"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Did anyone notice that Beerus said to Vegeta that he'll need to train for a million years to match him, and Dyspo said the same thing to Goku? I'm pretty sure this confirms that Dyspo and Beerus are alternate universe counterparts.

Lol, tho it does confirm that jiren and beerus, regardless of who is more power, are on even footing with each other. And he said that knowing that goku was holding back blue.

[CriticalThinker]

On second thought the fight between Goku and Toppo/Dyspo annoys me some what. So please correct me if I am wrong about this as I am relying on my crappy memory but, the god form doesn't use up much stamina right? If I am correct about this I don't understand why Goku didn't use it against those two as it was clear SS2 wasn't working.

[batistabus]

There are a few things I think this chapter did excellently.

Toyotaro is doing a great job of showing that this tournament, while hectic at times, is a marathon rather than a sprint. Characters are constantly making choices that keep saving energy in mind. Goku does this by using SS2 against Dypso/Toppo. Jiren does this by waiting until Hit has him near the edge to speed up and counter. That's why I don't mind Hit not attempting a disqualifying kill; it seemed like he was going to defeat Jiren, and if that were to be the case, it wouldn't be wise to needlessly eliminate himself in the process.

Goku's post-BOG mentality is on full display here. One of my favorite moments from that film was Goku admitting to Beerus that - while he was happy he was able to get stronger with the help of his friends - he was melancholy that he wasn't able to reach the power of God alone. Turning down Hit's proposal to team up seems to be his way of redeeming himself from that moment. While it may seem selfish and stupid considering the stakes, Goku seems to think that the right push would render him capable of defeating Jiren. It's like Goku pushing Gohan against Cell. It's not as if he sees this as his only opportunity to eliminate Jiren, either. Even if the situation is desperate and he is unable to reach the next level (which we know is Migatte no Gokui), there are still two other fighters on his team as strong as Hit that he can rely on.

Goku has reached a plateau in his training, both physically and mentally. He is far below Beerus, but doesn't otherwise have a step to climb to help bridge that gap. Training with Vegeta helps, but now that they've settled into the power of completed Blue, they don't have much further to grow on that end. We see his senses growing dull at the beginning of this arc when he takes a bullet, and the resulting realization that the multiverse tournament might be just what he needs to regain his drive. I'm actually surprised with how nicely Toyotaro is tying these moments together.

I knew Hit was a different character from his anime counterpart, but this chapter widened that gap even further. When Hit first appears, everyone is surprised with how much he's talking to Goku. Where the character was practically (actually?) sleeping through the entire Universe 6 tournament up to that point, he was electrified by Goku's unusual personality and impressive martial arts prowess. Hit was so high above everybody in Universe 6 that nothing had excited him in centuries up until that point. Goku (re)ignited his passion for fighting, which seems to have motivated Hit right up until the ToP. Goku may be the only person that Hit cares about, and you somehow get the sense that Hit ultimately considers Goku his best friend. Even when Hit and Goku exchange banter in the anime, Hit still retains his stoic persona. That seems to have been shed quite a bit in this chapter. Also, I think his Time-Shift pose looked cool as hell.

I really appreciated the interactions between Jiren and Goku. From the "Nameless warrior of Universe 7" to the "SON GOKU DA!!" to the final exchange of the chapter, it's nice to see these characters having some chemistry early on.

[Bergamo]

I personally thought that this chapter was the best of the 3 parts of the tournament that have been released thus far. I expected a chapter with Roshi and u10, but this blew my expectations out of the water.

The reason why this was so good, was because we got a conclusion to Goku's plotline before it got stale. In chapter 33, Goku was completely disregarded by Jiren, and because of that he spent the next 2 and a half chapters seeking Jiren's respect and attention. He fights u11, only stopping to help Roshi in chapter 34, and when he does, Roshi tells him that his focus should be on Jiren. Goku gets the attention of Toppo and Dyspo in 35, and he sees Jiren fighting Hit.At that point Goku decides that rather than have his energy be drained away on opponents he doesn't care about, he's going to attack Jiren rather than waiting for Jiren come to him.

If this went on any longer it would have felt drawn out, but Goku finally goes after what he wants, and he fails. Jiren won't recognize Goku as a fighter, even calling him "nameless," and as Goku is about to be knocked off Hit appears. Goku's strongest form is nothing to his greatest opponent, and he realizes that he needs something stronger, like the mastery of self movement. I have no doubt that was what Goku meant when he mentioned a form that was "beyond blue," and this makes slot of sense because Goku has actually seen Beerus use Ultra Instinct.

There's not much I can say about the Hit portion of the manga besides that it was fantastic. Hit increased his physical capabilities so that he is relative to Completed Blue in base, and when he activated his full power he can slow down opponents, even if they are much stronger than him. Hit deserves this.

Hit forces Jiren to power up, even if only for a moment, and Goku's knowledge of fighting earns space in Jiren's head, although, not his respect. This ending also builds intrigue as to what will happen next. Will we get Goku vs Jiren part 2, or Vegeta vs u11? Will we get Roshi and u10 or the Saiyan girls? You really can't tell for sure what is going to happen, and that's how a tournament like this should be.

[Doctor.]

Goku's post-BOG mentality is on full display here. One of my favorite moments from that film was Goku admitting to Beerus that - while he was happy he was able to get stronger with the help of his friends - he was melancholy that he wasn't able to reach the power of God alone. Turning down Hit's proposal to team up seems to be his way of redeeming himself from that moment. While it may seem selfish and stupid considering the stakes, Goku seems to think that the right push would render him capable of defeating Jiren. It's like Goku pushing Gohan against Cell. It's not as if he sees this as his only opportunity to eliminate Jiren, either. Even if the situation is desperate and he is unable to reach the next level (which we know is Migatte no Gokui), there are still two other fighters on his team as strong as Hit that he can rely on.

It goes against Goku's arc in BoG. The point of BoG was that sacrifice is sometimes necessary and you must reject your own desires in order to protect your loved ones.

[ToshioWrites]

Jiren appears to be legend across all the universes as you had Arak mention him and Gin talk about how he is why u11 is the favorite

[Marlowe89]

Holy shit, complaining about Hit not getting any eliminations couldn't be missing the point any harder if it tried. That is utterly ridiculous and shows nothing less than complete ignorance of the arc's structure, premise and setting. If anything, the fact that Hit was the first character to challenge Jiren and get eliminated in this particular manner is exactly why this chapter was such a brilliant turning point.

People need to understand that this is a battle royale first and foremost. Competitors are literally fighting for their lives. Nobody's keeping a personal score. The order of conflicts isn't going to be perfectly organized, there's no room for pandering character fanservice. What you see is what you get -- weak and strong characters alike getting the shit kicked out of them because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time against the wrong opponent. Looking at the story on its own, especially without prior knowledge of Toei's production interviews or the anime, you wouldn't have the vaguest idea of who's getting thrown out next because most of the tough guys aren't even truly safer than the weaker ones. That's what establishes a lot of the greater tension in this version's narrative, and its execution works a gajillion times better than how the anime did it. It's a shame that people are likely partially desensitized to this because they're already familiar with the general progression of events depicted in the anime, so for them, and probably unbeknownst to them, it really didn't matter how it was written in the first place.

This chapter wouldn't have been NEARLY as impactful if Hit neatly had his promised rematch with Goku first and didn't get eliminated as soon as he was in the tournament. It's what accentuates the whole message that the arc is trying to convey, and Toyotaro even implemented the whole thing in a way that was remarkably complementary to Hit's abilities as well as his relationship with Goku. Complaining that Hit became a powerhouse demonstrates ignorance of that dynamic, as well, because it completely ignores how Goku inspired Hit to become stronger during their previous match. He isn't supposed to rely solely on his time-shifting techniques and doesn't even do that in the anime.

[OLKv3]

Did anyone notice that Beerus said to Vegeta that he'll need to train for a million years to match him, and Dyspo said the same thing to Goku? I'm pretty sure this confirms that Dyspo and Beerus are alternate universe counterparts.

Lol, tho it does confirm that jiren and beerus, regardless of who is more power, are on even footing with each other. And he said that knowing that goku was holding back blue.

That's a common insult, it has nothing to do with the story. It's just shit talking

[Kanassa]

I wouldn't say the art was bad, just off at times.
Ah, Toppo and Dyspo are truly embracing the Universe 7 school of fucking around.
"Me and Toppo are gonna take you on together!... Go kick his ass, Toppo!"
"There is no room for mercy... That's why I'm still showing it to you"
"I wanna fight Jiren!" Damn, Toppo, it's only been a day since you fought Goku and you're already his ex
When the skirt comes off... You know shit is serious.
Wait, so the Time Skip won't work on Jirn... But HIt's regular punches will? Unless I'm grossly misremembering how time skip works, if Time Skip won't hurt Jiren, your strength on its own won't. Not using Time Skip is just making you fight worse.
"I don't want to beat Jiren together, I want to beat him alone!" What did you think you were doing for the last few pages, buttercup? But yeah, I'm sure this will work wonders, just like with Zamasu, right?
"I'm only relying on my pure strength... THE TIME LAG DOESN'T COUNT!"
Was I supposed to take this elimination seriously? Becuase all I'm doing is just laughing at the drawing, especially's Jiren's Opponent's face.
"How did you realize that I wasn't going all out?" "I mean, Hit didn't immediately get swatted down like a fly or break down, so you HAD to be holding back"

Yeah, this chapter was underwhelming overall. Toyo does so little with characters that their eliminations, which are supposed to have some sort of impact, mean nothing. At best I'm going "Oh no, Jiren eliminated... Uh... That guy! I think he was something to do with punching. One Punch Dude?". Though, to be fair, while I don't like Toyo's interpretation of Hit's character, I have to commend it. I mean, he's one of the few manga characters Toyo allows to have more character. And now he's out... Shit.

[Bergamo]

Did anyone notice that Beerus said to Vegeta that he'll need to train for a million years to match him, and Dyspo said the same thing to Goku? I'm pretty sure this confirms that Dyspo and Beerus are alternate universe counterparts.

Lol, tho it does confirm that jiren and beerus, regardless of who is more power, are on even footing with each other. And he said that knowing that goku was holding back blue.

That's a common insult, it has nothing to do with the story. It's just shit talking

I don't think it has anything to do with the story, but I think it highlights personality similarities between Dyspo and Beerus.

[TKA]

On second thought the fight between Goku and Toppo/Dyspo annoys me some what. So please correct me if I am wrong about this as I am relying on my crappy memory but, the god form doesn't use up much stamina right? If I am correct about this I don't understand why Goku didn't use it against those two as it was clear SS2 wasn't working.

Think critically here. Super Saiyan God is a higher transformation than SS2. It burns up more energy than SS2 would. This is an endurance fight, not a sprint. Even if SSG is more efficient than SSGSS, it still burns up way more energy than SS2.

Nobody in this tournament has fought at full power yet except Hit, Goku (both against Jiren) and Frost. Everyone else is trying to conserve energy.

[Bergamo]

I wouldn't say the art was bad, just off at times.
Ah, Toppo and Dyspo are truly embracing the Universe 7 school of fucking around.
"Me and Toppo are gonna take you on together!... Go kick his ass, Toppo!"
"There is no room for mercy... That's why I'm still showing it to you"
"I wanna fight Jiren!" Damn, Toppo, it's only been a day since you fought Goku and you're already his ex
When the skirt comes off... You know shit is serious.
Wait, so the Time Skip won't work on Jirn... But HIt's regular punches will? Unless I'm grossly misremembering how time skip works, if Time Skip won't hurt Jiren, your strength on its own won't. Not using Time Skip is just making you fight worse.
"I don't want to beat Jiren together, I want to beat him alone!" What did you think you were doing for the last few pages, buttercup? But yeah, I'm sure this will work wonders, just like with Zamasu, right?
"I'm only relying on my pure strength... THE TIME LAG DOESN'T COUNT!"
Was I supposed to take this elimination seriously? Becuase all I'm doing is just laughing at the drawing, especially's Jiren's Opponent's face.
"How did you realize that I wasn't going all out?" "I mean, Hit didn't immediately get swatted down like a fly or break down, so you HAD to be holding back"

Yeah, this chapter was underwhelming overall. Toyo does so little with characters that their eliminations, which are supposed to have some sort of impact, mean nothing. At best I'm going "Oh no, Jiren eliminated... Uh... That guy! I think he was something to do with punching. One Punch Dude?". Though, to be fair, while I don't like Toyo's interpretation of Hit's character, I have to commend it. I mean, he's one of the few manga characters Toyo allows to have more character. And now he's out... Shit.

What are you even complaining about? This just seems like rambling. I can't even refute any of your points, because I have no idea what you're saying.

I'll try my best anyways. Hit never said he wouldn't use special techniques anymore, he said that he trained his body so he didn't have to rely ONLY on gimmicks. Hit trained to be as strong as completed blue, so that's pretty good. Next, Goku and Hit were fighting Jiren at the same time, but they weren't really working together. Once Hit offered to use a coordinated assault and Goku thought about the situation, it was then when he decided he would let Hit fight Jiren alone. Goku and Hit vs Jiren is just another example of chaos on the battlefield.

[batistabus]

It goes against Goku's arc in BoG. The point of BoG was that sacrifice is sometimes necessary and you must reject your own desires in order to protect your loved ones.

Yes, because Goku ultimately does the right thing when push comes to shove. But that doesn't mean he was content with that reality. Just as much as protecting his loved ones, accepting the power of God afterward was a strike to his pride that was necessary for getting to that next level of power. He will always protect those who need him, but what motivates his plot-driving actions are his unrelenting desire to improve as a martial artist.

[Doctor.]

It goes against Goku's arc in BoG. The point of BoG was that sacrifice is sometimes necessary and you must reject your own desires in order to protect your loved ones.

Yes, because Goku ultimately does the right thing when push comes to shove. But that doesn't mean he was content with that reality. Just as much as protecting his loved ones, accepting the power of God afterward was a strike to his pride that was necessary for getting to that next level of power. He will always protect those who need him, but what motivates his plot-driving actions are his unrelenting desire to improve as a martial artist.

Yes, and this is a step back. This is a fight for survival.

[Exline]

I'll reply to some of these comments later for those who dislike this chapter and those who enjoyed it. I agree with some of the points people have made regarding the mistakes made in this chapter.

But some like "Hit getting eliminated with no wins is bullshit" is honestly pushing me away from this thread.

[CriticalThinker]

On second thought the fight between Goku and Toppo/Dyspo annoys me some what. So please correct me if I am wrong about this as I am relying on my crappy memory but, the god form doesn't use up much stamina right? If I am correct about this I don't understand why Goku didn't use it against those two as it was clear SS2 wasn't working.

Think critically here. Super Saiyan God is a higher transformation than SS2. It burns up more energy than SS2 would. This is an endurance fight, not a sprint. Even if SSG is more efficient than SSGSS, it still burns up way more energy than SS2.

Nobody in this tournament has fought at full power yet except Hit, Goku (both against Jiren) and Frost. Everyone else is trying to conserve energy.

Okay I only remembered the part about God using less stamina so if that's the case then I can see why Goku was only using that form. It's just that I'm not a fan of fake tension and was annoyed by it in the anime and I was annoyed to see it in the fight between Goku and Toppo/Dyspo as well.

[ToshioWrites]

“Hit didn’t have any eliminations in the manga therefore this chapter is shit “

So what ? The entire pride troopers outside of Jiren had 0 eliminations in the anime. An old man who spent the last couple decades smoking that good stuff and jerking off had more eliminations than a future GoD and a guy too fast for even blue tier fighters. Krillin And Tien as wel did more than the u11 outside of Jiren

[Doctor.]

I see more people complaining about the people complaining about Hit getting no KOs than the people complaining about Hit getting no KOs.

[Marlowe89]

But some like "Hit getting eliminated with no wins is bullshit" is honestly pushing me away from this thread.

That's more or less how I feel. Toyotaro isn't perfect and he's hardly on Toriyama's level, but a lot of the criticisms I've seen levied at the manga this month are exceptionally ridiculous and unfounded. Much worse than usual, I'd venture to say.

I'll wait for the hysteria to die down before I give my full thoughts on the chapter.

[batistabus]

It goes against Goku's arc in BoG. The point of BoG was that sacrifice is sometimes necessary and you must reject your own desires in order to protect your loved ones.

Yes, because Goku ultimately does the right thing when push comes to shove. But that doesn't mean he was content with that reality. Just as much as protecting his loved ones, accepting the power of God afterward was a strike to his pride that was necessary for getting to that next level of power. He will always protect those who need him, but what motivates his plot-driving actions are his unrelenting desire to improve as a martial artist.

Yes, and this is a step back. This is a fight for survival.

It's always been a fight for survival. If Goku were behaving like this in an otherwise hopeless situation, that would be one thing. It's a risky play, but that's what sets Goku apart from someone like Freeza or No. 17.