"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[RandomGuy96]

It wasn't a personal attack. I think it's ridiculous that it doesn't draw out all of Gohan's dormant power. That's not what is implied when you read that scene. He doesn't say he can awaken "some" sleeping power, he just says sleeping power.

He doesn't say "all" either, and we know for a fact that it wasn't all.

[ABED]

Oolong had already stopped Pilaf by the time Oozaru Goku attacked. And how is Oozaru Goku not a villain? He was attacking innocent people and trying to hurt them.

He's not doing it consciously. Goku is gone by that point, the ape is nothing more than a wild animal.

He doesn't say "all" either, and we know for a fact that it wasn't all.

Then it's up in the air because I dont' think I'm alone in inferring that he meant all, because if he didn't release all of it, either he couldn't sense it or couldn't bring it out. We know Toriyama often gives characters boosts for narrative expediency, so why would Gohan be any different?

[Kid Buu]

Oolong had already stopped Pilaf by the time Oozaru Goku attacked. And how is Oozaru Goku not a villain? He was attacking innocent people and trying to hurt them.

He's not doing it consciously. Goku is gone by that point, the ape is nothing more than a wild animal.

He's still the bad guy regardless even if he's not doing it consciously.

[RandomGuy96]

I thought that you'd made an error and meant to say that Goku was the villain of the last two arcs. He did willingly let the androids get constructed and was responsible for the resurrection of Buu.

[B]

But so was Gohan.
...

-The majority of the Genki Dama's power was his.

No... it wasn't? We see all the main characters give their energy to the Genki Dama and it's only ever big enough to do anything until the rest of the planet gives in. That's the whole point of the scene. That the Earthlings saved themselves(and the Genki Dama actually works). It all ties into the "this is the end of the story" atmosphere the Buu arc spends its time building.

[ABED]

Oolong had already stopped Pilaf by the time Oozaru Goku attacked. And how is Oozaru Goku not a villain? He was attacking innocent people and trying to hurt them.

He's not doing it consciously. Goku is gone by that point, the ape is nothing more than a wild animal.

He's still the bad guy regardless even if he's not doing it consciously.

antagonist maybe, but not bad guy. Bad implies choice.

He did willingly let the androids get constructed and was responsible for the resurrection of Buu.

He wasn't alone, Vegeta was also responsible for Buu. As for the cyborgs, no one but Bulma raised any objection.

[RandomGuy96]

But so was Gohan.
...

-The majority of the Genki Dama's power was his.

No... it wasn't? We see all the main characters give their energy to the Genki Dama and it's only ever big enough to do anything until the rest of the planet gives in. That's the whole point of the scene. That the Earthlings saved themselves(and the Genki Dama actually works). It all ties into the "this is the end of the story" atmosphere the Buu arc spends its time building.

We know for a fact that Gohan was many times stronger than any other character at that point; hundreds to thousands of times stronger if you go by the guidebooks. So pretty much all of the non-Earthling power came from him. After Goku gets the ki of "Gohan and the others", he notes that the Genki Dama is powerful but that "even this is probably not enough to kill Buu", implying that it's close (otherwise, he wouldn't need to question whether or not it was strong enough). The Earthlings' ki just pushed it over the limit from "it might work" to "it will definitely work".

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo!"

He wasn't alone, Vegeta was also responsible for Buu. As for the cyborgs, no one but Bulma raised any objection.

I didn't feel like Vegeta was worth noting, as we already knew he was a villain.

[Kid Buu]

He's not doing it consciously. Goku is gone by that point, the ape is nothing more than a wild animal.

He's still the bad guy regardless even if he's not doing it consciously.

antagonist maybe, but not bad guy. Bad implies choice.

Well okay; finally antagonist that the heroes have to face then.

(Although I suppose in the Cell arc you can actually say it was Future Trunks beating Future Cell though)

[ABED]

I didn't feel like Vegeta was worth noting, as we already knew he was a villain.

Fair enough, but given Toriyama's propensity for not planning ahead, I don't consider Goku at fault for Buu's resurrection. He was fighting Vegeta to his maximum for all anyone knew. Does anyone know when Toriyama thought up SS3?

(Although I suppose in the Cell arc you can actually say it was Future Trunks beating Future Cell though)

Future Cell is the final bad guy but not the main bad guy of that arc. Speaking of which, getting to the main point of the thread, I like that Toriyama ends with Trunks saving his timeline. It gives a great resolution to that story.

[Zephyr]

The majority of the posts have amounted to simply "Yeah, those are issues, but DBZ is still the awesomezzz!" People get on me about not explaining things, when ironically enough, nobody is giving me any good reasons as to why DBZ is good.

I suppose that would be true if you were to ignore the many posts demonstrating exactly what you're looking for. Such as:

- The diversity and silliness of the world itself.
- The mix of sci-fi and fantasy.
- The character name puns.
- Tons of Daoist and eastern references and symbolism.
- The art.
- The choreography.

The Buu arc in particular is incredibly self aware of how the series had become up to that point. Goku making a comment over how "unlocking potential" has already been done before. A new transformation showing up....and not actually saving the day. Gotenks, having the same hairstyle and attack-naming-pattern as Vegeta. He even tries to deliberately "pull a Vegeta" and make the situation look worse, only to actually save the day (in his own mind, that is). It even concludes with the helpless, stupid Earthlings actually making themselves useful and helping to save the day (and even Mr. Satan actually helping save the world in a significant way).

Then there are more little things that warrant appreciation as well. Mr. Satan steals the credit of saving world from Gohan, and Gohan inadvertently gets his by getting with his daughter.

If you don't find any of the things people are listing as reasons why you could justify liking Dragon Ball Z, that's fine. But don't pretend that people aren't listing reasons.

[TripleRach]

Oolong had already stopped Pilaf by the time Oozaru Goku attacked.

Oolong stopped Pilaf from using the Dragon Balls, but Pilaf was still able to lock them up in that oven prison where they would have fried if not for Gokuu's transformation busting them out. As much Oozaru Gokuu was a threat, he also saved their lives at the same time. Destroying Pilaf's castle probably helped set Pilaf back too, losing a lot of his equipment and whatnot.

[Kid Buu]

Villains can still help heroes too; like Vegeta in the Namek arc!

Heroes can also still help villain too; like Vegeta in the Cell arc!

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

Outside the movies and GT, I actually dont think he even beat anyone himself after dragonball. He just advanced the progress of the good guys.

[Kid Buu]

To be fair Goku was basically involved with every big bad's defeat. The only exception are the first two arc, because he was the final villain of those arcs.

Outside the movies and GT, I actually dont think he even beat anyone himself after dragonball. He just advanced the progress of the good guys.

Nappa, Recoome, Burter, Jeice, Yakon?

[thatdbzguy]

I suppose that would be true if you were to ignore the many posts demonstrating exactly what you're looking fo. If you don't find any of the things people are listing as reasons why you could justify liking Dragon Ball Z, that's fine. But don't pretend that people aren't listing reasons.

None of the reasons you listed are objective qualities, like character depth, story complexity, etc.

[Kamiccolo9]

I suppose that would be true if you were to ignore the many posts demonstrating exactly what you're looking fo. If you don't find any of the things people are listing as reasons why you could justify liking Dragon Ball Z, that's fine. But don't pretend that people aren't listing reasons.

None of the reasons you listed are objective qualities, like character depth, story complexity, etc.

So, instead of actually addressing people's points, you say "nah, that doesn't count." Right. You refuse to defend your posts, you ignore the vast majority of the points raised against you, basically all of your replies in this thread have been one sentence "nuh-uh" posts...
People have pointed out depth in characters. This has been discussed, which you would know if you haven't been ignoring the posts.
Story complexity is not an "objectively good" thing. Why can't a work of literature have a simple story? Is The Cat in the Hat "objectively bad?"


You really need to look up the meaning of "objective." I don't think you know what it means.

[Draken]

I suppose that would be true if you were to ignore the many posts demonstrating exactly what you're looking fo. If you don't find any of the things people are listing as reasons why you could justify liking Dragon Ball Z, that's fine. But don't pretend that people aren't listing reasons.

None of the reasons you listed are objective qualities, like character depth, story complexity, etc.

None of the reasons you listed are reasons that make a story objectively bad either.

[thatdbzguy]

I suppose that would be true if you were to ignore the many posts demonstrating exactly what you're looking fo. If you don't find any of the things people are listing as reasons why you could justify liking Dragon Ball Z, that's fine. But don't pretend that people aren't listing reasons.

None of the reasons you listed are objective qualities, like character depth, story complexity, etc.

None of the reasons you listed are reasons that make a story objectively bad either.

So plot holes, inconsistencies, and plots with hardly any depth are good?

[thatdbzguy]

Here's a good post explaining why DB is better than DBZ:

I recently rewatched every episode from both series and have found DB to be the much better show. DB is more plot driven and puts more of an emphasis on the martial arts aspect of fighting. I found that DBZ is way to obsessed with power levels and energy blasts. DB also had a better written story that was more engaging. DB substitutes most of idle talk between the fight sequences in Dragonball Z with humor. Little happens in 5 episodes in DBZ. Characters in DB are more developed and innocent compared to DBZ. Plus DBZ was extremely repetitive. New foe appears. Z fighters hold him off while Goku is unavailable until the epic Goku return (waiting for Goku against Nappa, Ginyu Force, Cell, Buu). DB seemed to stray away from this repetiveness. And back to the fighting. The fighting is SO MUCH BETTER in DB. In DBZ, the fighting becomes too ridiculous and loses any sense of reality. Yes DB had energy blasts but they were rare and thus, much more special. DB had more of an emphasis on actual physical combat. DBZs fighting consisted of big attacks with boring filler combat in between (spamming energy blasts and back-and-forth punches and kicks). Anyways as you can see, I find Dragonball to not just be better, but much better.

There's a reason why most people who've seen both prefer DB over DBZ.

[rereboy]

So plot holes, inconsistencies, and plots with hardly any depth are good?

In theory, they are not good, but the fact that they exist doesn't mean that a series will be bad, just that the series would probably be better if it had less of them.

Also, a series can have less plotholes and whatnot than another and be worse than it, because its positives aren't no where near as good.

You train of thought is way too formulaic and static. But then again, you are just a troll, so...

Here's a good post explaining why DB is better than DBZ:

I recently rewatched every episode from both series and have found DB to be the much better show. DB is more plot driven and puts more of an emphasis on the martial arts aspect of fighting. I found that DBZ is way to obsessed with power levels and energy blasts. DB also had a better written story that was more engaging. DB substitutes most of idle talk between the fight sequences in Dragonball Z with humor. Little happens in 5 episodes in DBZ. Characters in DB are more developed and innocent compared to DBZ. Plus DBZ was extremely repetitive. New foe appears. Z fighters hold him off while Goku is unavailable until the epic Goku return (waiting for Goku against Nappa, Ginyu Force, Cell, Buu). DB seemed to stray away from this repetiveness. And back to the fighting. The fighting is SO MUCH BETTER in DB. In DBZ, the fighting becomes too ridiculous and loses any sense of reality. Yes DB had energy blasts but they were rare and thus, much more special. DB had more of an emphasis on actual physical combat. DBZs fighting consisted of big attacks with boring filler combat in between (spamming energy blasts and back-and-forth punches and kicks). Anyways as you can see, I find Dragonball to not just be better, but much better.

There's a reason why most people who've seen both prefer DB over DBZ.

I thought you were talking about the manga and not DBZ in this topic . Why the need to talk about parts of the same thing instead of the whole thing? DB is just one story, one manga.

Also, once again, its all subjective. A person may think that the DBZ part has positives that outweigh its negatives, and that even outweigh the positives of DB, making it their favorite part of DB.