Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by HeroR » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:23 pm

TheMikado wrote:They are literally fighting Gods and doing illegal time travel. There are no consequences to anything, especially with Whis and Beerus around. More importantly they now how the Omniking who can literally destroy multiple universes at will. If he decided Black was too much of a threat then Poof. Remember in DBZ when we find out literally the Gods can't help them because the threat was so great? Not now, especially not that Goku And the King of the everything are on like a first name basis now... There is literally no consequences to them failing at this point, yet somehow Future Trunks ends up with the worse life possible...
There haven't been real consequences in Dragon Ball since they could used the Namekian's Dragon Balls any time they feel like it. And given logic, the King of All always existed in the Dragon World have have shit to help the characters before. And the illegal time travel was done in the Android/Cell Saga.

Future Trunks' life sucks because he has no Dragon Balls, no access to the Namekian Dragon Balls, and doesn't have Goku around to protect everyone and become friends with people like Beerus and Whis.
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You do not know if Piccolo would have lost he could have possibly be able to beat both Magetta and Cabba. Magetta is not good in the air and hates being insulted which I am sure Piccolo would have said something.
Unless Piccolo started smack talking, he wasn't going past Megetta, especially since Megetta's weakness wasn't readily known except to Whis and Vados. Nothing Piccolo could have done would have allowed him to stun Megetta like Vegeta did. I guess he could have blew up the ring. But, nothing him Piccolo's history shows him going past Cabba.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:30 pm

HeroR wrote:There haven't been real consequences in Dragon Ball since they could used the Namekian's Dragon Balls any time they feel like it.
That didn't change anything cause they wouldn't be able to use them if they were all dead.

Beerus will want Goku and Vegeta to fight for him in the 12 universe tournament so if he thinks Black or anyone else is a real threat to their lives he'll just step in and kill them or have Whis do it.

Earth ? they like its food so that also safe.
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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:39 pm

sintzu wrote:
HeroR wrote:There haven't been real consequences in Dragon Ball since they could used the Namekian's Dragon Balls any time they feel like it.
That didn't change anything cause they wouldn't be able to use them if they were all dead.

Beerus will want Goku and Vegeta to fight for him in the 12 universe tournament so if he thinks Black or anyone else is a real threat to their lives he'll just step in and kill them or have Whis do it.

Earth ? they like its food so that also safe.
Exactly and HeroR you know Goku STAYED dead for years. He knows he was partly responsible not only for helping Cell but attracting trouble in general which is what he selflessly for a change decided to stay dead. Also that's why it's weird he seems to be starting EVEN more trouble then ever before after that character arc he made. Vegeta? He knew he F'ed up when he let Cell get that strong and came to that realization again with Buu and messing around with Babidi. He was prepared to die with his new characters arc.

This is a far cry from Goku messing with Beerus after King ki told him not to, dropping his guard on Frieza after he basically F'ed up everyone Goku cared about, then knowing the repercussions of losing the tournament, messes around again and throws an important fight. In every one of those scenarios there was zero guarantee the dragonballs could have helped them and in each Goku acts like a total airhead. Even knowing Goku black was capable of and killing everyone he loved in that other time line Goku still has to "test his strength" ugh.

At least in Z when they did something stupid like that it would come back to bite them pretty hard with consequences that lasted for years sometimes.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:45 am

TheMikado wrote:
sintzu wrote:
HeroR wrote:There haven't been real consequences in Dragon Ball since they could used the Namekian's Dragon Balls any time they feel like it.
That didn't change anything cause they wouldn't be able to use them if they were all dead.

Beerus will want Goku and Vegeta to fight for him in the 12 universe tournament so if he thinks Black or anyone else is a real threat to their lives he'll just step in and kill them or have Whis do it.

Earth ? they like its food so that also safe.
Exactly and HeroR you know Goku STAYED dead for years. He knows he was partly responsible not only for helping Cell but attracting trouble in general which is what he selflessly for a change decided to stay dead. Also that's why it's weird he seems to be starting EVEN more trouble then ever before after that character arc he made. Vegeta? He knew he F'ed up when he let Cell get that strong and came to that realization again with Buu and messing around with Babidi. He was prepared to die with his new characters arc.

This is a far cry from Goku messing with Beerus after King ki told him not to, dropping his guard on Frieza after he basically F'ed up everyone Goku cared about, then knowing the repercussions of losing the tournament, messes around again and throws an important fight. In every one of those scenarios there was zero guarantee the dragonballs could have helped them and in each Goku acts like a total airhead. Even knowing Goku black was capable of and killing everyone he loved in that other time line Goku still has to "test his strength" ugh.

At least in Z when they did something stupid like that it would come back to bite them pretty hard with consequences that lasted for years sometimes.
What does Goku staying dead for seven years have to do with consequences? What, it's Goku's fault that his brother came looking for him when it was his parents who sent him to Earth to protect him, or that Gero held such a grudge that he created killer androids that Goku had no way of knowing even existed. There was nothing Goku could have personally done to stop those threats other than not existing at all. And Babidi and Dabura would have come to Earth no matter Goku was alive or not, and in Resurrection 'F' we learned that the only reason why Freeza's empire avoided coming to Earth was out of fear of Goku.

As for Beerus, he was going to Earth even if Goku didn't challenged him on King Kai's planet, so what responsibility are we talking about here? The person who nearly got the Earth destroyed by Beerus was Buu eating all the pudding. Goku got shot by a mook and got his planet destroyed by Freeza, so there were consequences for his actions. The U6 tournament had no real consequences since the worse thing that would have happened is that they were change universes, that is it. No one will die and no one's lives would be interrupted.

And let's get real, there are people able to used the Namekian Dragon Balls since Goku can teleport.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by G Slim » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:02 am

He's officially been Yamcha'd, at least he got a happy ending tho :thumbup:

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:19 am

G Slim wrote:He's officially been Yamcha'd, at least he got a happy ending tho :thumbup:
Not many Krillin or Yamcha jokes anymore it is just Gohan.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by TheMikado » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:41 am

What does Goku staying dead for seven years have to do with consequences? What, it's Goku's fault that his brother came looking for him when it was his parents who sent him to Earth to protect him, or that Gero held such a grudge that he created killer androids that Goku had no way of knowing even existed. There was nothing Goku could have personally done to stop those threats other than not existing at all. And Babidi and Dabura would have come to Earth no matter Goku was alive or not, and in Resurrection 'F' we learned that the only reason why Freeza's empire avoided coming to Earth was out of fear of Goku.

As for Beerus, he was going to Earth even if Goku didn't challenged him on King Kai's planet, so what responsibility are we talking about here? The person who nearly got the Earth destroyed by Beerus was Buu eating all the pudding. Goku got shot by a mook and got his planet destroyed by Freeza, so there were consequences for his actions. The U6 tournament had no real consequences since the worse thing that would have happened is that they were change universes, that is it. No one will die and no one's lives would be interrupted.

And let's get real, there are people able to used the Namekian Dragon Balls since Goku can teleport.
You're kidding right? I'll even address all your examples.

1) Goku/Raditz - Raditz gave Goku 24 hours but instead him and Piccolo went charging after him even knowing they would probably die in an attempt to surprise him. It was a bad idea since they knew little about him and should have attempted to gather more people if possible or at least some retcon. They even acknowledge it was a bad idea and Goku died as a result while Piccolo lost an arm. Yes it all worked out in the end but Goku was still dead for an entire year, meanwhile Piccolo kidnapped Gohan for training. There were consequences to both working with Piccolo and going after Raditz.

2) Vegeta wanted to take on Frieza and getting pummeled multiple times and eventually killed all while failing to the the legendary SSJ is kind of a that's what you get. An that says nothing of Piccolos bad decision to have Gohan fight the Saiyans which ultimately gets him killed and the dragonballs lost where they have to travel to Nameck in the first place which again was months to a year.

3) then Goku lets Frieza get away and he comes back with King Cold, a direct consequence of being soft on Frieza in the previous arc. Lucky Future Trunks happens to show up
To give them a dire warning about the future which they FAIL to listen to and has the consequences of both androids going on a rampage and Cell becoming perfect thanks to the Z warriors, Vegeta, and even Goku with his sensu beans. We all know how that turned out for everyone so there were real lasting consequences to their actions which Goku even acknowledges by staying dead since he knows his presence only endangers everyone. A very mature character arc for him.

4) in the Buu saga Vegeta still hasn't matured completely and thus the babidi thing. Yes babidi would have cam no matter what but their actions helped release Majin Buu. If it wasn't for Vegeta and to an extent Goku, they could have easily wiped out Badidi and Buu would never have been released. Again this is something Vegeta acknowledges that the whole mess is his fault and willingly dies for that.

5) even in supplementary material such as history of Trunks, Gohan loses an arm due to Trunks inability. We have real consequences happening.

As far as super I'm not sure how you can even compare the consequences of Buu eating pudding to world destruction. That's the problem the consequences are not real and do not match the crimes. It's hard to even see the correlation between those things. Even in ROF who's fault was it? It wasn't like Vegeta was playing around but he also didn't learn a lesson at all despite it happening on his watch. Goku had his let his guard down moment fixed in a few seconds there was literally no lasting consequence to the arc whatsoever. You could have skipped it like the manga and it wouldn't have affected the story in the future at all. Further we have the Champa arc which again we have Goku wrecking his body and he's good to go after an episode or two. If it didn't matter then using a technique that had a 90% chance of killing him was incredibly irresponsible. Furthermore it's really irresponsible to gamble all of earths for a tournament because you want to fight. He knows nothing about the other universe but willingly will let it be dropped into a totally different universe and then has the nerve to drop out because he can't enjoy the fight. What about the billions of people that don't want to be switched to a different universe? Especially if there's more dangerous foes/aliens. The point of his Cell development was that he loved Earth and the people of earth have been put through enough because of him, but in the Champa arc it's like he doesn't care when in the previous arc he just saw the whole thing blow up. Why would he even take a risk like that of having it switched to a different universe and use a technique that could have killed him where he wouldn't even be around to protect it if it did get in danger in the new universe.
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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by NitroEX » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:49 pm

Zephyr wrote:I understand that. Though, again, Gohan got shafted in favor of Goku before even the manga ended. GT didn't ruin Gohan, it continued the trend that Toriyama himself set.
Debatable. The original manga didn't start the trend of taking away Gohan's power, that started with GT reverting him back to Super Saiyan and continued with Super.

Gohan may have been "shafted" in terms of not becoming the hero in the Buu arc or redeeming himself in the Buutenks fight but the story still chose to grant him the mystic power up which left him the strongest unfused warrior by the end. Nothing about Z's ending suggested he would lose any of that power as Toriyama most likely wanted to leave things ambiguous and up to the viewer's imagination.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:11 pm

NitroEX wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I understand that. Though, again, Gohan got shafted in favor of Goku before even the manga ended. GT didn't ruin Gohan, it continued the trend that Toriyama himself set.
Debatable. The original manga didn't start the trend of taking away Gohan's power, that started with GT reverting him back to Super Saiyan and continued with Super.

Gohan may have been "shafted" in terms of not becoming the hero in the Buu arc or redeeming himself in the Buutenks fight but the story still chose to grant him the mystic power up which left him the strongest unfused warrior by the end. Nothing about Z's ending suggested he would lose any of that power as Toriyama most likely wanted to leave things ambiguous and up to the viewer's imagination.
I'd say that's a very small consolation when he still had utterly failed to redeem himself as a fighter and defender of Earth, and was completely booted out of the main character hero spot for the sake of an incredibly contrived (albeit satisfying) final battle. The ending was still focused on Goku's epilogue, and Gohan was just another spectator. That's definitely putting him in a corner.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:25 pm

It find it interesting that people are now okay with Gohan not being a fighter in GT because he is retired but with Super, people want him to be the same Mystic Gohan from the Buu saga when Gohan wanted to live a normal life after the Buu saga.
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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by Kagari » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:36 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:It find it interesting that people are now okay with Gohan not being a fighter in GT because he is retired but with Super, people want him to be the same Mystic Gohan from the Buu saga when Gohan wanted to live a normal life after the Buu saga.
He still had some fight scenes in GT and even wanted to go out in space with Goku to retrieve the Dragon Balls originally. Nothing was ever said of him losing his abilities due to lack of training in GT, in fact I think the opposite was implied when Piccolo was proud of him for having gotten so strong. That's the difference between GT and Super.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by SSJ Human » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:25 pm

Nothing was ever said of him losing his abilities due to lack of training in GT, in fact I think the opposite was implied when Piccolo was proud of him for having gotten so strong.
He'd probably be a Super Saiyan 4 by now.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by kinisking » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:09 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:It find it interesting that people are now okay with Gohan not being a fighter in GT because he is retired but with Super, people want him to be the same Mystic Gohan from the Buu saga when Gohan wanted to live a normal life after the Buu saga.
Everyone's treated better in super than they were in GT besides for Gohan. And no, retelling don't count.
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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:55 pm

The thing that bothers me about all the complaints about Gohan being happy etc, is that it essentially removes his motivation and drive. Having him have to defend his happiness and lifestyle would give him character motivation and drive. Without it, you become boring as shit. That's not even just talking about fighting. Even outside of fighting, he doesn't really have any problems, struggles, or anything. The closest seemed to be being too nice with Pan. That could actually give some different non fighting kind of drive and motivation to a new relationship, but we won't be seeing it. Family stuff is not important to Dragon Ball. It's why when Krillin settled, we hardly got shit with him, 18, and Marron.

It's like with Cell once he became perfect. You gave the character exactly what he wanted, and he became boring. Gone was his manipulation, creepiness, and monster in the shadows like appeal. He looked so cool, but he was so boring as a bad guy. He had some moments of entertainment, but his motivation wasn't really interesting. His only interesting and cool stuff, was his interaction with the world itself.

It's why Piccolo is so dull to me now. He has no drive, passion, or motivation. He's just there. He has nothing he's after. He isn't working to something. He just stands around and tries to look cool. Didn't matter he got at least anime wise a cool fight, he wasn't really being pushed forward for anything. He wasn't trying to become a better fighter, keep up with the big leagues, or really accomplish much beyond having fun it seemed. His best bits now are when he gets to act out of his comfort zone, which doesn't really drive a character. Him and Pan is really all there is left to him, but they're not together much so he isn't much because of it. It's also the only time he can be interesting or funny, because he's out of his element.

Now do this with a big character like say, Batman. Remove his paranoia. Pair him up with a woman he loves. Let his burning sorrow of his parents tragedy no longer fuel him. He lives happily with a woman, with no troubles, and passes off everything to Nightwing, Batgirl, and Robin. This actually happened in the animated series in one episode. Imagine if they had this running for an entire season. You think Batman would be interesting by not being Batman, and removing all his goals and motivations? No he'd be boring. Remove all the drive, motivation, and entertainment from a character, and they become nothing.

That's basically why Gohan is so unappealing. His motivations and drive are pretty much nothing. He already is successful, and he has no trials or tribulations. He has nothing to achieve or work for. He's scholar man. No trouble being a scholar. No hardships with some students, classmates, with the job or whatever. No problems at home. He's got nothing going for him because of this. Characters who are happy, and have absolutely no worries are not interesting. The only thing that can save Gohan in this role, is being really funny. At least then he can be really entertaining despite not being interesting. But Dragon Ball is very hit and miss with humour, and Gohan is typically not a funny character unless he's Saiyaman. So if he's going to be the perfectly happy hunky dory character, then he needs more time as Saiyaman to at least give him an entertainment point.
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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by SSJ Human » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:35 am

dbzfan7 wrote: It's why Piccolo is so dull to me now. He has no drive, passion, or motivation. He's just there. He has nothing he's after. He isn't working to something. He just stands around and tries to look cool. Didn't matter he got at least anime wise a cool fight, he wasn't really being pushed forward for anything. He wasn't trying to become a better fighter, keep up with the big leagues, or really accomplish much beyond having fun it seemed. His best bits now are when he gets to act out of his comfort zone, which doesn't really drive a character. Him and Pan is
I would argue this is the case, though we haven't seen much from most of the supporting cast this series anyhow. Like how Yamcha and Tien have basically disappeared this saga.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by Kishido » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:09 pm

You know what's actually tragic.. Forget the strenght and everything.

But Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Potential Unleashed Gohan has been the most bad-ass characters at Z...

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:40 pm

Kishido wrote:You know what's actually tragic.. Forget the strenght and everything.

But Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Potential Unleashed Gohan has been the most bad-ass characters at Z...
We have two completely different definitions of Badarse then as Gohan can't do anything by himself

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by Rip the Jacker » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:00 pm

Gohan was arguably the most fleshed out, 3 dimensional character in the series. Removing him without a suitable replacement automatically makes the show worse. It's a damn shame honestly.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by TheMikado » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:09 pm

I think our problem is that Gohan has only fought when he's been pushed. Which is fine. But our last interaction in ROF sees him pushed pretty brutally and his family and by extension happiness threatened. Knowing this it makes little sense in the next arcs for him to be chilling, eating ice cream with glasses and book in hand when at any moment he knows he may be Earths last hope, unless he's finally come to the out of universe conclusion that's it's ok for him to sit on his @$$ because daddy Goku and uncle Vegeta will always be around. In universe you would think he would at least try to stay fit just In case something else happens. No ones telling him to make a career out of it though just be ready to defend your family and home.

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Re: Forget about Gohan, what remains are only memories

Post by Nejishiki » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:27 pm

Even if Gohan had been keeping up with his training, isn't he allowed to have fun? Pretend for a moment if his character was taken in that direction, would he still be scorned for the simple act of eating ice cream and reading difficult books? That aside, while Gohan may be retired as a martial artist, that does not mean he will not attempt to defend Dragon World when the time comes for it. He arrived on his own just fine in Resurrection F. There was no kicking and screaming on his way.

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