The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[FNF]

You think that during the Cell Games, Trunks should be able to defeat Piccolo without transforming in Super Saiyan?

That's only an issue if you follow Kaioshin>Piccolo and from what we are shown/told after the Budokai Kaioshin is practically weak sauce who rivals Babidi of all people. It's almost like the Budokai never happened.

In regards to the versus, I say Kaioshin still takes it as I think Kaioshin should still be above present c18 who was stronger than future c18 who was stronger than base Trunks (returned to the future). It's really just personal preference though.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Trunks(End of Cell saga) vs Supreme Kai.

Who gets stomped?

If it's Trunks during the Cell Games, then he gets stomped. I think that Kaioushin is equal to Cell Games SS Goku, who's stronger than Boo arc Piccolo.

But if it's Trunks when he fights future Cell, I think that he'd increased enough in strength that he'd rival Kaioushin, who'd only be able to stall Trunks with his paralysis without attacking at the same time. And Kaioushin, being pretty incompetent, would get stomped.

[Fox666]

That's only an issue if you follow Kaioshin>Piccolo and from what we are shown/told after the Budokai Kaioshin is practically weak sauce who rivals Babidi of all people. It's almost like the Budokai never happened.

Piccolo didn't get a better treatment after that, so the problem is not what happened in the Budokai...

[FNF]

That's only an issue if you follow Kaioshin>Piccolo and from what we are shown/told after the Budokai Kaioshin is practically weak sauce who rivals Babidi of all people. It's almost like the Budokai never happened.

Piccolo didn't get a better treatment after that, so the problem is not what happened in the Budokai...

What do you mean?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Fact: Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. No ifs, no buts about it.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say.

[dprez]

Fact: Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. No ifs, no buts about it.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say.

I used to think, like a few years ago, that by that statement he could've meant he was simply a Godly being that he couldn't dare to fight or something, but Kaisohin really is stronger than Piccolo. It is a fact.

I don't think Kaioshin's so much stronger that Piccolo would get utterly destroyed right off the bat if they were to fight though.

[FNF]

Fact: Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. No ifs, no buts about it.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say.

You do realize that Piccolo only forfeited when he found out that he was part of the upper echelon of the Kaio right? Piccolo just falsely assumed Kaioshin was going to be amazing based off of his reputation.

I'll repeat that after the Budokai Kaioshin is just a slouch with nothing to offer.

Krillin says that 'not even' Piccolo could beat Boo when they had just witnessed Kaioshin getting beaten up and he slices Babidi in half when Kaioshin could only claim to be able to pin Babidi down.

[dprez]

^ I respect your opinion, and I must admit I'm not totally sold on this either way. I'd put my money on Kaioshin but I'm still not positive who is stronger. That quote could be blatantly saying, "He's stronger than me, I had no chance why bother", or "He's a God are you crazy I'm not gonna fight him".

I lean towards Kaioshin>Piccolo though. Seams to the the popular opinion for a reason.

[FNF]

Lets be honest here, the only reason it's the popular opinion is because many people just look at the strength checker and say 'hey, he must be stronger because he said so right...riiiiiiiiight?' It's more important to know the context of the statement than the statement itself.

Later events blatantly contradict that statement.

I'll be honest and say I only recently changed my mind in regards to Kaioshin vs Piccolo. I was the one telling people that 'Kaioshin>Piccolo is so obvious it's unbelieveable why people would think Piccolo>Kaioshin bla bla bla yada yada'. I just wasn't fully aware of the context of the statement until recently.

[Kaboom]

I still think "Kaioshin is strong but also a scaredy-cat wuss" is a good way to combine both interpretations into something coherent.

[dprez]

I still think "Kaioshin is strong but also a scaredy-cat wuss" is a good way to combine both interpretations into something coherent.

Also a good way to have Pui Pui and Yakon weaker than they might actually be.

[Fox666]

Well, Kaioshin wasn't afraid of Pui-pui... he was worried of Vegeta fighting him, and was surprised by how easily Vegeta defeated him as Babidi and Dabura were... He was truly afraid of Yakon, but Yakon had an special ability and Dabura also hyped him, so I am not sure if he was really meant to be weaker than Yakon.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Later events blatantly contradict that statement.

They don't, though. People have different interpretations. I'll admit that that scene (well, the entire Boo arc in general, and specifically the part in the spaceship - I mean, seriously, Vegeta calls Kibito a "bumbler" for getting killed by Dabra, but does that mean that Kibito's close to or stronger than Dabra?) isn't written particularly well (Piccolo forfeiting after Kaioushin reads his mind?), but, as the Strength Checker says, Piccolo's basically saying that Kaioushin's stronger than him.

Just because Kaioushin doesn't offer much after the Budoukai doesn't automatically mean that he's weaker than Piccolo. He was useless because the Saiyans and Boo were so much more powerful than him, so he couldn't do anything but gape in fear and caution the others.

And I think you're looking into Kuririn's line too deeply, but besides, what does he know? He's not Piccolo, who was standing there in front of Kaioushin, and would've had a better gauge of his power. When Gokuu says that it's no longer them that'll have easy wins, Kuririn is confused and says that he didn't seem that great, and later even contests Piccolo's statement, although still somewhat scared, since he has to fight him in his next match. But either way, all Kuririn's saying is that Piccolo isn't a match for Boo, regardless of whether or not Kaioushin was beaten by him. It still means Piccolo doesn't have a chance.

Not to mention that none of them could even estimate his battle power, as mentioned by Vegeta.

And Bobbodi was dangerous because of his magic. He's not strong physically, and Piccolo, who can use magic himself, may've caught him off-guard as he was shouting at Boo to come over and deal with him. But Bobbodi wasn't particularly afraid of Kaioushin because he had Dabra, the King of the Demon Realm who arguably had magic even stronger than Kaioushin's (since Kaioushin was afraid of him, and pretty much anyone associated with Bobbodi and Boo, as they killed his older and stronger comrades), by his side, which he even mentions.

Relevant quotes below.

Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P12.7-9
Piccolo: “…Wh-who are they?...”
Goku: “…I dunno…But there’s no doubt that it’s no longer just us who are gonna have easy wins…”
Kuririn: “Eh? I wonder…He didn’t seem that great…He just looked like a weird guy to me.”
Note: In Japanese it’s not actually clear here whether Goku and Piccolo are referring to both Kaioshin and Kibito or just Kaioshin. Kuririn though says yatsu (‘guy’) rather than yatsu-ra (‘guys’) so he’s almost certainly talking about just Kaioshin. As the conversation continues at the start of the next chapter though, Goku and Piccolo are clearly wondering who both of them are.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Chapter: 446 (DBZ 252), P1.5
Context: discussing Babidi
Goku: “Is he strong?...”
Kaioshin: “He uses troublesome magic, but his power itself shouldn’t be anything special. His father Bibidi was like that…”

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P4.3
Kaioshin: “…He really is completely powerless, but he uses fearsome magic, so you absolutely must not make light of him…He’s good enough to make even Dabra into his underling”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1
Dabra: “Even if Kaioshin comes, he can’t do anything as long as I’m here…”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.3
Context: after Dabra says he can defeat Gohan
Babidi: “Kikkikkiki…That’s how it is, Kaioshin…I won’t be done in like my papa was. My magic power is definitely greater than his, and I’ve got Dabra with me too…”

Chapter: 464 (DBZ 270), P7.1
Context: Piccolo wants to go rescue Kaioshin from Boo
Kuririn: “…Control yourself…I know how you feel, but you’ve got to control yourself…! Frankly, even you aren’t any match for him…absolutely not…”

[dbgtFO]

Krillin says that 'not even' Piccolo could beat Boo when they had just witnessed Kaioshin getting beaten up and he slices Babidi in half when Kaioshin could only claim to be able to pin Babidi down.

They didn't witness Kaioshin getting beaten up. When they were turned back to normal Kaioshin was already lying on the ground, defeated, with Majin Buu about to eat his ass.

[dprez]

Well, Kaioshin wasn't afraid of Pui-pui... he was worried of Vegeta fighting him, and was surprised by how easily Vegeta defeated him as Babidi and Dabura were... He was truly afraid of Yakon, but Yakon had an special ability and Dabura also hyped him, so I am not sure if he was really meant to be weaker than Yakon.

You mean Kaioshin right?

My thoughts are that Yakon must be stronger than Kaioshin based on how Dabura and Babidi react, who should no full well Kaioshin's abilities. I'm not gonna turn this into a base saiyans power debate, but from where I stood a few years ago, I've lowered their boo saga power levels quite a bit from where I had them. Goku dodging Yakon, who is possibly a good deal stronger than Kaioshin, doesn't necessarily mean Base Goku > Yakon > Kaioshin, but It does speak volumes of what base Goku's strength could be.

[FNF]

I think i'm just going to agree to disagree on this one but to me those quotes still point towards Piccolo>Kaioshin inc Babidi rivaling Kaioshin in one aspect or another.

Vegeta even alludes to Kaioshin's 'nature' being the reason why they thought he was going to be something.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, Kaioshin wasn't afraid of Pui-pui... he was worried of Vegeta fighting him, and was surprised by how easily Vegeta defeated him as Babidi and Dabura were... He was truly afraid of Yakon, but Yakon had an special ability and Dabura also hyped him, so I am not sure if he was really meant to be weaker than Yakon.

You mean Kaioshin right?

My thoughts are that Yakon must be stronger than Kaioshin based on how Dabura and Babidi react, who should no full well Kaioshin's abilities. I'm not gonna turn this into a base saiyans power debate, but from where I stood a few years ago, I've lowered their boo saga power levels quite a bit from where I had them. Goku dodging Yakon, who is possibly a good deal stronger than Kaioshin, doesn't necessarily mean Base Goku > Yakon > Kaioshin, but It does speak volumes of what base Goku's strength could be.

Dabra and Bobbodi actually may not know Kaioushin's abilities, or at least even the full extent of it. Kaioushin only ever fought his father, Bibbidi, and Bobbodi was just carrying on his work. Like Pui Pui, Kaioushin was afraid of Yakon because of his reputation (and you can't know everything about a person just from their reputation) and he was cautious of anyone associated with Bobbodi and Boo, as they had previously killed his older and stronger comrades, so Kaioushin knows how powerful Bobbodi's magic is and the kind of unpredictable underlings he could possess.

And I don't know you can say that Yakon's stronger than Kaioushin, yet base Gokuu isn't stronger than Kaioushin. That doesn't make any sense.

I mean, seriously, is it just people refusing to accept that scaredy-cat wuss Kaioushin is stronger than awesome front-runner Piccolo? My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

[dprez]

Vegeta even alludes to Kaioshin's 'nature' being the reason why they thought he was going to be something.

And yet another good point for one of these two sides.

Dabra and Bobbodi actually may not know Kaioushin's abilities, or at least even the full extent of it. Kaioushin only ever fought his father, Bibbidi, and Bobbodi was just carrying on his work. Like Pui Pui, Kaioushin was afraid of Yakon because of his reputation (and you can't know everything about a person just from their reputation) and he was cautious of anyone associated with Bobbodi and Boo, as they had previously killed his older and stronger comrades, so Kaioushin knows how powerful Bobbodi's magic is and the kind of unpredictable underlings he could possess.

And I don't know you can say that Yakon's stronger than Kaioushin, yet base Gokuu isn't stronger than Kaioushin. That doesn't make any sense.

I never said Base Goku isn't stronger than Kaioshin. I pretty much said I just don't know. It's true they may have not known Kaioshin's power, but still, as easily as Kibito was one-shotted by Dabura, who is Kaioshin body-guard after all, they must know that Kaioshin would not be able to handle Yakon, and they even included three 3 saiyans after Pui-Pui was decimated.

I mean, seriously, is it just people refusing to accept that scaredy-cat wuss Kaioushin is stronger than awesome front-runner Piccolo? My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

If you missed it, I did say that I think Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo.

[CatouttaHell]

I feel it's best to just throw out the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai at this point. Toriyama probably went a different route after that, and nothing from there should count IMO.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”

Kibito heavily implies that SSjin 2 Gohan's power wouldn't be amazing if he was a Kaioshin, and Kaioshin himself isn't shaken at all by sensing him. Strong implications here that Kaioshin is SSjin 2 tier, which obviously isn't the case considering he was heavily implied to be one-shot material for even Pui-Pui.

This pretty much seals the deal though IMO:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Either Base Vegeta blew out SSjin 2 Gohan's power when he killed Pui-Pui, or Toriyama decided to retcon the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai.

Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”

It also makes no sense for Son to be amazed at all over this if he had just heard 5 minutes ago that Kaioshin is worlds above Piccolo.

Kibito ~ Base Gohan is contradicted as well by Kibito not even being able to budge the Z Sword, and Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo is contradicted by Base Trunks (Pre) struggling with piddling #18.

[Kaboom]

Kibito heavily implies that SSjin 2 Gohan's power wouldn't be amazing if he was a Kaioshin, and Kaioshin himself isn't shaken at all by sensing him. Strong implications here that Kaioshin is SSjin 2 tier

Later we learn that East Kaioshin was the weakest of the four, the other three all being stronger than him to some degree, quite possibly in the same league as the Super Saiyan 2s. So just like Kibito said, that much power wouldn't be unnatural for a Kaioshin. Likewise, East Kaioshin himself wouldn't be surprised by the fact that such a power exists, or anything drastic like that (Gohan's power pales in comparison to Boo's as well, after all). It doesn't necessarily reflect on his own power.