Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[AliTheZombie13]

And if they're being "forced" on the filmmakers/creatives (for reasons beyond simply attracting a bigger audience and making more money): to what end or purpose? What possible reason is there that isn't to do with just increasing profits from a bigger audience?

Again: BE SPECIFIC AND NOT VAGUE: "pushing a political agenda" is NOT a specific answer AT ALL. What's the "agenda" in question? How is it political in nature (do you even know, like on a basic dictionary level, what the word "political" even means or refers to)? What's the purpose of the agenda? Who does the pushing of the agenda (whatever it is) benefit and how/why does it benefit them?

The great irony of this whole conversation is that the Disney higher-ups have been using all the profits from their "woke mind virus" productions to back up Republican politicians pushing for highly transphobic and homophobic laws in the US. The moment you realize that, the entire argument that Disney is somehow pushing left-wing politics goes straight down the drain.

[JulieYBM]

And if they're being "forced" on the filmmakers/creatives (for reasons beyond simply attracting a bigger audience and making more money): to what end or purpose? What possible reason is there that isn't to do with just increasing profits from a bigger audience?

Again: BE SPECIFIC AND NOT VAGUE: "pushing a political agenda" is NOT a specific answer AT ALL. What's the "agenda" in question? How is it political in nature (do you even know, like on a basic dictionary level, what the word "political" even means or refers to)? What's the purpose of the agenda? Who does the pushing of the agenda (whatever it is) benefit and how/why does it benefit them?

The great irony of this whole conversation is that the Disney higher-ups have been using all the profits from their "woke mind virus" productions to back up Republican politicians pushing for highly transphobic and homophobic laws in the US. The moment you realize that, the entire argument that Disney is somehow pushing left-wing politics goes straight down the drain.

This reminds me of something that I tell people a lot: "Dems will smile to my face and then call me a slur behind closed doors." This is pretty much the Disney playbook, and cishet people fall for it hook, line, and sinker.

[MasenkoHA]

And if they're being "forced" on the filmmakers/creatives (for reasons beyond simply attracting a bigger audience and making more money): to what end or purpose? What possible reason is there that isn't to do with just increasing profits from a bigger audience?

Again: BE SPECIFIC AND NOT VAGUE: "pushing a political agenda" is NOT a specific answer AT ALL. What's the "agenda" in question? How is it political in nature (do you even know, like on a basic dictionary level, what the word "political" even means or refers to)? What's the purpose of the agenda? Who does the pushing of the agenda (whatever it is) benefit and how/why does it benefit them?

The great irony of this whole conversation is that the Disney higher-ups have been using all the profits from their "woke mind virus" productions to back up Republican politicians pushing for highly transphobic and homophobic laws in the US. The moment you realize that, the entire argument that Disney is somehow pushing left-wing politics goes straight down the drain.

I could be wrong but I believed they backed out of funding those politicians, however it was only after a significant number of their employees spoke out against it so it wasn't like it was out of the goodness of their heart or detracts from any of the other shady and shitty things the Disney corporation has done. And is the height of absolute clownery for anyone to accuse Disney of "going woke"

[Mireya]

That's right, being aware about companies and diversity should be done some times... Not that diversity is bad at all, but now it's being used. There were occurrences in which industries and companies faced contradiction between their practices and public images. Not all companies will face it, of course, it's needed to evaluate each company individually. They have each their own reasons, their own ways of using the profit, many too engage in philanthropy and each case is a case. That's still capitalism though... It also should be noted that whether the goal is for profit, just ensuring the feeling of well representation is good, though it's wise to see how they employ such profit. Search case by case. It's a complex issue I tell ya.

[Mireya]

Meant to say *how it's used sometimes, with the profit being employed in politics that paint a different picture of inclusion. For example, Netflix who is praised for diversity portrayal with LGBTQ+, Latinos, Asian but has been reported underpaying and exploring their minorities employees, for example Mo'Nique, David Chappelle. Disney was also accused of censoring or tokenizing some of its minority characters, to appeal to certain masses.

https://oxfordre.com/communication/disp ... 8613-e-502

Showing diversity in media is important. The world IS diverse, seeing media constantly and observing your ethnicity or group misrepresented is an issue and can cause problems of self-esteem, invisibility... Only that it's aware to be attentive on how sometimes minorities are being represented, sometimes maybe as a marketing strategy and not as a means for in depth and genuine structural changes.

It's a case by case scenario of course and many medias outlet do use it for social change and good means, though that doesn't mean that being critique of how certain companies showcase diversity and why they do that is a bad thing, not at all. Critical media literacy also revolves around criticizing some forms of media representations, which ALSO includes perpetuated stereotypes of certain groups, tokenism. Diversity in media is a positive thing, sure, but it should be done well and faithful to their culture and representation. That's not being at all against diversity in media though.

[Jord]

As a large company, you have responsibilities towards the share holders. In order to maximize profits, excluding minorities or downplaying their presence is common. Not saying it's right but when you want to release a movie in every possible region you may have to make certain casting choices. The sad truth is that in a lot of big markets releases get blocked due to casting or content. Ultimately, money speaks.
I can imagine that the same goes for TOEI and Dragon Ball-related content in the near future.

[Basaku]

As a large company, you have responsibilities towards the share holders. In order to maximize profits, excluding minorities or downplaying their presence is common. Not saying it's right but when you want to release a movie in every possible region you may have to make certain casting choices. The sad truth is that in a lot of big markets releases get blocked due to casting or content. Ultimately, money speaks.
I can imagine that the same goes for TOEI and Dragon Ball-related content in the near future.

Except that the most racist, mysoginic and homophobic countires were never really that big part of the global box office, at least for western/east-asian productions, to begin with. Russia, Saudi Arabia etc.

China was for a moment, and then it heavily limited the release of foregin productions in general to prop its own domestic market.

Meanwhile, the far more open markets of Latin & South America keep growing, and even the traditionally conservative countries like Poland or Japan itself (in the eastern sense, not abrahamic-religions sense) move forward too - the Little Mermaid did well at Japanese box office for example.

So this argument holds little value anyway.

[Mireya]

https://www.statista.com/topics/5417/bo ... icOverview

This source highlights that China is still leading the biggest marketing office, with dollars avenue, followed by the US, Canada, and then Japan, South Korea. Therefore, the Asia market with China as the highlight is still very influential in regards to movies profits.

However, China also restricts a lot of movies and content that can enter and be consumed inside its borders. It has a very restrictive and regulated content from outside politics, as it's raised by the same statistic source:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/264 ... by-region/

Movies like Call Me By Your Name, among many others weren't allowed there.

So the access and profit from foreign movies in China with its huge population is affected by this controlling. I mean, Metallica didn't make its first show in China until 2013 iirc and they had done it in Russia after the restrictions and the cold war loosened up back in 1992.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/141 ... worldwide/

The same source also shows that the Latin American market is going through a steady growth and has a big demand for diversity cast in the movies, for it's rich with diversity, and the fact it's keeping a steady growth and making it strong in the international market consumption with its appreciation for movies which reflect diversity. Seeing this open and growing market, it shows that excluding or not taking into account minorities and diversity is not a profitable choice for large companies, as this growing market shows the valid desire for representation and visibility in movies.

[Basaku]

China shoot its own foot here. Hollywood absolutely pandered to the chinese market in the 2010s with either some exclusive scenes set in China or having content that was easy to edit-out. In 'return' China vastly limited the number of foreign productions released in the 2020s in general. Top Gun, Eternals, Black Widow etc didn't release there at all.

The damage is done and the studios will not be going out of their way again to suit the chinese market if they can't even know whether the movie will be released there at all or not.

And good riddance.

[Jord]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

[MasenkoHA]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

Regarding this topic, more women in Dragon Ball who actually fight, China has never showed aversion to female characters being action heroes on film. The fierce female warrior is even a stock archetype in wuxia films. So sorry bud you can't use "bUT cHiNa" for why Dragon Ball can't improve in this one specific area.

[JulieYBM]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

Regarding this topic, more women in Dragon Ball who actually fight, China has never showed aversion to female characters being action heroes on film. The fierce female warrior is even a stock archetype in wuxia films. So sorry bud you can't use "bUT cHiNa" for why Dragon Ball can't improve in this one specific area.

save me michelle yeoh and cynthia rothrock fight scene
save me,


(mr. toei sir, can i please have a scene like this for Chi-Chi and Videl?)

[Jord]

Chi-Chi was an interesting returning character at the tournament just before DBZ but it was similarly great to see her develop her character in DBZ.

[Kunzait_83]

Regarding this topic, more women in Dragon Ball who actually fight, China has never showed aversion to female characters being action heroes on film. The fierce female warrior is even a stock archetype in wuxia films. So sorry bud you can't use "bUT cHiNa" for why Dragon Ball can't improve in this one specific area.

I've long commented on here about the warped, bizarre phenomenon of fans who brainwash themselves into thinking exactly like a soulless, profit-obsessed Hollywood marketing executive... but another aspect of this phenomenon that also needs to be highlighted more is that this fanboy cosplaying of marketing execs also mimics them right on down to their total, abject ignorance of anything substantive to do with film history (particularly film history overseas/outside the U.S. and Hollywood). Even relatively RECENT film history.

Like, it does NOT take watching very many Chinese action movies at all to see that they've literally NEVER had any issue whatsoever with prominent, ass-kicking female action heroes. At pretty much any point in their whole history of film and TV.

Hell, plenty of the earliest Wuxia films from the 1920s silent era predominantly featured female lead fighters defeating male warriors.

But you don't even need to go that far back: just watch practically almost literally ANY Chinese martial arts, wuxia, or general action blockbuster movie from the last 40 years. You're going to see female action stars in them kicking butt front and center. Even on most broadcast TV shows.

Dragon Ball (along with Fist of the North Star for that matter), as I've said numerous times here in the past, is actually very UNLIKE most other Wuxia media in how male-centric its fights and cast of fighters are, as most Wuxia stories and media across most of the genre's history has been overwhelmingly populated with loads and loads and loads of ass-kicking female warrior characters from its earliest, ancient beginnings.

Even the Snake Sisters mythos (which I went into in detail in the Wuxia thread) is primarily centered around two incredibly powerful female demonic fighters... and that legend is SO ancient, dating back SO many tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of years ago, that it literally predates ancient Chinese writing systems and was originally passed down via oral/spoken tellings (before eventually being transferred to actual writing)!

Anyone here who seriously thinks that "inclusivity of women fighters" in film or TV is somehow alienating for a Chinese audience... that tells me you know absolutely nothing about Chinese action/martial arts media down to the most basic, rudimentary level.

And obviously, none of this is to suggest that China isn't without plenty of its own misogyny and general issues with women in numerous other areas of its culture and history of course: this specific topic just doesn't happen to be one of them, and it doesn't take an expert on Chinese history or media to see that. Literally just take a second to fucking GLANCE at their martial arts/action media landscape at literally ANY point in the past century.

If anything, having more of a role for prominent female fighters in a Chinese-produced Dragon Ball project (live action or otherwise) would probably be something that would make it MORE marketable and appealing to a mainstream Chinese audience, rather than less (and I'd LOVE to hear how the "forced diversity" crowd would try and spin that one if it actually happened).

Had Dragon Ball gotten a big budget Hong Kong-produced live action film adaptation in the late 80s/early 90s golden era of Hong Kong films, its all but virtually guaranteed that one of the "adaptational changes" made to it would've likely been a character like 23rd Budokai Chi Chi having her role as a prominent fighter VASTLY expanded to encompass WAY more than just that one little tournament bout (all the better to give a then A-list, marketable Hong Kong actress like Joey Wong, Anita Mui, Brigitte Lin, or Maggie Cheung or whomever a suitably meaty role to play in the film).

The only thing worse than regular, average fans trying to think and perceive these things exactly like a marketing executive is their also being incredibly bad at it.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Chi-Chi was an interesting returning character at the tournament just before DBZ but it was similarly great to see her develop her character in DBZ.

When Resurrection F released in theaters I remember asking why couldn't Chichi or Videl contribute to the fight somehow? Even if it was just a scene of them being in the know and prepping a safe zone for Maron so 18 could go fight since she's stronger than them and Krillin.

[Mireya]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

Well yeah, partially true as China faces challenges and potential losses due to restrictions of content in their film market but I don't think this it much relevant to female representation in DB as it should be analysed as its own issue taking the manga and analysing whether you think there was a proper or there was (it indeed was...many times) a misrepresentation of women... And how the Chinese audience responds them isn't that relevant to proper portrayal analysing it in the lens of harmful content and not simply profit for a consuming market, not to mention that martial arts in China is big for female too, one of the best mma fighters of all times is in UFC now, and is from China, as they are big with women taking roles in fighting:

"From JuJu Chan to Disney’s new Mulan, these seven women, empowered by MMA and martial arts, don’t need a man to save them"

-- From styles magazine

[Jord]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

Well yeah, partially true as China faces challenges and potential losses due to restrictions of content in their film market but I don't think this it much relevant to female representation in DB as it should be analysed as its own issue taking the manga and analysing whether you think there was a proper or there was (it indeed was...many times) a misrepresentation of women... And how the Chinese audience responds them isn't that relevant to proper portrayal analysing it in the lens of harmful content and not simply profit for a consuming market, not to mention that martial arts in China is big for female too, one of the best mma fighters of all times is in UFC now, and is from China, as they are big with women taking roles in fighting:

"From JuJu Chan to Disney’s new Mulan, these seven women, empowered by MMA and martial arts, don’t need a man to save them"

-- From styles magazine

Yeah, you are right. I was thinking more about other minorities such as black people, that get downplayed a lot in advertising for foreign movies in China. I believe the same goes for gay characters/scenes and such.

(The Mulan remake waa pretty bad rough. And it's production was icky to say the least)

[Mireya]

China shoot its own foot here. Hollywood absolutely pandered to the chinese market in the 2010s with either some exclusive scenes set in China or having content that was easy to edit-out. In 'return' China vastly limited the number of foreign productions released in the 2020s in general. Top Gun, Eternals, Black Widow etc didn't release there at all.

The damage is done and the studios will not be going out of their way again to suit the chinese market if they can't even know whether the movie will be released there at all or not.

And good riddance.

True, but it also depends on how they there outweigh pros and cons. It damages China's image to an extent and may make their population less acceptable or up to par to different cultures and practices, which would be very good and in terms of revenue too, but the government there also has specifics with this agenda as to protect Chinese own domestic films industry (which has shown robust recovery momentum and reached 54.91 billion yuan -- over 7.75 billions of dollars in 2023 --- https://www.statista.com/topics/5776/fi ... icOverview) and to, what they believe, protect Chinese own culture and values --- the latter which has damaging points but it's an option as well that may be perceived well depending on how they uproot certain values. For the Chinese government it also enhances its own power in the public opinion and the movie market, which to them contributes to maintain social stability, so it's not a simple matter they they're too stupid and couldn't see this loss in revenue coming.

[Cure Dragon 255]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

Regarding this topic, more women in Dragon Ball who actually fight, China has never showed aversion to female characters being action heroes on film. The fierce female warrior is even a stock archetype in wuxia films. So sorry bud you can't use "bUT cHiNa" for why Dragon Ball can't improve in this one specific area.

save me michelle yeoh and cynthia rothrock fight scene
save me,


(mr. toei sir, can i please have a scene like this for Chi-Chi and Videl?)

I wondered why I never heard of this movie and I am sad that mainstream Hollywood WILL NEVER produce something like this ever.

[Kunzait_83]

I wondered why I never heard of this movie

Its a Hong Kong action/martial arts film (called "Yes Madame" aka "In the Line of Duty": its a whole franchise with a bunch of sequels, 9 movies total), and its not a particularly obscure one either. It got 8 sequels (all of them female lead), so it wasn't exactly a flop either. Its literally a female/kung fu take on Lethal Weapon/buddy cop movies.

and I am sad that mainstream Hollywood WILL NEVER produce something like this ever.

Guys. Come on. Seriously. The examples of this are numerous and VERY mainstream.

--------------------------------------

Speaking to people broadly here: I'm literally begging and pleading with everyone in this whole forum to understand that movies - even mainstream Hollywood ones that Joe and Jane Average know about and have seen - extend well far, faaaaar beyond stuff like the MCU (or Harry Potter, or Disney/Pixar animations, live action Disney movies, or whatever else have you for small children and families).

The explosion of Hong Kong-inspired action/martial arts fight choreography and staging/blocking in major, A-list Hollywood movies (and with its share of female examples too: see the above linked clips) was REALLY prominent and mainstream (almost impossible to miss really) all throughout the late 90s and most of the 2000s.

We're not exactly talking obscure, apocryphal trivia for hardcore film nerds here: if you were alive, sentient, and had access to a television screen anytime post-1998 (and hell, there were plenty of examples before 1998 too), this stuff was all basically in your face throughout mainstream media for years and years and years across the 2000s (and even to one extent or another into the 2010s).