Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[MasenkoHA]

And the movies! And among the VAs! And every where else until Toriyama decided it'd be funny to blow a raspberry in everyone's face. It's no different than the Yamcha is a cheater stuff. Toriyama thought it'd be funny so that's what he went with and now the fandom is devoted to ignoring how nonsensical a turn of events that is because if something's canon it must make sense!

It’s not nonsensical though. Your entire argument is that Toriyama is going against the character he wrote because of adaptation exclusive material. And that’s nonsensical.

That’s like complaining the later Harry Potter books mention his green eyes because “Hey! He has blue eyes in the films!”


If we’re talking about the direction Gohan’s character went, as it pertains to Toriyama’s story and writing, then it’s pertinent we focus on the stuff he wrote and not stuff Toei made up to kill time.

[jjgp1112]

Honestly the Gohan/Chi-Chi conflict in the anime filler and mainline story are direct opposites: In the anime Chi-Chi wants Gohan to study and be mature but Gohan just wants to ~be a kiiiiid.~ In the actual story though, Chi-Chi wants Gohan to just be a kid who goes to school and hangs out with people his own age even when the world is burning, but Gohan has an adult's sense of responsibility and knows when his studies have to take a backseat to fighting genocidal supervillians.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Although the whole Yamcha cheated thing IS bullshit. Other than that you are right.

[super michael]

Let say if somehow Goku isn't the main character anymore and someone else is the main character, that doesn't make it a spin-off. Look at Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu-Gi-Oh GX an example, even though Yugi isn't the main character of Yu-Gi-Oh GX that doesn't make it a spin-off but a continuation.

I admit I’ve only seen bits and pieces of GX, I pretty much stopped watching Yugioh back in the first series when they had that really badly placed filler arc in the middle of a tournament arc but Yu-gi-oh GX pretty much has an entirely new cast of characters and its own storylines with some original characters making cameos, yes?

That would make it a spin off. Not a continuation.

Yu-Gi-Oh GX happens many years after the original Yu-Gi-Oh, in Yu-Gi-Oh GX the cast are new and some episodes some of the old characters returns. Here are the things I remember:

Spoiler:

Yugi gives Jaden a card in episode 1

Spoiler:

Paradox Brothers battle Jaden to stay in school or get expelled

Spoiler:

Chumley goes to work with Maximillion Pegasus's

Spoiler:

Maximillion Pegasus's ask Jaden to get Winged Dragon Of Ra which was stolen by a student

Spoiler:

Kaiba appears in the episode, I can't remember why.

Spoiler:

Jaden fights Yugi by traveling back to Battle City.

I wrote it all in spoiler, I rather not risk spoiling and breaking the rules.

[Majin Buu]

NGL Goku fans I find it ironic people keep going "Buh buh buh Gohan fans are mad cuz he not a bad azz", like you wouldn't be salty if Goku suddenly wasn't always winning anymore lol. This whole topic is based on the assumption that Goku needs to be the winner at all costs. Don't play that card here it doesn't work.

Actually I wouldn't be, because there's more to love about Dragon Ball than just one single character. I actually thought it was refreshing for him to lose to Beerus in Battle of Gods. You're assuming that all Goku fans single-mindedly love Goku as much as you single-mindedly love Gohan.

Reading comprehension. That's not what I said or implied at all.

That's the jist of your viewpoint. It oozes out of every post you've made about this.

And if you want to go that silly route, I'm sure if the same happened to Goku you'd be salty as well. As would other people in this thread if Goku became something he wasn't.

That's not what happened with Gohan, Toriyama simply took him in a direction you didn't like.

It's not that he hated it, he just preferred to do other things and would was much more interested in doing whatever the gang was doing. This love of schooling was never shown till Buu arc. Much like most of the things regarding his new found personality.

Again, it's never been established that school is something he'd rather not do. Like JJGP said, the stuff you're referencing is from anime filler; and even there, he never actually states that he doesn't like academics. Besides, other anime-only material like the "I Love You Mr. Piccolo" song from Movie 2 has him start by outright declaring that he's going to be a great scholar.

It seems to me you're the one pushing a version of Gohan that never existed, not Toriyama or even Toei.

[goku the krump dancer]

Gohan literally put training on the back burner for seven solid years so he can focus on studying, that's a long time for someone to skip out on their supposed secret passion. Chichi was against Gohan fighting because she knows how dangerous it can get and what sane person would allow their toddler/barely preteen kid fight against murder monsters, when there are PLENTY of more experienced adults around.

Goku's win/loss record isn't nearly as clean cut as his critics try to imply.

He beat Tao soundly but only after getting nearly killed, retreating and getting some hax training.
He just barely beat the two Piccolo's.
He was lucky enough to turn into a Super Saiyan in order to beat Freeza.

He lost against Roshi
Lost against Tien
Died against Raditz
Vegeta got ganged up on.
He wasnt strong enough for Cell.
Needed energy from literally every person on the planet to beat Boo.
Lost to Beerus.
Threw the fight against Hit.
Lost against Zamasu.
Had to gang up on Jiren.
Had to gang up on Moro.
Had to fuse to beat Broly.
Had to Gang up on Baby.
Tag Teamed with 18 against Super 17
Needed energy from everyone in the universe to beat Shenron.

I'd hardly call Goku Mr. Invincible.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Goku is the main character. Toriyama attempted to make Gohan the main character only at the very twilight of Dragon Ball’s original run and then changed his mind.

It's clear that was his intention from the very start in retrospect. All that focus he got from each arc, him being more powerful than Goku as a child.

Well thankfully Gohan never became something he wasn’t like some martial arts obsessed dude whose always working to get stronger.

Until Buu Saga.

It’s almost like since the story didn’t focus on Gohan’s downtime much we never really saw much of it and once the story switched to him as the main character it became more apparent.

Or maybe it's just Toriyama wanting to write slice of life after a decade long run which he fully admits in what I posted earlier in this thread.

Most of your argument just seems based on Toei’s filler.

I own the manga thank you very much.

But I think telling Bulma and Piccolo that he wanted to be a scholar, without any prodding from Chi Chi kind of showed he did in fact enjoy academics. But since he’s in a martial arts series the fighting is the primary focus of the narrative. Especially in the much more faster paced and to the point manga.

And if you recall Chi Chi was beating that into his head from the moment he was born. There's no inclination he hates school but his progression overtime dropped focus on that for more worldly things or situations. When he started to grow a backbone and did things his way instead of just the way he was told to by his mother.

That's the jist of your viewpoint. It oozes out of every post you've made about this.

Says the man wanting to hate a character over opinions:

I swear, sometimes Gohan fans make me want to hate him out of spite with the way they act like he alone is the only thing good about this story.

[jjgp1112]

It's clear that was his intention from the very start in retrospect. All that focus he got from each arc, him being more powerful than Goku as a child.

But it's not?

Yes, Gohan is stronger than Goku as a child during the Raditz fight...and then when Goku comes back? He's quite a great deal stronger than him and the idea of Gohan surpassing Goku is never brought up again until Goku tells Gohan he wants to surpass him in the hyperbolic time chamber in Cell arc. Not once. The story centers right back to Goku even after we see Gohan's power. You keep trying to put things that aren't there.

Gohan's goal was never to be the hero who beats the big villian. The plot never steered him towards this either. Gohan's desire was to get over his fears and become strong enough to help his friends when needed. This was all resolved after the moment he ran away crying from Nappa and is never an issue again. The entire Cell fight was foisted on him and Toriyama reset his character development to create a conflict. But like we keep having to say, Gohan was still a bit player whose relevance to the story sometimes dwindled at points (like being largely a nonfactor in the Android saga. Seriously, him becoming the hero in the end, while it worked, had no real build up going back to the beginning of the arc.)

And if you recall Chi Chi was beating that into his head from the moment he was born. There's no inclination he hates school but his progression overtime dropped focus on that for more worldly things or situations. When he started to grow a backbone and did things his way instead of just the way he was told to by his mother.

But your argument is that Gohan prefers to goof off and spar over studying. This is not the case. That is only in the anime. Just because Gohan feels there are times where he has to put the books down and fight when he's needed doesn't mean he wouldn't rather be studying. That just means he has a precocious sense or responsibility.

And yes, Chi-Chi drilled the scholar goal into Gohan's head and indoctrinated him to it. But here's the thing: Gohan never shows any resistance to it. His resistance is only when Chi-Chi thinks studying is more important than the fate of the entire planet. What Chi-Chi doesn't get is you still need a world to be a scholar in, but Gohan does.

[MasenkoHA]

It's clear that was his intention from the very start in retrospect. All that focus he got from each arc, him being more powerful than Goku as a child.

Him being more powerful than Goku as a child is clearly done out of convenience. If he was as strong or weaker than Goku as a kid he would be useless at the point of the story he showed up. The narrative required Gohan to be stronger than Goku as a kid if he were to participate in fights with the Saiyans, Freeza and his forces, Cell etc. It’s in no way some kind of proof that Toriyama always intended for him to be the main character.

His main focus was in the Saiyan arc. He really didn’t get any special kind of focus after that until the Cell Games.

I own the manga thank you very much.

That’s cool. You’re still using anime only material to make your argument.

And if you recall Chi Chi was beating that into his head from the moment he was born. There's no inclination he hates school but his progression overtime dropped focus on that for more worldly things or situations. When he started to grow a backbone and did things his way instead of just the way he was told to by his mother.

Again, it is a martial arts series. Him being a fighter is going to get more focus than him as an academic. Nothing in the manga ever shows he prefers fighting over school. We just see him fight more because of the kind of series Dragon Ball is.

[Majin Buu]

Says the man wanting to hate a character over opinions

So you don't deny it, gotcha. (Nice deflection by the way)

And besides, I'm at least basing my opinions on Gohan on what's actually established about him in the story. I'm not pushing a misinterpreted version of the character as an outlet for my discontent at how the character turned out.

(Also, you wanna criticize me for lacking reading comprehension? You're projecting again. Between this and another thread you've posted in, I'm convinced your reading comprehension skills are indeed very poor.)

[Skar]

Goku is the main character. Toriyama attempted to make Gohan the main character only at the very twilight of Dragon Ball’s original run and then changed his mind.

I know this is more of a "what could've been" discussion but I'm curious what would you like to see with Gohan moving forward? In the Buu saga, it seemed like Toriyama lost interest in the next generation since he killed them off before the final battle and they all apparently stopped training by EoZ. DBS sorta repeats Gohan's development from the Buu saga since he slacked off, lost power, then trained to regain it to protect his loved ones and all that. I think it's more of a last hurray for Gohan before EoZ since he only fought henchmen or secondary antagonists in the ToP and Moro arcs. I don't know what's left for his character at this point or if Toriyama would decide to have him contribute more.

[super michael]

Here is one way how academic and fighting would mix, they can have Gohan research some ancient text about ancient ki usage and ancient techniques which Gohan would be able to understand thanks to his understanding on ki usage.
Another thing they can have Gohan do is learn magic, maybe have Gohan learn incantations and spell which would make it easy for him thanks to his academic.

In Dragon Ball there are magic and magic users that use incantations.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

There is no where for Gohan to go. He's in the same boat as Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo. His character is set in stone (in his case it's 'lazy guy you can't rely on in a fight'). You could maybe squeeze some fun episodes out of family dynamics, maybe have a second go at the superhero thing but the ship has sailed on any dramatic potential.

Here is one way how academic and fighting would mix, they can have Gohan research some ancient text about ancient ki usage and ancient techniques which Gohan would be able to understand thanks to his understanding on ki usage.
Another thing they can have Gohan do is learn magic, maybe have Gohan learn incantations and spell which would make it easy for him thanks to his academic.

In Dragon Ball there are magic and magic users that use incantations.

While I think it would be cool if the character trained by the Demon King started using hexes and black magic, DB is pretty committed to the idea that Gohan is "normal." He has a boring job, a regular wife, and has to be dragged into the greater conflcts going on around him because he's so disconnected from the important people. So I dunno if the plot would ever go for it or if the fanbase would go along with it.

[Koitsukai]

Here is one way how academic and fighting would mix, they can have Gohan research some ancient text about ancient ki usage and ancient techniques which Gohan would be able to understand thanks to his understanding on ki usage.
Another thing they can have Gohan do is learn magic, maybe have Gohan learn incantations and spell which would make it easy for him thanks to his academic.

In Dragon Ball there are magic and magic users that use incantations.

In DB Online I believe there's something like that going on, I don't remember if it was Gohan or someone else who studied ki and taught it to the rest of the world, Grimlock is the DB Online authority in this forum, so he might be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

[MasenkoHA]

There is no where for Gohan to go. He's in the same boat as Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo. His character is set in stone (in his case it's 'lazy guy you can't rely on in a fight'). You could maybe squeeze some fun episodes out of family dynamically , maybe have a second go at the superhero thing but the ship has sailed on any dramatic potential.

Super gave him a whole ass character arc where he realized he needed to get his shit together to protect his family. Even re-training with Piccolo and Piccolo addressing Gohan’s tendency to get arrogant when he gets a little too much power.

I know Super is polarizing and a mixed bag but it basically gave Gohan fans what they wanted, short of making him the main character and most powerful being in the universe, in a way that was actually believable and consistent with Gohan’s character.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

There is no where for Gohan to go. He's in the same boat as Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo. His character is set in stone (in his case it's 'lazy guy you can't rely on in a fight'). You could maybe squeeze some fun episodes out of family dynamically , maybe have a second go at the superhero thing but the ship has sailed on any dramatic potential.

Super gave him a whole ass character arc where he realized he needed to get his shit together to protect his family. Even re-training with Piccolo and Piccolo addressing Gohan’s tendency to get arrogant when he gets a little too much power.

I know Super is polarizing and a mixed bag but it basically gave Gohan fans what they wanted, short of making him the main character and most powerful being in the universe, in a way that was actually believable and consistent with Gohan’s character.

Wow , Gohan regresses so much that he becomes the weak link of the DB "heavyweights," has to be trained back up, and still accomplishes dick all? Call me crazy but it feels like I've seen that before...

[PurestEvil]

I know Super is polarizing and a mixed bag but it basically gave Gohan fans what they wanted, short of making him the main character and most powerful being in the universe, in a way that was actually believable and consistent with Gohan’s character.

In my opinion, it really was not THAT good. Because most of the development occurred in the TOP recruitment stage, it felt a tad rushed and unnatural. It should have been a long term arc starting from the U6 tournament.

Wow , Gohan regresses so much that he becomes the weak link of the DB "heavyweights," has to be trained back up, and still accomplishes dick all? Call me crazy but it feels like I've seen that before...

I would not say Gohan did "dick all", he faired pretty well in the TOP.

[ABED]

How was that not long term? He came to the conclusion that he needed to put his smarts and his battle power together after all of DBZ and Super. I don't know what you are looking for.

[PurestEvil]

How was that not long term? He came to the conclusion that he needed to put his smarts and his battle power together after all of DBZ and Super. I don't know what you are looking for.

I was specifically talking about DBS. In there, most of the development happens in too short of a time period. I don't think there was any intention to synthesize a character arc for Gohan between the two shows.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Wow , Gohan regresses so much that he becomes the weak link of the DB "heavyweights," has to be trained back up, and still accomplishes dick all? Call me crazy but it feels like I've seen that before...

I would not say Gohan did "dick all", he faired pretty well in the TOP.

I didn't like TOP so maybe it's my disdain for the arc talking.

Honestly I feel like Gohan should have been cut from it all together. That one moment of regret that he feels probably should have gone to Vegeta to help further set-up the 'spirit control' journey stuff he'd go on post-TOP. Woulda been a good way to show that Vegeta's empathy was starting to extend to people outside his sphere. (But that's probably hindsight talking.) Gohan is kinda just there to round out the numbers. He's a third tier fighter in a scenario where all the third tier threats feel forced so an already bloated story gets even more bloated.