Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[MagicBox]

I'm talking about Kikuchi's score for Z, not Kai 1.0. And to my knowledge the person who composes the score for a show also chooses where a piece of music plays. The exception to this is the Yamamoto scandal where they hastily grabbed Kikuchi's recordings of random noise and threw it in really quick. As a fair man I don't count that since it isn't his fault, not that his placements for Z were much better in my opinion.

Ignoring all personal opinions, this just isn't true. Take the two episodes you used earlier as examples.

Dragon Ball Z Episode 95: "Transformed At Last!! The Legendary Super Saiyan ・ Son Goku"

Dragon Ball Z Episode 245: "An Astounding, Great Transformation!! Super Saiyan 3"

Music: Shunsuke Kikuchi

Music Selection: Shigeru Miyashita

Kikuchi never placed the music.

EDIT: Dammit, people! Quit posting while I'm typing.

I saw a photo on Facebook that was the picture of Goku's face right as he turned SSJ and the gold aura appeared around him with his eyes turning green and his hair gold. It was captioned "LIKE IF THIS WAS THE MOST BADASS MOMENT OF YOUR CHILDHOOD." And when I think about that I'm thinking to myself, that was so badass. But on here I now ask myself, why? And it's because of the music.

Of course they think the dub music is "badass." It was scored to be "badass." That's neither here nor there.

What everyone's saying is that the scene isn't supposed to be badass. Neither is Super Saiyan 3. They're supposed to be frightening. Unpredictable. Suspenseful. Not "Awww, yeah, son! NOW we're talkin'!" The scenes are remembered a certain way by dub fans because the people in charge of dubbing misread the scenes and scored them incorrectly. I say that as someone who enjoys listening to the Faulconer Productions tunes separately from the show.

It wasn't just Faulconer who composed the music, by the way. He had a whole team of people who collaborated (and, as we've learned from people like Scott Morgan, were not given their fair share of credit).

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Take the two episodes you used earlier as examples.

Dragon Ball Z Episode 95: "Transformed At Last!! The Legendary Super Saiyan ・ Son Goku"

Dragon Ball Z Episode 245: "An Astounding, Great Transformation!! Super Saiyan 3"

Music: Shunsuke Kikuchi

Music Selection: Shigeru Miyashita

Kikuchi never placed the music.

Flaming fishsticks!! I seriously never knew that, as in most movies and other television shows it seems like the score creator does choose where tracks go.

I saw a photo on Facebook that was the picture of Goku's face right as he turned SSJ and the gold aura appeared around him with his eyes turning green and his hair gold. It was captioned "LIKE IF THIS WAS THE MOST BADASS MOMENT OF YOUR CHILDHOOD." And when I think about that I'm thinking to myself, that was so badass. But on here I now ask myself, why? And it's because of the music.

Of course they think the dub music is "badass." It was scored to be "badass." That's neither here nor there.

What everyone's saying is that the scene isn't supposed to be badass. Neither is Super Saiyan 3. They're supposed to be frightening. Unpredictable. Suspenseful. Not "Awww, yeah, son! NOW we're talkin'!" The scenes are remembered a certain way by dub fans because the people in charge of dubbing misread the scenes and scored them incorrectly. I say that as someone who enjoys listening to the Faulconer Productions tunes separately from the show.

From what you're saying it sounds like Faulconer saved the show. Kikuchi did not give that "frightening, unpredictable, suspenseful" tone you're talking about. I hear noise, and I'm giving my honest opinion. It just does not fit with the show in my opinion. To me the show seems much more fit to being badass than what you've described.

It wasn't just Faulconer who composed the music, by the way. He had a whole team of people who collaborated (and, as we've learned from people like Scott Morgan, were not given their fair share of credit).

Well that sucks. I never knew about that. =/

[ABED]

From what you're saying it sounds like Faulconer saved the show. Kikuchi did not give that "frightening, unpredictable, suspenseful" tone you're talking about. I hear noise, and I'm giving my honest opinion. It just does not fit with the show in my opinion. To me the show seems much more fit to being badass than what you've described.

Saved the show? What the HFIL!?

I don't know how you can say that other than you just happen to be used to another score so this clashes with your perception of it. By your own words, the dub was such a part of your youth and that music was a part of it. Just take a close look at the scene. Freeza has just murdered the main character's best friend and threatened to murder his son. Goku, who is usually a joyful and happy person is now super angry and is shaking with anger. The clouds begin to darken. Freeza looks confused, and so does Gohan. Goku lets out a furious yell scaring his son and Freeza. What's Goku's first act after transforming? He yells at his son! He never does that. The audience is supposed to wonder what is up with Goku? He's not only physically different, but has the transformation mentally altered him. The music captures all of that. Those opening piano notes are ominous. Faulconer's music clashes with the visuals.

[kei17]

Flaming fishsticks!! I seriously never knew that, as in most movies and other television shows it seems like the score creator does choose where tracks go.

As I stated in the previous page, in Japan, TV score composers never (or hardly) create pieces for specific scenes nor place their music themselves.

Kikuchi did not give that "frightening, unpredictable, suspenseful" tone you're talking about. I hear noise, and I'm giving my honest opinion.

Yes, it's just your heavily subjective opinion that does not reflect the objective facts at all.

[Big Momma]

From what you're saying it sounds like Faulconer saved the show.

Saved a show that was already a worldwide success?

[kei17]

From what you're saying it sounds like Faulconer saved the show.

Saved a show that was already a worldwide success?

Saved it from bubble-headed patriots by pretending it to be made in America. Just saying.

[MagicBox]

I'm worried about the thread turning into...

"Well, I like this music better!"
"Well, I don't!"

I certainly have opinions to contribute there (and I think most people here know which side I'm on), but I think it's getting us away from the original topic.

"Would DBZ have been as successful on US TV if the original Japanese music was kept?"

I've seen a few people say "yes," but I can't find a reason that doesn't boil down to "Well, it's epic! I like it so much better!" Are these people just talking about the Faulconer Productions music here? Because that's all that ever seems to get mentioned. DBZ had already been airing with the Shuki Levy music for three full years before FUNi started dubbing the show in-house. Wasn't the show already a pretty huge success in America by then? Before Faulconer and crew? Back when we just had Levy (and Kikuchi for the movies)? Would anyone honestly credit Levy's music for making the show "more successful?"

I still maintain that the show would have been just as popular with no changes. It's impossible to prove (we're talking about a hypothetical situation, after all), but I simply can't imagine there being any difference. Dub music fans simply wouldn't exist. The fanbase wouldn't be as divided. We wouldn't have to constantly be doing damage control over inaccurate dub-isms and comparing different music placements in scene after scene after scene. We'd just have memories and nostalgia for the show.

I don't buy the "90s kids" crap. "It was the 90s, man. You just don't understand. Kids were different." I was born in '89. I was the exact demographic DBZ was aiming for in 1996 when the show premiered in America. For people to tell me that the music change was "justified" because I was a simple little child who needed synthesizers instead of an orchestra to "enhance" an action show is beyond condescending. That's the exact same line of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

[Gaffer Tape]

Your comments have intrigued me, kei17, and I wish to ask you a question. Now, as has already been established, Dragon Ball's composer did not place the tracks in the show himself. That's fairly understandable considering that all the cues written specifically for the TV show were stock cues intended to be used repeatedly, and the others were recycled from the movies. All this I knew. However, I did assume those movie cues were scored and placed by Kikuchi. That is, they seemed like they were scored for specific scenes. But your comments in this thread that it's an industry-wide practice seem to infer that even in the movies, Kikuchi just composed pieces with no specific purpose that were later put in where deemed appropriate. Is this true?

[MagicBox]

For what it's worth, the movies don't have a "Music Selection" credit.

I always assumed (like Gaffer Tape) that Kikuchi did indeed completely score the movies, while the TV series was handled by the audio selection people.

[fadeddreams5]

The Faulconer score often suffers from this problem, too. As you say, the SSJ transformation theme is epic and I like it, too, but it's not a proper presentation of the scene. The music should represent Goku's fury and the tension of the situation, but Faulconer's track emphasizes the "hype" for the transformation that viewers are not supposed to know yet. It lacks the drama. Their representation is closer to those of AMVs.

So much shonen anime does this though. As in, go for the hype instead of setting a sort of mood for a scene through a musical piece. For example, when Naruto and the nine-tails unite, and he transforms and begins kicking ass, this theme plays for the first time, associating it with the transformation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D86itLlFeTs

When Ichigo arrives to fight Aizen, this theme plays for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHTgqLwx81c

When Yusuke beat the **** out of Sensui, and also when he finished his battle with Yomi, this theme played for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS0uZUOkHAw

When these songs play in my head, I instantly visualize the scenes from their respective shows that they play in. They really do make those moments more hype. I don't really care about what the scenes are trying to convey, so long as I'm entertained. Faulconer Productions had an entirely different goal from Kikuchi with their music. IMO, they both succeeded in different ways. My only gripe with Faulconer Productions is that their music never shuts up. I'm sure everyone can agree there.

There was never any good enough reason to do something so disrespectful as replacing the music. The show is what it is, and FUNimation's job has never been anything more than to take the show and present it in English. They crossed the line by thinking it needed to be "reversioned" to hold any appeal. If time or budget constraints would have prevented them from doing this back in the 90's... then good. If they failed to secure and release it, then maybe it would have gone to some other company that would have treated it with a modicum of respect from the get-go.

But that's not what happened. FUNimation smeared a rough and raunchy "EXTREME NINETIES CARTOON" stink all over their product back in the day, and it caused lasting damage. We've got people who think Goku's "hope of the universe" speech is the bestest thing ever. We've got people who think Linda Young's Freeza was a brilliantly portrayed masterpiece performance. And we've got people who think Bruce Faulconer's droning, cheap, ear-grating soundtrack is "amazing" and "intense" and should be constantly used in new stuff even today.

Awesome work, FUNimation. Good going.

I get where you're coming from, but I disagree. Thanks to FUNimation, we now have two different versions of the same show, and I think that's awesome. In the end, we're all in it for the characters, story, and action, and thanks to this company, English speaking folks can watch their favorite scenes multiple different ways (counting Ocean dub and Kai).

[MagicBox]

Thanks to FUNimation, we now have two different versions of the same show, and I think that's awesome.

It's interesting to see how opinions differ on this particular subject (which is fine, I suppose), because I happen to feel the exact opposite. I think it's disastrous that we have two versions of everything. When I think back to all the headaches that could have been avoided... ^_^;

[JulieYBM]

Chokkaku was composed for the fourth Bleach film.

[fadeddreams5]

Chokkaku was composed for the fourth Bleach film.

But it first played in the series there.

Thanks to FUNimation, we now have two different versions of the same show, and I think that's awesome.

It's interesting to see how opinions differ on this particular subject (which is fine, I suppose), because I happen to feel the exact opposite. I think it's disastrous that we have two versions of everything. When I think back to all the headaches that could have been avoided... ^_^;

Well, the headaches usually involve the divided fan base and flame wars. But, I don't take part in any of that, so I can enjoy both versions. : D

[Kakacarrottop]

I'm worried about the thread turning into...

"Well, I like this music better!"
"Well, I don't!"

I certainly have opinions to contribute there (and I think most people here know which side I'm on), but I think it's getting us away from the original topic.

"Would DBZ have been as successful on US TV if the original Japanese music was kept?"

I've seen a few people say "yes," but I can't find a reason that doesn't boil down to "Well, it's epic! I like it so much better!" Are these people just talking about the Faulconer Productions music here? Because that's all that ever seems to get mentioned. DBZ had already been airing with the Shuki Levy music for three full years before FUNi started dubbing the show in-house. Wasn't the show already a pretty huge success in America by then? Before Faulconer and crew? Back when we just had Levy (and Kikuchi for the movies)? Would anyone honestly credit Levy's music for making the show "more successful?"

If Levy's music was used in as many episodes as Faulconer's then people would be crediting him for making DBZ popular in America and his videos would be getting millions of views on Youtube. All this Faulconer popularity in recent years is because of a tidal wave of Toonami related nostalgia, back when he first took over everyone hated his music, and rightfully so since he was essentially a budget replacement for Levy.

[JulieYBM]

Then I guess I shouldn't mention that My Name was composed for Naruto: Road to Ninja, either. As for when Naruto and Kurama first fight in synch together, that actually is a triumphant moment. Gokuu's Super Saiyan transformation and later Super Saiyan 3 form isn't a triumphant moment, they are dark, foreboding scenes with palpable sense of panic, especially in the latter.

[fadeddreams5]

Then I guess I shouldn't mention that My Name was composed for Naruto: Road to Ninja, either. As for when Naruto and Kurama first fight in synch together, that actually is a triumphant moment. Gokuu's Super Saiyan transformation and later Super Saiyan 3 form isn't a triumphant moment, they are dark, foreboding scenes with palpable sense of panic, especially in the latter.

Yeah, my point is when they played in the series. They're meant to generate a sense of hype, and can easily be associated to the scenes they play in. I don't see anything like that, triumphant moment or not, playing in Kikuchi's track, which is more atmospheric and less hype-inducing. Sure, it fits and conveys what the original writer may have wanted to capture from the scenes, but it's...well...boring.

I heard people hating on Kai's Final Chapter themes too. I thought the theme that played during Goku's SSJ3 transformation was a huge improvement, cool, and properly chaotic, but people argued it doesn't capture the essence of the scene, which is supposed to express panic and mystery over a transformation we're not supposed to know about. The new theme apparently expects us to already know about SSJ3, or something. I fall in love with Majin Vegeta's death themes, and I'm told it completely missed the point that Toriyama was trying to evoke. Come on, man...idc about that. It's DBZ...pew pew pew...lasers. Hype! lol.

[kei17]

Your comments have intrigued me, kei17, and I wish to ask you a question. Now, as has already been established, Dragon Ball's composer did not place the tracks in the show himself. That's fairly understandable considering that all the cues written specifically for the TV show were stock cues intended to be used repeatedly, and the others were recycled from the movies. All this I knew. However, I did assume those movie cues were scored and placed by Kikuchi. That is, they seemed like they were scored for specific scenes. But your comments in this thread that it's an industry-wide practice seem to infer that even in the movies, Kikuchi just composed pieces with no specific purpose that were later put in where deemed appropriate. Is this true?

When it comes to movies, composers do write pieces for specific scenes, but they tend to be forced to do it during the early stage of production, so a lot of tracks end up being chopped up, moved, unsued, or even replaced with recycled tracks from TV series. In DB's case, the movie scores were produced in the following steps:

1) The direcor writes in music lines in the story board.
2) Creates a music menu with the neccesary info written in it (playback time, purpose, atmosphere, leitmotif, etc.)
3) Kikuchi composes the score (maybe by seeing the unfinished footage.)
4) The director carries out the final check on the score. During this proccess, some tracks can be edited or omitted.

Some anime movies are scored with very little information provided to the composers. For example, the Doraemon movies in the Kikuchi era had nearly half of their tracks replaced, heavily edited or recycled from previous movies or the TV series.

Come on, man...idc about that. It's DBZ...pew pew pew...lasers. Hype! lol.

So, this is your idea: DBZ is a brain-dead action show which is consist of just laser beams flying like pew pew pew, so it doesn't need dramas and just some badass music thrown in would suffice.

Then you should turn off your TV speakers while watching DBZ, play some your favorite badass hyping music and headbang in front of the TV. That would be an awesome experience.

[Kakacarrottop]

Come on, man...idc about that. It's DBZ...pew pew pew...lasers. Hype! lol.

You must of been the music adviser at Funimation who added all those low brow metal bands to the movies

[fadeddreams5]

So, this is your idea: DBZ is a brain-dead action show which is consist of just laser beams flying like pew pew pew, so it doesn't need dramas and just some badass music thrown in would suffice.

Then you should turn off your TV speakers while watching DBZ, play some your favorite badass hyping music and headbang in front of the TV. That would be an awesome experience.

That part was a joke. Well, partially. It really is an over-the-top show that's less orientated on deep story-telling, and more on action and character interactions. You can have both drama and hype. I gave you examples of other anime that use music to generate hype, but it's not non-stop in every scene. I may like Faulconer, but like I mentioned, it also doesn't know when to shut up. Besides that tidbit, Faulconer makes the experience more, well, fun than Kikuchi's OST for me. I like Yamamoto too. That's more important to me than conveying a sense of drama in a show with aliens, humanoid animals, and yeah, pew pew pew...lasers. =P

Come on, man...idc about that. It's DBZ...pew pew pew...lasers. Hype! lol.

You must of been the music adviser at Funimation who added all those low brow metal bands to the movies

Drats. My secret identity is revealed!

[Attitudefan]

Your comments have intrigued me, kei17, and I wish to ask you a question. Now, as has already been established, Dragon Ball's composer did not place the tracks in the show himself. That's fairly understandable considering that all the cues written specifically for the TV show were stock cues intended to be used repeatedly, and the others were recycled from the movies. All this I knew. However, I did assume those movie cues were scored and placed by Kikuchi. That is, they seemed like they were scored for specific scenes. But your comments in this thread that it's an industry-wide practice seem to infer that even in the movies, Kikuchi just composed pieces with no specific purpose that were later put in where deemed appropriate. Is this true?

Kei already answered this, but being part of the movie scene myself, a lot of times the composer will not place his music within the show (more so with weekly serializations than block-buster films, for time/budget reason), so the sound mixer or music editor will take up the job to place the music within the show with direction from the director and producers.

Composers are working on multiple projects, and if it is not a big budget film, they have to work on as many projects as possible since they are contracted to do their job. There may be stretches of times where they do not work on anything. So they have to keep themselves as free as possible. Scoring =/= to placement. Like a Foley Artist may record the sound, he may not be the sound editor/mixer.

I think even John Williams score was re-edited in the original Star Wars films to fit the re-edits of the film.

Even the Faulconer Guys made the score but did not place it, where the FUNi employees re-edited the soundtrack (which was on the singles, yet much of those edits by the mixer was undone for the Orange Brick releases).

Shuki Levy was a popular composer, and no doubt worked on many works during his time in Dragonball, and there is no reason to believe he would have done the placement for the show. Most of the time, scores are done even before the first draft edits!

Cowboy Bebop had the voice acting performed on finished story boards and rough animation, but not on completed animation. I think the score was created long before they even started to animate. It's in one of the Japanese audio commentaries that came with the Cowboy Bebop Remix DVD set that was released about a decade ago. I think it was mentioned on one of the first episodes, and I know for a fact that the voice acting stuff was mentioned on Episode 24, as it was one of the few times the voice actors saw the completed animation, and were surprised in how beautiful it all came together in the end.