Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[UI Peter]

A man literally forced a woman to bare his child (Anakin).

The birth of Anakin was a virgin birth. There was no sex involved at all.

Rape is non-consensual sex, not "using magic to create a baby" smh.

Read between the lines. A woman being violated is still being used as a crux for the dumb space movie's main character.

Oh, then the mom leads a miserable life as a single mother and slave only to die after being tortured for days on end.

You are seriously projecting things that clearly arent there. How the hell is a miraculous birth being "violated"?

[UI Peter]

Every single time I hear the term "Mary Sue" mentioned in regards to a fictional character, I roll my eyes so hard . That term was originally coined to mock certain types of characters in FANFICTION, using it for actual real fictional works makes zero sense.

"Mary Sue" is a legit criticism of certain characters based on their bad writing. It was never limited to fan fiction.

https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

I disagree, i've only ever seen that term used in bad faith by alt-right edgelord trolls in regards to criticizing female characters in films, games and TV shows, most of the time it just comes down to plain old misogyny.

You just made a bad-faith response smh. Male characters get accused of by Mary Sues too all the time by literally all kinds of people.

The Mary Sue label originated in the Star Trek fandom, not the Alt-Right. Criticizing badly written female characters isn't misogny.

[JulieYBM]

The birth of Anakin was a virgin birth. There was no sex involved at all.

Rape is non-consensual sex, not "using magic to create a baby" smh.

Read between the lines. A woman being violated is still being used as a crux for the dumb space movie's main character.

Oh, then the mom leads a miserable life as a single mother and slave only to die after being tortured for days on end.

You are seriously projecting things that clearly arent there. How the hell is a miraculous birth being "violated"?

I'm criticizing a real life human being's decision to build his male character in his male dominated film off of the suffering of a woman. I don't care about in-universe bullshit, I care about starting a conversation about how women are depicted in fiction and the circumstances of the people who make said fiction.

[UI Peter]

Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be completely loyal to something. It's OK to criticize something you're a fan of. I've been a fan of DB for over 15 years now, and it's my favorite anime franchise, but I can still call it out on its faults. No one's saying you can't like modern DB, just don't be in denial about the things it's gotten wrong so far.

But you got to admit sometimes fans complain about stupid stuff in Super that happend in the original series.

No one here will claim that DBZ was perfect; but to say that people shouldn't complain about stuff Super did because "Z did it well" is kind of...bullshit. I'd argue that the fact that DBS still suffers from a lot of issues that plague later Z, a 20+ year old show, makes Super look a hell of a lot worse. Especially in comparison to other similar shonen anime.

Exactly. Super should have address all of the flaws that Classic DB had, but instead it either repeated them or made them worse. The fact that Toriyama apparently didnt learn from his mistakes from the 80s-90s only makes him & Super seem worse. At least with GT, that series' problems could be excused with franchise burnout and the complete lack of Toriyama's involvement past the starting premise, but Super has no excuse.

[UI Peter]

Read between the lines. A woman being violated is still being used as a crux for the dumb space movie's main character.

Oh, then the mom leads a miserable life as a single mother and slave only to die after being tortured for days on end.

You are seriously projecting things that clearly arent there. How the hell is a miraculous birth being "violated"?

I'm criticizing a real life human being's decision to build his male character in his male dominated film off of the suffering of a woman. I don't care about in-universe bullshit, I care about starting a conversation about how women are depicted in fiction and the circumstances of the people who make said fiction.

You just proved my point smh. You sound like the type of folks who think a female character having anything negative happen to them is sexist, even of its completely unrelated to their sex smh.

[JulieYBM]

Every time I think of the term Mary Sue I'm reminded of how much I detest the term. Not only because it originates from a woman disparaging young girls and women who expressed themselves through art but because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them.

[Matches Malone]

I did not say that people can't complain but they complain need to make sense, saying stuff like "it's bullshit that universe 6 saiyans can turn super saiyan"(Goten and Trunks).

I would've just kept Goten and Trunks in Base, as they rarely used Ssj anyway. Instead I would've had their fusion be the one who got Ssj. I do however think the U6 way of doing it is worse, as at least you can excuse Goten and Trunks by getting it passed to them from their father who were already capable of reaching it. In U6, they get a feeling in their back and that's it ?

[UI Peter]

Every time I think of the term Mary Sue I'm reminded of how much I detest the term. Not only because it originates from a woman disparaging young girls and women who expressed themselves through art but because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them.

Criticizing badly written female characters isn't misogyny.

"because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them."

Conspiracy much? And male characters get called Mary Sues too for the same reasons as the female ones.

[JulieYBM]

You are seriously projecting things that clearly arent there. How the hell is a miraculous birth being "violated"?

I'm criticizing a real life human being's decision to build his male character in his male dominated film off of the suffering of a woman. I don't care about in-universe bullshit, I care about starting a conversation about how women are depicted in fiction and the circumstances of the people who make said fiction.

You just proved my point smh. You sound like the type of folks who think a female character having anything negative happen to them is sexist, even of its completely unrelated to their sex smh.

No, I care about who is making these works, how they're making these works and why they're making these works. Lucas isn't appealing to women when he uses us as [non-erotic] torture porn despite knowing about the historically poor manner in which women are treated in the home, the workplace and behind the camera. That he would further consider only the slaughtering of children worthy of a PG-13 rating rather than also the two-film spanning torture of his main character's mother says a lot.

Like, I like brutal shit in fiction, too, I just don't go around suspiciously delving out brutality to those more marginalized than me in my fiction. If I thought this was a kink of his I wouldn't say anything of it--other than to criticize him of including it in a family film--but Star Wars is clearly a family-friendly franchise aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Like, yeah. Us females can face adversity in stories. Heck, Pokemon does this quite often in recent years by giving characters arcs where they struggle. Or how about The Legend of Korra, where it's bisexual Woman of Color protagonist had to learn to grow from being aggressive and impulsive to thinking things through and confronting her emotional weaknesses. Of course, in the case of Pokemon women are writing the stories and at least a few women are involved with Korra's writing (I still gave a lot of issues with the series but that's off-topic).

Hibike! Euphonium and Violet Evergarden also involve women who face trauma, but their trauma is again for their character arcs and they shine as actual characters of their own.

I recently re-watched Gundam 00. The series appeals to me as a bisexual with the incredibly gorgeous characters and also has some nice character arcs for women but it still suffers. Nena gets left by the wayside in Season Two, Marina is a fucking moron and Anew Returner's death is pointless and exists purely to give a random tragedy to Lyle. I'm still mad about Anew dying, too, or Louise's suffering being drawn out for the entire last two-thirds of the series. Believe it or not but women don't find it appealing to see their images and stories represented in media like that.

[JulieYBM]

Every time I think of the term Mary Sue I'm reminded of how much I detest the term. Not only because it originates from a woman disparaging young girls and women who expressed themselves through art but because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them.

Criticizing badly written female characters isn't misogyny.

"because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them."

Conspiracy much? And male characters get called Mary Sues too for the same reasons as the female ones.

Shitting down young womens' throats in an incredibly hacky performance piece because some girl with the hots for Kirk and Spock included a fucking 15 year old girl in Starfleet to self-insert into isn't criticism.

[UI Peter]

Every time I think of the term Mary Sue I'm reminded of how much I detest the term. Not only because it originates from a woman disparaging young girls and women who expressed themselves through art but because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them.

Criticizing badly written female characters isn't misogyny.

"because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them."

Conspiracy much? And male characters get called Mary Sues too for the same reasons as the female ones.

Shitting down young womens' throats in an incredibly hacky performance piece because some girl with the hots for Kirk and Spock included a fucking 15 year old girl in Starfleet to self-insert into isn't criticism.

So you dodged the main issue of actual writing quality, okay lol.

[UI Peter]

I'm criticizing a real life human being's decision to build his male character in his male dominated film off of the suffering of a woman. I don't care about in-universe bullshit, I care about starting a conversation about how women are depicted in fiction and the circumstances of the people who make said fiction.

You just proved my point smh. You sound like the type of folks who think a female character having anything negative happen to them is sexist, even of its completely unrelated to their sex smh.

No, I care about who is making these works, how they're making these works and why they're making these works. Lucas isn't appealing to women when he uses us as [non-erotic] torture porn despite knowing about the historically poor manner in which women are treated in the home, the workplace and behind the camera. That he would further consider only the slaughtering of children worthy of a PG-13 rating rather than also the two-film spanning torture of his main character's mother says a lot.

Like, I like brutal shit in fiction, too, I just don't go around suspiciously delving out brutality to those more marginalized than me in my fiction. If I thought this was a kink of his I wouldn't say anything of it--other than to criticize him of including it in a family film--but Star Wars is clearly a family-friendly franchise aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Like, yeah. Us females can face adversity in stories. Heck, Pokemon does this quite often in recent years by giving characters arcs where they struggle. Or how about The Legend of Korra, where it's bisexual Woman of Color protagonist had to learn to grow from being aggressive and impulsive to thinking things through and confronting her emotional weaknesses. Of course, in the case of Pokemon women are writing the stories and at least a few women are involved with Korra's writing (I still gave a lot of issues with the series but that's off-topic).

Hibike! Euphonium and Violet Evergarden also involve women who face trauma, but their trauma is again for their character arcs and they shine as actual characters of their own.

I recently re-watched Gundam 00. The series appeals to me as a bisexual with the incredibly gorgeous characters and also has some nice character arcs for women but it still suffers. Nena gets left by the wayside in Season Two, Marina is a fucking moron and Anew Returner's death is pointless and exists purely to give a random tragedy to Lyle. I'm still mad about Anew dying, too, or Louise's suffering being drawn out for the entire last two-thirds of the series. Believe it or not but women don't find it appealing to see their images and stories represented in media like that.

Way to prove me right, again smh.

[JulieYBM]

Criticizing badly written female characters isn't misogyny.

"because shithead men have weaponized it in their crusade to brow beat women in fandom to be subservient to them."

Conspiracy much? And male characters get called Mary Sues too for the same reasons as the female ones.

Shitting down young womens' throats in an incredibly hacky performance piece because some girl with the hots for Kirk and Spock included a fucking 15 year old girl in Starfleet to self-insert into isn't criticism.

So you dodged the main issue of actual writing quality, okay lol.

Glad to see it's very important to you to see to it that young women write only the highest quality fan fiction. Hope you're by their side to teach them all well.

I mean, Christ sweetie, the concept of a Mary Sue is literally based on a Strawman because Paula Smith was too much of a coward to actually made a pointed attack. She purports that her satire is true, sharp and biting despite offering no concrete examples. It's not a serious subject because the supposed 'Mary Sue' doesn't do a goddamned thing to harm representation. It's merely a by product of novice female writers as filtered through her own internalized misogyny that demands she shit on them for *gasp* having fun and experimenting with writing.

In other words, Paula Smith should've gone to get a life and I hope she eventually did. Let goofy fans goof off and grow as amateur writers in peace and quiet.

Way to prove me right, again smh.

I actually proved you wrong. Easy mistake to make, I know.

[Planetnamek]

"Mary Sue" is a legit criticism of certain characters based on their bad writing. It was never limited to fan fiction.

https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

I disagree, i've only ever seen that term used in bad faith by alt-right edgelord trolls in regards to criticizing female characters in films, games and TV shows, most of the time it just comes down to plain old misogyny.

You just made a bad-faith response smh. Male characters get accused of by Mary Sues too all the time by literally all kinds of people.

The Mary Sue label originated in the Star Trek fandom, not the Alt-Right. Criticizing badly written female characters isn't misogny.

I don't believe I did , i''ve literally NEVER once seen that term used in a way that wasn't blatantly sexist and misogynist when referring to female characters in films, games or TV shows.

If you were actually paying attention to my post, you would've noticed that I never actually claimed that ANY criticism of a female character was sexist, but I do believe the types of people that call female characters like Rey "Mary Sues"(which they technically are not at all as articles like these perfectly explain: https://thestorygeeks.org/2019/12/18/wh ... %20powers. ) are the types of people that despise strong female characters(and they usually tend to be incels)for shallow misogynistic reasons, i've never once seen a single person use the term Mary-Sue to refer to non fan-fiction characters in good faith.

I'm the one who should be smacking my head in response to you blatantly missing the point of my post

[JulieYBM]

I've never seen Mary Sue used for men. When a male character is poorly written we just say they're poorly written. When a female character is poorly written we use a made up term to contexualize their awfulness as distinctly female, yet we have no counter term: never is a woman distinctly associated with a term to indicate their well-written status.

[Planetnamek]

I'm criticizing a real life human being's decision to build his male character in his male dominated film off of the suffering of a woman. I don't care about in-universe bullshit, I care about starting a conversation about how women are depicted in fiction and the circumstances of the people who make said fiction.

You just proved my point smh. You sound like the type of folks who think a female character having anything negative happen to them is sexist, even of its completely unrelated to their sex smh.

No, I care about who is making these works, how they're making these works and why they're making these works. Lucas isn't appealing to women when he uses us as [non-erotic] torture porn despite knowing about the historically poor manner in which women are treated in the home, the workplace and behind the camera. That he would further consider only the slaughtering of children worthy of a PG-13 rating rather than also the two-film spanning torture of his main character's mother says a lot.

Like, I like brutal shit in fiction, too, I just don't go around suspiciously delving out brutality to those more marginalized than me in my fiction. If I thought this was a kink of his I wouldn't say anything of it--other than to criticize him of including it in a family film--but Star Wars is clearly a family-friendly franchise aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Like, yeah. Us females can face adversity in stories. Heck, Pokemon does this quite often in recent years by giving characters arcs where they struggle. Or how about The Legend of Korra, where it's bisexual Woman of Color protagonist had to learn to grow from being aggressive and impulsive to thinking things through and confronting her emotional weaknesses. Of course, in the case of Pokemon women are writing the stories and at least a few women are involved with Korra's writing (I still gave a lot of issues with the series but that's off-topic).

Hibike! Euphonium and Violet Evergarden also involve women who face trauma, but their trauma is again for their character arcs and they shine as actual characters of their own.

I recently re-watched Gundam 00. The series appeals to me as a bisexual with the incredibly gorgeous characters and also has some nice character arcs for women but it still suffers. Nena gets left by the wayside in Season Two, Marina is a fucking moron and Anew Returner's death is pointless and exists purely to give a random tragedy to Lyle. I'm still mad about Anew dying, too, or Louise's suffering being drawn out for the entire last two-thirds of the series. Believe it or not but women don't find it appealing to see their images and stories represented in media like that.

That's more the MPAA's own doing then Lucas's, they have really fucked up priorities when it comes to rating films. They are totally fine with showing severed fingers in PG-13 films(as I found out when I saw Alex Cross) yet you can't show a female orgasm(or a gay or interracial love scene for that matter) that's too explicit even in an R-rated movie or else it could get the dreaded NC-17 rating.

Didn't know about the origin of Mary-Sue before, that's interesting.

[JulieYBM]

Pretty sure Lucas asked for a PG-13 but I could be making that up in my head.

[ABED]

snip

You're supposed to reply OUTSIDE the quote.

Other characters were said to by natural prodigies in early DB too, yey they still got effortlessly outclassed by Goku for apparently no reason

Because not all prodigies are equal. It simply means you catch on easily at a young age.

And Star Wars is about as great a fictional example of characters being good at using a plot device "just because" as you'll ever find.Even though that wasn't the case even in the 1st movie lmao The force is so vaguely defined that it's literally called THE FORCE.

The Force was given detailed exposition on how it works and what it exactly is in the OG trilogy, so this argument is purely false

I don't know why anyone feels they need some explanation for why any character is so innately good at something. Even with Goku's Saiyan heritage, that doesn't explain why Goku is so much more talented than Vegeta.

He isnt, actually

Goku is shown to be the more talented fighter hence why after the Saiyan arc, he's a step ahead of Vegeta.

So if Videl were to just randomly become stronger than Zeno "just because", that would be okay with you?

That is exactly the case in the first movie which is so thinly written. It relies mostly on tropes because the world is so out there that the audience needs something familiar to anchor the story. Stories need a lot less explanation about stuff like this than you think.Luke is honestly more of a "Mary Sue" than even Rey, complete with being a self insert character. Hell, his name is LUKE S, and he grew up in the desert. Don't know if you know this but George LUCAS grew up in the desert. Luke is a great pilot of a military fighter jet despite us only having heard he was in dialog. How? He' s a farm boy. Most of his shortcomings like his temper and impatience come in the sequels along with the truth of his family. You using the term Mary Sue is such a bad faith argument that doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny.

A recurring theme in your responses is just telling me I'm wrong and offering no counter argument.

[LoganForkHands73]

The term "Mary Sue" feels like an outdated relic that reminds me of trash like Protectors of the Plot Continuum, an online community essentially dedicated to cyberbullying young fanfic authors and rewriting their stories to kill off their OCs, who used such charmingly bawdy terms as "canon rape" to describe any artistic license used by said authors. I can never take anyone who uses either term seriously anymore.

The thing about fanfic is, yeah, 99% of it is terrible, but chances are nobody's ever going to see the bad stuff unless it's truly "so bad it's good". It's harmless. Nobody pays money to read fan fiction (aside from that one Amazon thing) so it's not like there's anything to waste but time. I don't understand why people go on these crusades to tear down these writers, most of whom are obviously young children just starting to blossom with creative instincts. Even George R.R. Martin whom I otherwise respect as a writer has vehemently discouraged fanfic -- I guarantee you that George was exactly the kind of nerd who was writing Batman and LOTR fan fiction as a child, in fact I'm almost certain I've even heard him admitting it in an interview. It's easy to be hypocritical when you're already a successful original content creator.

Like, I like brutal shit in fiction, too, I just don't go around suspiciously delving out brutality to those more marginalized than me in my fiction. If I thought this was a kink of his I wouldn't say anything of it--other than to criticize him of including it in a family film--but Star Wars is clearly a family-friendly franchise aimed at the lowest common denominator.

I've agreed with most of what you've said here in this thread, but I'm curious as to why George Lucas's hypothetical kinks towards torture porn would make his usage of it less problematic in your view?

[Jiren The Alpha]

I did not say that people can't complain but they complain need to make sense, saying stuff like "it's bullshit that universe 6 saiyans can turn super saiyan"(Goten and Trunks).

I would've just kept Goten and Trunks in Base, as they rarely used Ssj anyway. Instead I would've had their fusion be the one who got Ssj. I do however think the U6 way of doing it is worse, as at least you can excuse Goten and Trunks by getting it passed to them from their father who were already capable of reaching it. In U6, they get a feeling in their back and that's it ?

thats how it feels to turn super saiyan, not how you do it, but for some reason people didn't get that (which is funny because people say that DB is simple) and Future Trunks in the manga turned super saiyan without the rage.