Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

[sintzu]

THIS MYTH THAT SUPER IS "MOULDED BY THE MERCHANDISE" NEEDs TO FREAKING STOP!

Why else do you think Super is being made ? it doesn't move any home video units in Japan so shows like it live and die by their merchandise sales. That's a simple fact.

Why do you think starting with RF we've been getting all these fan favorite ideas like bringing back Freeza and Trunks, introducing alternate Saiyans, an evil Goku, etc. ? Why would Toriyama go against having Goku just use his base and Ssj1 forms less than a year after saying that's what would happen in future stories ? One common answer, merchandise. Ssj forms move the most merchandise so there's no way they were going to not introduce new ones and fan favorites are the easiest ways to make a quick $.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

THIS MYTH THAT SUPER IS "MOULDED BY THE MERCHANDISE" NEEDs TO FREAKING STOP!

Why else do you think Super is being made ? it doesn't move any home video units in Japan so shows like it live and die by their merchandise sales. That's a simple fact.

Why do you think starting with RF we've been getting all these fan favorite ideas like bringing back Freeza and Trunks, introducing alternate Saiyans, an evil Goku, etc. ? Why would Toriyama go against having Goku just use his base and Ssj1 forms less than a year after saying that's what would happen in future stories ? One common answer, merchandise. Ssj forms move the most merchandise so there's no way they were going to not introduce new ones and fan favorites are the easiest ways to make a quick $.

Yes the merchandise is selling well like with Z but that does not mean the show is all about merchandise and the merchandise somehow drives the show, and conveniently you didn't quote my entire post which proves you wrong, furthermore Toriyama NEVER said the forms would not come back he said "I think and MAYBE", aka not definitive.

Also DB, Z, GT and Heroes stuff is being sold under the Super moniker it is just not pure Super stuff... for example Heroes has a special anniversary gashapon UDM set next month and the DBS brand is there...

[TheMikado]

I'm not sure how the timing or volume of merchandise is evidence that it isn't merchandise driven...

Was Kai merchandise driven? Yes or No. Whats the evidence to that effect and why should we assume Super is any different in that regard especially when Toriyama specifically states he takes outside suggestions?

Basically what evidence, do we have that it is and that it is not and let's weigh it them against each other.

[sintzu]

conveniently you didn't quote my entire post which proves you wrong.

Ask anyone here who knows everything about the franchise like VegettoEX and he'll tell you the exact same thing.

Merchandise sales is also what killed kai back in 2011.

[precita]

All of DBZ's arcs were better than Super's, but Super is still pretty good.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

conveniently you didn't quote my entire post which proves you wrong.

Ask anyone here who knows everything about the franchise like VegettoEX and he'll tell you the exact same thing.

Merchandise sales is also what killed kai back in 2011.

Again I am not denying that but the fact you think merchandise department decide what goes into Super you imply that the merchandise department go up to Toei and tell them they want Kale... so the big bad controlling merchandise department demand Kale and barely actually merchandise her for a year? Makes total sense. The merchandise is secondary to the show, and it is doing well and that is it.

I'm not sure how the timing or volume of merchandise is evidence that it isn't merchandise driven...

Was Kai merchandise driven? Yes or No. Whats the evidence to that effect and why should we assume Super is any different in that regard especially when Toriyama specifically states he takes outside suggestions?

Basically what evidence, do we have that it is and that it is not and let's weigh it them against each other.

Simple logic, why wait a year to market something? Logically "strike when the iron it hot" and that has never been the case for Super, if they truly were all about merchandise then SSGSSKK would not be released a year later, Kale would be plastered all over the place, evidently not. Plus the fact they constantly still market Z and Heroes stuff under the DBS brand.

[Boo Machine]

conveniently you didn't quote my entire post which proves you wrong.

Ask anyone here who knows everything about the franchise like VegettoEX and he'll tell you the exact same thing.

Merchandise sales is also what killed kai back in 2011.

I thought it was because it wasn't pulling the views they were expecting it to. What with it being just the same show they've gotten before.

[Timetraveller]

No one is saying you can't make a good story and sell toys but its obvious the end goals of this series is different than previous.

Previously merchandise was made around the story, now the story is made around the merchandise. Before the merchandise companies had to work with whatever the story gave them but now the writers have to work with whatever the merchandise companies want to sell.

How does this even make sense since it is Toriyama that creates the story for Dragon Ball Super.

Toriyama doesn't want to be involved which is why he's comfortable doing the bare minimum. He gives them the most basic of outlines (which ideas recommended by the editorial staff). Toei's writers do all the rest. Some random dude by the name of Yamaguchi? wrote the Tien episode. If he cared, he would have written everything.

[TheMikado]

conveniently you didn't quote my entire post which proves you wrong.

Again I am not denying that but the fact you think merchandise department decide what goes into Super you imply that the merchandise department go up to Toei and tell them they want Kale... so the big bad controlling merchandise department demand Kale and barely actually merchandise her for a year? Makes total sense. The merchandise is secondary to the show, and it is doing well and that is it.

I'm not sure how the timing or volume of merchandise is evidence that it isn't merchandise driven...

Was Kai merchandise driven? Yes or No. Whats the evidence to that effect and why should we assume Super is any different in that regard especially when Toriyama specifically states he takes outside suggestions?

Basically what evidence, do we have that it is and that it is not and let's weigh it them against each other.

Simple logic, why wait a year to market something? Logically "strike when the iron it hot" and that has never been the case for Super, if they truly were all about merchandise then SSGSSKK would not be released a year later, Kale would be plastered all over the place, evidently not. Plus the fact they constantly still market Z and Heroes stuff under the DBS brand.

Dragonballs largest audience is overseas, it seems like "hottest" iron would be when things are getting localized which ironically happens to coincide with the release of this merchandise, even the DBZ fighter game seems like it's poised to take advantage of western interest. Likely after seeing those Xenoverse sales. Point I'm making is there are plenty of logical reasons, and possibly incorrect business decisions as to why they would set merchandise at different intervals. It's not really evidence that it's not merchandise focused. I'd just really like to see what the driver is. We know Kai is because Bandai wanted DB merchandise and GT was because Toei was making crazy money off the franchise and didn't want to get off the gravy train. All that's being asked is does Super in terms of intent lie more closely with GT or with Kai? I'd even wager a bit of both which really doesn't help much.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Previously merchandise was made around the story, now the story is made around the merchandise. Before the merchandise companies had to work with whatever the story gave them but now the writers have to work with whatever the merchandise companies want to sell.

How does this even make sense since it is Toriyama that creates the story for Dragon Ball Super.

Toriyama doesn't want to be involved which is why he's comfortable doing the bare minimum. He gives them the most basic of outlines (which ideas recommended by the editorial staff). Toei's writers do all the rest. Some random dude by the name of Yamaguchi? wrote the Tien episode. If he cared, he would have written everything.

You are projecting an awful lot here. Do you know Toriyama on a personal level to know "he doesn't want to be involved". If he doesn't want to be involved he would you stop being involved...
Also we only know of the one occasion of the editorial staff suggesting something to Toriyama and we do not know what said suggestion was.
Toriyama is also not a script writer and doing plot lines and actual character designs doesn't tell to me "he doesn't want to be involved" tells me the opposite in fact.

You are making wild conclusions based on little evidence please stop, you are making yourself look like a right fool.

[sintzu]

I thought it was because it wasn't pulling the views they were expecting it to. What with it being just the same show they've gotten before.

Kai was in the top 10 rated shows most of the time so that wasn't the reason.

[Timetraveller]

You are projecting an awful lot here. Do you know Toriyama on a personal level to know "he doesn't want to be involved". If he doesn't want to be involved he would you stop being involved...
Also we only know of the one occasion of the editorial staff suggesting something to Toriyama and we do not know what said suggestion was.
Toriyama is also not a script writer and doing plot lines and actual character designs doesn't tell to me "he doesn't want to be involved" tells me the opposite in fact.

You are making wild conclusions based on little evidence please stop, you are making yourself look like a right fool.

If he truly cared about it, he'd write the whole thing (and stress every detail). Instead he gives them the vague scripts which is easily evidenced by how different the manga is to the anime and how inconsistent the writing is. We're not talking minor differences here. So he doesn't want to write the script, barely does anything with the designs (almost all of the ToP characters are Toyotaro and designs like different colored Frieza or different colored Super Saiyans don't count) and doesn't want to write the story tells me how much he wants to be involved.

If only life were that easy. You could do the bare minimum and take credit for it all except when it goes wrong and you blame the person who did it for you. And you get paid for it! It's a win win.

[GsTvo]

Nop. And that's why I see so many new people in the forum haha. There's a group how get tired of Super even to comment about it.

Dragon Ball ends with Z. No GT no Super, nothing. It's no te same experience, you don't feel like watching that anime that you love. I feel whatching some cartoon with the shadow and the names of good characters from the original story.

Maybe if we put together the music, transformations and animation and some characters of GT with Bills and Wills (the only characters I like in Super), maybe we can do something good. Besides that and getting realistic... Kai, Super and that movies just worth to make money with what it was a good franchise.

[sintzu]

If he truly cared about it, he'd write the whole thing.

The reason he doesn't write the whole thing is because he told his story in the manga. What he does now shows he cares because he's taking the time to make sure things are going in the right direction.

[Kinokima]

People keep saying that this shows sole purpose is to sell
Merchandise. Then you might as well say that about every show on its time slot. It's doing well because it's getting relatively good ratings and yes selling merchandise doesn't hurt. It is a kids show after all.


The difference with shows that need to sell discs are they are are usually on late at night and don't get the ratings that things like Dragonball and One Piece, get. Those series need to sell discs or if the source material the manga sees a boost in sales that could also show that a show is a success even if it doesn't sell as many Bluray/DVD

Anyways trying to say the only purpose of Super is to sell toys is pretty cynical. Merchandise sales for any show are important and definitely a measure of success but I don't see how the story of Super is all about selling toys. There seems to be a misunderstanding of how non late night shows works.

[sintzu]

People keep saying that this shows sole purpose is to sell Merchandise. Then you might as well say that about every show on its time slot.

One Piece which airs after Super is made to sell the manga.

[Kinokima]

People keep saying that this shows sole purpose is to sell Merchandise. Then you might as well say that about every show on its time slot.

One Piece which airs after Super is made to sell the manga.

True but One Piece doesn't even really need the anime to sell the manga any more.

But in the end all anime series want their series to sell product: manga, discs, merchandise. Super is no different. And yes with Super perhaps selling toys is the greatest measure of its success (besides ratings which it is also doing fine at) because it's not an original manga and non-late night shows usually don't sell a lot of discs. So going after the toy market does make sense.

But to say story and characters are secondary to selling toys has no basis in fact. I don't know everyone involved in the show but the fact that you have someone like Toshio interacting with fans shows that they do care.

Wanting to sell merchandise and wanting to tell a good story are not mutually exclusive. Having a story with characters kids (and adults) enjoy is what is going to sell the merchandise. Note most mecha/super robot shows are
also about selling toys but that doesn't mean they sacrifice story for it. Do you know even the original concept of Cowboy Bepop was to sell toys of the space ship.

[sintzu]

All anime series want their series to sell product: manga, discs, merchandise. Super is no different.

This is true but when an anime is based on a manga, the main goal is to sell the manga while merchandise and other things come second. Super is like Kai where it wasn't made to sell a manga but Bandai's merchandise and when Kai didn't, it was cancelled.

Super's home video sales are very low so the only wat they're making money off it is through merchandise which is why we're seeing popular concepts that can move units like a Broly lookalike and an evil Goku to name a few.

[Kinokima]

All anime series want their series to sell product: manga, discs, merchandise. Super is no different.

This is true but when an anime is based on a manga, the main goal is to sell the manga while merchandise and other things come second. Super is like Kai where it wasn't made to sell a manga but Bandai's merchandise and when Kai didn't, it was cancelled.

Super's home video sales are very low so the only wat they're making money off it is through merchandise which is why we're seeing popular concepts that can move units like a Broly lookalike and an evil Goku to name a few.

Yeah I get that its home video sales are low but that is pretty typical for shows in its time slot. Shows in that time slot rely more on ratings to gauge success than video sales and as its typically in the top 10 I'd say it's doing well.

And yes I get creating popular characters that will sell merchandise is an aim. If a character you create is popular than kids are going to want to buy figures of that character it stands to reason. I am just arguing with the fact that the sole purpose of the series is to sell merchandise and that telling a good story is not important. I don't see that at all and I see that as a very cynical outlook and not fair to the people who work on this show. Whether people like the story being told is an entirely a matter of opinion but I don't see any evidence that they don't care about telling an exciting story.

Like I said telling a good story with well written characters is going to sell the merchandise. Granted you may have to start with a concept "an evil Goku" but you still have to build a character around that for kids to enjoy to sell the merchandise.

[sintzu]

I am just arguing with the fact that the sole purpose of the series is to sell merchandise and that telling a good story is not important. I don't see that at all.

What I'm saying is that unlike before, the story is being written around the merchandise. Black for example turned out great so someone cared enough about the story to make him the best he could be. Other things like what they did with Trunks was a mess and most likely wouldn't have been done had the show not been as merchandise driven as it is, he most likely would've been used just as support like in the manga.