during this time as well. Why wouldn't he?
He gets so mad, that all the evil ki becomes a separate being. The manga specifically says ALL the evil in him. And all the evil in Fat Buu is Pure Buu. So Gray Buu is made up of, at least, all of Pure Buu's energy, since ALL of Fat Buu's evil went into him. Additionally, some Kaioshin power probably also went into him, since Gray Buu wears Kaioshin clothing. Yet, as he is Pure Evil, there is no negative Kaioshin influence.
Mr. Buu got everything else.
Gray Buu easily dominates Mr. Buu, while Pure Buu has to put up a fight. So Gray Buu is either equal to or stronger than Pure Buu.
This look about right Random?

But you believe that Pure Buu is stronger than Super Buu, and this doesn't fit that. So I don't see why you care.

Seems about right. I think that showing one guy doing way better than another against the exact same opponent is probably the simplest and most basic way of showing who is stronger... but apparently not. That South Kaioshin and Pure Buu power is in there somewhere, and when he split, it had to go somewhere. And since the manga outright said ALL of the evil went into Grey Buu...

[Axiom]

Why should I waste my time arguing with someone who's not going to acknowledge reasonable evidence anyway?

WHAT EVIDENCE- SHOW ME! Don't direct me to "read the thread" I've done that, I want you to present your theory here and now. You have my attention, now accept my challenge.

Fine.
Fat Buu and Super Buu are composed of the same parts. Dai Kaioshin, South Kaioshin, and Pure Buu. This is a fact. It can't be debated. They have the same amount of power inside them, yet Fat Buu cannot access this power due to Dai Kaioshin's good heart sealing the power.
Fat Buu's power increases when he is angry. We see this once against Dabura, and twice against Vegeta. When he's mad, he shoots out steam. Again, fact.
Fat Buu never gets angry against Goku. He never shoots out steam, and he's smiling the whole time. Therefore, he never powers up against Goku.
My theory is that when Buu is angry, the evil power in him allows him to overcome Dai Kaioshin's influence.
When Mr. Satan gets shot, Buu becomes the angriest he's ever been. His anger is said to swell. And since Buu powers up when he's angry, he was growing stronger during this time as well. Why wouldn't he?
He gets so mad, that all the evil ki becomes a separate being. The manga specifically says ALL the evil in him. And all the evil in Fat Buu is Pure Buu. So Gray Buu is made up of, at least, all of Pure Buu's energy, since ALL of Fat Buu's evil went into him. Additionally, some Kaioshin power probably also went into him, since Gray Buu wears Kaioshin clothing. Yet, as he is Pure Evil, there is no negative Kaioshin influence.
Mr. Buu got everything else.
Gray Buu easily dominates Mr. Buu, while Pure Buu has to put up a fight. So Gray Buu is either equal to or stronger than Pure Buu.
This look about right Random?

But you believe that Pure Buu is stronger than Super Buu, and this doesn't fit that. So I don't see why you care.

My problem with your theory is twofold - one you specifically make a distinction that power's change without them being noted, which is fair, but you then point out that because Buu was smiling he didn't power up. How do we draw this distinction? The steam? The smile or frown? Next, right before the split, no change in power was noted, and the Narrator specifically comments on the change in nature, and the transfer in power. Why? And finally the most damning statement was Goku's actual fight against Buu - Goku fought Fat-Buu before, as had Vegeta, and both of them were aware of his change in forms from Fat to Super (Goku was shown to be watching from otherworld) he would have a good indicator of what Fat buu was capable of and was still confident that he could win. With Kid-buu that was less clear to no only Goku, but everyone else.

I won't comment on the Kia's power - too hypothetical for me to deal with.

[Kamiccolo9]

My problem with your theory is twofold - one you specifically make a distinction that power's change without them being noted, which is fair, but you then point out that because Buu was smiling he didn't power up. How do we draw this distinction? The steam? The smile or frown? Next, right before the split, no change in power was noted, and the Narrator specifically comments on the change in nature, and the transfer in power. Why? And finally the most damning statement was Goku's actual fight against Buu - Goku fought Fat-Buu before, as had Vegeta, and both of them were aware of his change in forms from Fat to Super (Goku was shown to be watching from otherworld) he would have a good indicator of what Fat buu was capable of and was still confident that he could win. With Kid-buu that was less clear to no only Goku, but everyone else.

I won't comment on the Kia's power - too hypothetical for me to deal with.

Both the steam and the smile. Buu was having the time of his life against Goku. He definitely wasn't mad there.
No change in power was noted, but also, nobody's reaction was shown. Seeing as nobody commented on Gohan's power changing, except Buu, and nobody noticed Goku's power decreasing during his fight until after it had already happened, I don't think this matters. And Goku wasn't watching the Buu's from otherworld; he felt Super Buu and wondered what was going on. Goku had no idea about the whole Mr. Buu/Gray Buu thing.
Vegeta was watching from other world, but no one ever said he sensed them. He was in another dimension, after all. All he knew was that both Mr. Buu and Gray Buu would be weaker than Super Buu, and he had extreme confidence in Super Saiyan 3. But seeing as SSJ3 Goku was unable to stop Pure Buu like Vegeta thought he would, it's clear that Vegeta overestimated SSJ3 Goku. And Vegeta also thought that he could take Fat Buu, which was obviously false, so his power sensing skills are in question in this arc.

As for the Kaioshins, you can't really leave them out of this conversation. They were there the whole time, and their power had to go somewhere. It didn't just disappear when Buu split. And there's also the quote in the manga about Gray Buu getting all of Buu's evil, and, as we find out later, the evil in Fat Buu is Pure Buu. So Gray Buu has to have all the power tha Pure Buu had.

Also, thank you for being civil. I apologize for my behavior earlier; it was uncalled for.