"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[kemuri07]

I don't understand what you want.

Since that'd effectively end the story.

Not really. The effective way to handle a battle royale in Dragon Ball would be to have every fighter go all-out from the start and fight characters at their own level, that is if you want to have prolonged fights. A battle royale where "conserving stamina" is the most important thing doesn't work in Dragon Ball when a small power gap is enough to one shot characters with no effort.

If you were to think critically about this, there's absolutely no reason why the strongest fighters in the tournament couldn't just power-up and neck-chop the weaklings and throw them out. It certainly wouldn't tire them out, as The Monkey King said, you don't get tired from swatting a fly.

Also, this whole "conserving stamina" excuse was asinine back when people used it to defend the anime, and it's asinine now. Surely powering-up to defeat a weaker opponent with one hit consumes less stamina than getting battered around for 48 minutes.

But that's not really a battle royale. The whole point is that everyone can be matched with anyone regardless of their power levels--that's what makes it chaotic.

Also, i dunno, probably helps to have some level of suspension of disbelief. Goku isn't going to get conked out by a single blow, because of course he isn't. And I'm not going to go down the road of "comparing power levels" because that's a dumb road to take and some of you guys take that shit waaaaay to seriously.

Also that fly comparison doesn't really make any sense

[kemuri07]

I disagree. Toriyama's manga could be pretty impactful on its own. The man was a master at making his manga feel atmospheric (which is why it was so easy to adapt it into anime form in the first place) and all the story beats had the necessary "oomph" to them to lay the point home. Toyotaro's manga feels exactly like what it is: a pale imitation. He doesn't grasp Toriyama's masterful paneling, his charming art style and character expressions nor his first-rate choreography. Of course, he is limited to having a monthly manga, where each page feels cramped and he doesn't have the time to set-up tension and convey mood through multiple panels or even pages of establishing shots, but the complaints about his manga feeling dry are still legitimate.

Add to that the fact that he's a mediocre storyteller, who feels like he's just ticking off boxes on a checklist, one who tries to cram as many references and tie-ins as possible in order to increase his fan cred rather than writing his own story, and you can see why his manga feels so flavorless. It's not his vision nor is it Toriyama's vision. It's Toriyama's poorly thought-out, half-assed vision given form through Toyotaro's lack of talent.

You're going to have to explain this one, this kind of makes no sense. I was with you to a point, and I do agree that Toyotaro isn't anywhere as good as Toriyama was at the height of Dragon Ball.

[ekrolo2]

I disagree. Toriyama's manga could be pretty impactful on its own. The man was a master at making his manga feel atmospheric (which is why it was so easy to adapt it into anime form in the first place) and all the story beats had the necessary "oomph" to them to lay the point home. Toyotaro's manga feels exactly like what it is: a pale imitation. He doesn't grasp Toriyama's masterful paneling, his charming art style and character expressions nor his first-rate choreography. Of course, he is limited to having a monthly manga, where each page feels cramped and he doesn't have the time to set-up tension and convey mood through multiple panels or even pages of establishing shots, but the complaints about his manga feeling dry are still legitimate.

It was never as impactful as the various adaptations for me, it or other things I experienced first in manga or comic form then saw the adaptations. Which is not to say Toriyama couldn't pull off some impressive things, but the fact of the matter is animation and film has audiovisual elements manga and comics lack and simply cannot replicate that creates much more impactful experiences.

To use a Dragon Ball example, Goku's first SS transformation is pretty cool in the manga, especially the withering look he sends at Freeza when he does it. It can't touch the versions seen in the original anime, Kai or the F extended cut remake precisely for those same audiovisual ques. The music choices alone elevate it to another level the manga can't touch.

Which is not to say I'm excusing Toyotaro, far from it, his inability to have a unique flavor besides Toriyama imitator is precisely my problem with their choice of making him Toriyama's "successor". I personally feel they should've gotten a more experienced, actual mangaka involved to make the Super manga. It might not fit the aesthetics of DB if they went that route but fuck it, it's an alternate continuity from the anime so might as well extend the difference into the visuals too.

Or if they wanted to get an imitator and nothing else, I'm sure better one's exist out there to use.

[Doctor.]

But that's not really a battle royale. The whole point is that everyone can be matched with anyone regardless of their power levels--that's what makes it chaotic.

Also, i dunno, probably helps to have some level of suspension of disbelief. Goku isn't going to get conked out by a single blow, because of course he isn't. And I'm not going to go down the road of "comparing power levels" because that's a dumb road to take and some of you guys take that shit waaaaay to seriously.

Also that fly comparison doesn't really make any sense

Yes, then be consistent and don't pull the "they're conserving stamina" cop-out. If weak characters are accidentally paired up with stronger characters, then the weak character should be eliminated. If you don't want that specific weak character to get eliminated so soon, then pair him up with other weak characters, or allow him to use his stronger transformations from the get-go in Goku's case. Again, a "chaotic" battle royale where conserving stamina is a thing, in Dragon Ball, only works if people are all comparable to each-other in strength or everyone is somehow only fighting the opponents as strong as them.

It's not about comparing powerlevels. It's simple logic being used here. If a character A is massively stronger than character B, character A should have no difficulty in knocking character B. That's how Dragon Ball has always worked. You don't need to be calculating how strong each character is exactly. The fly comparison makes sense because that's how Dragon Ball works. You've had characters swat away weaker characters simply by powering-up. You've had Freeza swat away Gohan with his tail. How much energy do you think those characters are wasting by doing that? Not much, I bet. Do you think they'd lose less energy by powering-down and getting battered around by those weaker characters? Probably not.

You're going to have to explain this one, this kind of makes no sense. I was with you to a point, and I do agree that Toyotaro isn't anywhere as good as Toriyama was at the height of Dragon Ball.

Seems pretty self-explanatory. Toyotaro seems more concerned in checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script and making as many callbacks and tie-ins to old material as possible (the incessant references, Trunks training with the Kaioshin, etc) rather than inserting his own ideas into the story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but Toyotaro is still excessively focused on the past. You don't have to take my word for it, Toriyama himself said it somewhere.

Or if they wanted to get an imitator and nothing else, I'm sure better one's exist out there to use.

DragongarowLee and Young Jijii spring to mind.

I think a big part of why Toyotaro's art feels so amateurish (besides his complete lack of grasp on how anatomy works) is that his art has no varying line width. All lines are drawn with the same thickness. This was a problem the anime had before the ToP filter was put into place, and it severely takes away the impact from a certain scene. Compare this to this.

[kemuri07]

It's simple logic being used here. If a character A is massively stronger than character B, character A should have no difficulty in knocking character B. That's how Dragon Ball has always worked.

Not really? If that's the case, than that'd apply to any situation where Goku had a disadvantage. But it doesn't. Typically speaking when a stronger character is able to KO a weaker character, that's the story telling us that the stronger character is not just stronger--the weaker character never had a chance. We saw that in this very chapter with Jiren and Hit Or it's in service of a gag (Cell vs. Mr. Satan). I never got the sense through both the manga and the anime that Toppo is so overwhelmingly powerful that he could take Goku with ease. But that's not going to happen to Goku, not only because he's the main character, but also because Goku is strong and experience enough that that's just not going to happen.

More importantly, DB's MO has always been to have characters not fight at full strength. Testing and playing with each other before they go at it for real. It's called escalation. and that's been a part of the battle anime since forever. So I'm not entirely sure why it bothers you in this instance.

rather than inserting his own ideas into the story.

Considering how radically different the manga is from the anime, I thought that's exactly what he's doing.

[TKA]

If you were to think critically about this

I like where this is going. I like thinking critically.

there's absolutely no reason why the strongest fighters in the tournament couldn't just power-up and neck-chop the weaklings and throw them out.

This isn't thinking critically.

1. How do the strong fighters know who the weaklings are if everyone is holding back? Frieza had to tell Frost that Tenshinhan, Krillin and Roshi were weak.

2. How would the pairing up actually work? Do the strong people agree not to fight each other while they take out the people who have revealed themselves to be weak?

It certainly wouldn't tire them out

Incorrect. If they power up to max power just to knock out some weaklings, they're bleeding energy. This has been a thing established since Goku and Frieza on Namek. You can't power up to your max without losing energy. Even into the Cell Arc, full-powered super saiyan existed to try to mitigate the power drain. We see it again in the Super manga when Hit goes to full power and starts bleeding energy.

Also, it should be noted we saw a strong character take out weaker ones last chapter and it tired him out enough to get knocked out easily.

Also, this whole "conserving stamina" excuse was asinine back when people used it to defend the anime, and it's asinine now.

No it isn't. This is a battle royale, not a one-on-one fight. This isn't rounds. This isnt even about eliminating as many people as possible. It's about trying to last until the end, since the team with the most members left is who wins.

Surely powering-up to defeat a weaker opponent with one hit consumes less stamina than getting battered around for 48 minutes.

Sure. But a few things need to happen. You need to:

1. Identify the weaklings without a shadow of a doubt.
2. Get the stronger warriors to not take you out while you're attacking the weaklings.
3. Not hemorrhage energy when you go to full power.

This is an endurance fight, not a Deathbattle video.

[IM21]

DragongarowLee and Young Jijii spring to mind.

I like those two's art but Toyotaro's drawings would also look much better if he wasnt on a schedule. Making a 45 page monthly manga isn't that easy. He pretty much has just a one week advantage than the guys that make weekly manga.

[Marlowe89]

It doesn't take any effort to one shot someone hundreds of time weaker than you are.

It does if you're suppressed, which Toppo was. It's the same situation as the exhibition phase where Toppo powered up to his full strength only after Goku became a Super Saiyan God, which further mirrors the Tournament of Power where several fighters are intentionally holding back at the start to conserve their strength.

Now whether you think that's how Dragon Ball's scaling should work is something I personally don't care to discuss because I think it's seriously nitpicking over semantics after a certain point. I personally didn't care for the idea that a character could karate chop another character into oblivion over a marginal difference in strength in Toriyama's later arcs, so I have absolutely no issues with Super adopting a different kind of internal logic there.

[Doctor.]

1. How do the strong fighters know who the weaklings are if everyone is holding back? Frieza had to tell Frost that Tenshinhan, Krillin and Roshi were weak.

The same way Nail knew Freeza was still holding back his power. The same way Goku this chapter knew Jiren was still holding back his power. They're experienced fighters who know how to sense Ki.

2. How would the pairing up actually work? Do the strong people agree not to fight each other while they take out the people who have revealed themselves to be weak?

Like I said, the strong people fight each-other first if you don't want the weaklings dropping out like flies. Goku and Hit going straight at Jiren at the start of the tournament is a good thing.

Obviously it would seem pretty convenient that the strong fighters just happen to fight each-other but it'd be no less arbitrary than it already is now.

Incorrect. If they power up to max power just to knock out some weaklings, they're bleeding energy. This has been a thing established since Goku and Frieza on Namek. You can't power up to your max without losing energy. Even into the Cell Arc, full-powered super saiyan existed to try to mitigate the power drain. We see it again in the Super manga when Hit goes to full power and starts bleeding energy.

They don't need to power-up to max to defeat a weakling.

Also, it should be noted we saw a strong character take out weaker ones last chapter and it tired him out enough to get knocked out easily.

Frost is weak.

No it isn't. This is a battle royale, not a one-on-one fight. This isn't rounds. This isnt even about eliminating as many people as possible. It's about trying to last until the end, since the team with the most members left is who wins.

Yes, this is a battle royale. In an arena where it would be extremely easy to do something like this:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Now, be honest. How much energy do you realistically think it would take for someone like Jiren or Freeza to do that and instantly eliminate about 70% of the competition? Again, it takes no energy to swat a fly.

Sure. But a few things need to happen. You need to:

1. Identify the weaklings without a shadow of a doubt.
2. Get the stronger warriors to not take you out while you're attacking the weaklings.
3. Not hemorrhage energy when you go to full power.

This is an endurance fight, not a Deathbattle video.

There are fabricated problems that the characters in the original manga never had.

[Doctor.]

Now whether you think that's how Dragon Ball's scaling should work is something I personally don't care to discuss because I think it's seriously nitpicking over semantics after a certain point. I personally didn't care for the idea that a character could karate chop another character into oblivion over a marginal difference in strength in Toriyama's later arcs, so I have absolutely no issues with Super adopting a different kind of internal logic there.

I don't like this idea of "I'm not a fan of how the original manga worked, so let's throw consistency out of the window and do things differently for the sake of the spectacle." You can have both. If there was some creativity in the writing, then it would allow for the consistency in regards to how the fights work AND for an interesting story to be told both at the same time. An example I used earlier: just have the strongest people fight each other from the start.

This phony tension where Goku's getting hammered for 48 minutes and presumably losing more stamina than just going for the win with his strongest forms isn't very interesting.

[Marlowe89]

I don't like this idea of "I'm not a fan of how the original manga worked, so let's throw consistency out of the window and do things differently for the sake of the spectacle."

Well, to be frank, I don't particularly care whether you like it or not. The one-shot philosophy embraced in much of Dragon Ball's latter half didn't appeal to me at all and was honestly kind of boring. The "new" (and even that's debatable) stamina conservation mechanic that allows for a more even playing field makes the fights far more interesting in my view and represented one of those extremely rare concepts that I thought actually surpassed the original manga, at least in theory.

Different strokes for different blokes.

[Exline]

I also want to point out what a few others have stated about Toyotaro's storyboarding for fight scenes. I think he really needs to tone it down with the amount of panels for a fight. I feel as if he includes way too many unneccesary panels that don't really add much to fight, like a flurry of punches and some of his anticipation panels that are done at the most awkward of times. I really wish he can improve this. It's one of the very few problems I have with his manga.

The panels are legit necessary, they show a continuous flow of attacks with no pause. That is Dragonball fight scenes. What do you mean by "anticipation panels?"

I may have been overexaggerting for this chapter in particular. I gave it a 3rd read and notice he didn't really disappoint with the panels as much this time for me. But I have felt this way constantly with other chapters. Moreso the beginning of this series.

I'm referring to scenes like this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
This panel doesn't feel it adds anything at all to the fight. It actually feels like it slows the pace of the fight.

If we remove that panel, I think we can get a better sense of pace in the battle. We're more used to much faster battles like in the anime and original manga.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The kick looks much faster now without a panel of it slowly winding up. Especially when the kick doesn't have much impact on it. If it doesn't amount to anything, what is the need for a panel such as this? It works better in the later half of the chapter in scenarios such as where Jiren clenches his fist and prepares to uppercut Hit. But here, it doesn't really add anything imo. It's useless and unnecessary. I only refer to it that way because it would've been fine without it. I see it as a waste of time on Toyotaro's part as well. It's not the only panel I have a problem with it, but it's one of a few found in multiple chapters.

Toriyama captures the pace of the battle better with storyboarding like this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
He makes the attack look fierce, powerful and fast.
We did not need to see Goku pull his fist back to give more force behind his punch. It is implied immediately once we see the panel.
In the following page, Toriyama also slows down the pace to demonstrate the emotion the antagonist is feeling after the attack. Something Toyotaro has trouble conveying sometimes. Most of the time he excels at it, but sometimes he doesn't.


Also pages like these:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Where it's just a page of nothing but dialogue with multiple panels I have a problem with as well. I do enjoy the dialogue and I understand that if it were all clumped into fewer panels, than it would not be as great. The panels themselves are what bore me. There is nothing to them. It just changes to someone else's face nearly each sentence and it's annoying. I feel Toyotaro could have definitely done much better with these scenes. It sometimes seems that he is trying to make these monthly chapters seem exactly like an anime episode which I personally don't think works too well. Why make a comic feel less of a comic?

Whilst discussing about how to beat Jiren, the panel could be focused just on him walking towards them whilst they discuss what they plan to do with him. But that's not what happen's here. To me, it's honestly too many expressions for one page. And the large quantity of panels on this page just for dialogue also makes it feel bloated because it seems unnecessary and be done with shorter. The dialogue would have to be dialed back, but I think it'd be for the better in cases like these.

( Apologies for my ranting, I only want Toyotaro to get better ); )

I disagree. Toriyama's manga could be pretty impactful on its own. The man was a master at making his manga feel atmospheric (which is why it was so easy to adapt it into anime form in the first place) and all the story beats had the necessary "oomph" to them to lay the point home. Toyotaro's manga feels exactly like what it is: a pale imitation. He doesn't grasp Toriyama's masterful paneling, his charming art style and character expressions nor his first-rate choreography. Of course, he is limited to having a monthly manga, where each page feels cramped and he doesn't have the time to set-up tension and convey mood through multiple panels or even pages of establishing shots, but the complaints about his manga feeling dry are still legitimate.

Add to that the fact that he's a mediocre storyteller, who feels like he's just ticking off boxes on a checklist, one who tries to cram as many references and tie-ins as possible in order to increase his fan cred rather than writing his own story, and you can see why his manga feels so flavorless. It's not his vision nor is it Toriyama's vision. It's Toriyama's poorly thought-out, half-assed vision given form through Toyotaro's lack of talent.

I somewhat agree. Toriyama excels at that, but I think we can all definitely say the anime is what makes Dragon Ball much more enjoyable. The same goes for other manga to anime adaptations.

I disagree with the mediocre storytelling. Toyotaro is doing wonders with it. The dialogue alone in this chapter should suffice for that. He even adds his own ideas into the mix which I enjoy. He could do better, but what he does is satisfying enough. I believe he is doing slightly better with this tournament than the anime. I have only few problems, but I enjoy it nonetheless.

Or if they wanted to get an imitator and nothing else, I'm sure better one's exist out there to use.

DragongarowLee and Young Jijii spring to mind.

I think a big part of why Toyotaro's art feels so amateurish (besides his complete lack of grasp on how anatomy works) is that his art has no varying line width. All lines are drawn with the same thickness. This was a problem the anime had before the ToP filter was put into place, and it severely takes away the impact from a certain scene. Compare this to this.

Odd how you want an even worst storyteller like Young Jijii. I will admit that his art is great but his panelling is far worse than Toyotaro's. I do agree about you on that last part relating to his line art.

Now whether you think that's how Dragon Ball's scaling should work is something I personally don't care to discuss because I think it's seriously nitpicking over semantics after a certain point. I personally didn't care for the idea that a character could karate chop another character into oblivion over a marginal difference in strength in Toriyama's later arcs, so I have absolutely no issues with Super adopting a different kind of internal logic there.

I don't like this idea of "I'm not a fan of how the original manga worked, so let's throw consistency out of the window and do things differently for the sake of the spectacle." You can have both. If there was some creativity in the writing, then it would allow for the consistency in regards to how the fights work AND for an interesting story to be told both at the same time. An example I used earlier: just have the strongest people fight each other from the start.

This phony tension where Goku's getting hammered for 48 minutes and presumably losing more stamina than just going for the win with his strongest forms isn't very interesting.

I mean he does state that during his fight with Toppo and Dyspo, that he was running out of "juice" which is probably another word for stamina/ki.

It also a battle royale. You can't always fight who you want to fight. And Toyotaro made it realistic by having Jiren ignore Goku. Goku had to jump in at full power to get his attention.

I can't understand why people want these fights to start off with everyone at max power. If that was the case, these fights would be over in a matter of seconds. It would make this Battle Royale boring. I'm fine with the approach Goku and the others are taking by convserving their stamina for later. They don't know their opponents very well and are unaware of what they are capable of.

You say you can tell these characters are weak by sensing their ki, but have you also forgotten characters are capable of lowering their ki to avoid being detected? They may also have unexpected transformations like Ganos of U4.

Stating that fighting in one of your lower transformations bring about "phony tension" makes no sense to me. He is being pushed to use more and more of his power. What exactly about that situation makes the tension seem "fake"? I don't think every character can simply do a one-shot KO like Jiren on someone slightly weaker than them. I think you may need to explain this more cause I am not understanding it very well.

[TKA]

Well, to be frank, I don't particularly care whether you like it or not. The one-shot philosophy embraced in much of Dragon Ball's latter half didn't appeal to me at all and was honestly kind of boring. The "new" (and even that's debatable) stamina conservation mechanic that allows for a more even playing field makes the fights far more interesting in my view and represented one of those extremely rare concepts that I thought actually surpassed the original manga, at least in theory.

Different strokes for different blokes.

I think you're overstating the "one shot" philosophy a bit here.

In the original manga, the only time we see someone just get neck chopped into unconsciousness in the latter part of the story was Vegeta knocking out Trunks and Goten. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that the boys are anywhere close to Goku and Vegeta in terms of power level. It should also be noted that Vegeta was fighting Buu at the time, so he was at full power.

Nothing's changed in Super. The only difference is the structure of the tournament and the rules in place forces combatants to hold back so they don't get tired and knocked out.

I'm referring to scenes like this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
This panel doesn't feel it adds anything at all to the fight. It actually feels like it slows the pace of the fight.

No, absolutely not. That's a transitory panel showing the in-between stage of Hit moving from one attack motion to another. That's completely necessary and is ALL OVER Toriyama's original manga. It's one of the strengths of it since it isn't just dynamic panels of static attacks. We see how the characters move. That's what sets dragonball in its action scenes apart from American-style comics. Dragonball manga fights have to convey motion and aslightly decompressed style is how you do so.

[spoiler]Examples: https://i.imgur.com/j72oqYS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ji5oEt2.png

https://i.imgur.com/Nt3a3dA.png

https://i.imgur.com/wxDyBV3.png[/spoiler]

[Bergamo]

Chapter 34: 10+ fodder characters get one-shot

Chapter 35: Goku and Hit power up to full strength

Fans: Why aren't people getting one-shot? Why isn't Goku using full strength?

[Doctor.]

Odd how you want an even worst storyteller like Young Jijii. I will admit that his art is great but his panelling is far worse than Toyotaro's. I do agree about you on that last part relating to his line art.

That was in response to "At least get a better Toriyama imitator". Jijii's stories are terrible, but his art is much better than Toyotaro's (even if he still occasionally traces over panels).

I can't understand why people want these fights to start off with everyone at max power. If that was the case, these fights would be over in a matter of seconds. It would make this Battle Royale boring. I'm fine with the approach Goku and the others are taking by convserving their stamina for later. They don't know their opponents very well and are unaware of what they are capable of.

I will explain it again. Dragon Ball has always functioned in one way: massively stronger characters can knock out massively weaker characters in a flash, without exerting too much or any energy at all. The excuse that they're conserving their stamina doesn't work for this reason alone.

Now, does this mean I want Jiren to flex and instantly knock out every character in the tournament? Of course not. But it also means I don't want previously established rules in regards to how fights work in this franchise (and, considering how focused Dragon Ball is on fighting, those rules should be pretty important) to be thrown away. So, creative workarounds are necessary. Just one I keep mentioning is to have the strongest characters face each other from the start. We're only 5 minutes in and Goku/Hit and Jiren are already facing each-other; that's good. Do more of that instead of having something like, say, Gohan hold back in his base form against a bunch of weaklings and tiring himself out by dodging, blocking and punching opponents around his level of strength rather than just power-up to max and knock them out instantly.

You say you can tell these characters are weak by sensing their ki, but have you also forgotten characters are capable of lowering their ki to avoid being detected? They may also have unexpected transformations like Ganos of U4.

Which is fair enough, but those characters wouldn't have a chance to use their transformations if they get eliminated when they're suppressed. Which is why I find it stupid how everyone is suppressing themselves to ridiculous levels and making themselves susceptible to getting blind-sighted by someone stronger than them. Goku and Vegeta are fine, since their strongest forms are taxing on their bodies. But what excuse does someone like Toppo have to be fighting at SS2 or SS3 levels of strength? Jiren, even when suppressing himself, is still at a level of power where he can fight Goku and Hit, and yet nobody is saying he's burning himself out.

This is why I find the whole "they're conserving stamina" excuse incredibly ridiculous. Because we have proof, in this tournament, that stronger fighters don't need to conserve stamina. Jiren, in the first chapter, was knocking characters around left and right, now he fought Hit and Goku, and he's FINE. Frost was fighting characters more-or-less around his level, which is why he burned himself out so quickly. The strongest fighters don't need to exert themselves to swat away weaklings.

Stating that fighting in one of your lower transformations bring about "phony tension" makes no sense to me. He is being pushed to use more and more of his power. What exactly about that situation makes the tension seem "fake"? I don't think every character can simply do a one-shot KO like Jiren on someone slightly weaker than them. I think you may need to explain this more cause I am not understanding it very well.

It's fake tension because being wounded with multiple punches and risking himself to being thrown out-of-bounds by someone massively stronger than him is surely more taxing to his body than just going God or Blue and potentially eliminating one of the strongest fighters in the tournament right then and there.

It also a battle royale. You can't always fight who you want to fight. And Toyotaro made it realistic by having Jiren ignore Goku. Goku had to jump in at full power to get his attention.

This is wrong, though. Characters can fight exactly whoever they want, because the writer arbitrarily chooses who faces off against who. Goku was fighting against Dyspo and Toppo at the start of this chapter even though he was nowhere near them in the last one (which is surprising considering how well the previous chapters handled the transition between different match-ups). You just need to find a credible way to make two characters face-off and there you go.

[Marlowe89]

I think you're overstating the "one shot" philosophy a bit here.

Perhaps, and that's why I was careful to state that this supposedly "new" structure is debatable. Just going off of pure memory, I feel like there were plenty of instances of power conservation in the original manga as well.

Either way, as you've said yourself, it makes plenty of logical sense that a lot of the fighters would strategically choose to suppress their actual power to save energy in a 48-minute long tournament. That's good enough for me, and I didn't particularly mind it in the anime either.

[Bergamo]

Odd how you want an even worst storyteller like Young Jijii. I will admit that his art is great but his panelling is far worse than Toyotaro's. I do agree about you on that last part relating to his line art.

That was in response to "At least get a better Toriyama imitator". Jijii's stories are terrible, but his art is much better than Toyotaro's (even if he still occasionally traces over panels).

I can't understand why people want these fights to start off with everyone at max power. If that was the case, these fights would be over in a matter of seconds. It would make this Battle Royale boring. I'm fine with the approach Goku and the others are taking by convserving their stamina for later. They don't know their opponents very well and are unaware of what they are capable of.

I will explain it again. Dragon Ball has always functioned in one way: massively stronger characters can knock out massively weaker characters in a flash, without exerting too much or any energy at all. The excuse that they're conserving their stamina doesn't work for this reason alone.

Now, does this mean I want Jiren to flex and instantly knock out every character in the tournament? Of course not. But it also means I don't want previously established rules in regards to how fights work in this franchise (and, considering how focused Dragon Ball is on fighting, those rules should be pretty important) to be thrown away. So, creative workarounds are necessary. Just one I keep mentioning is to have the strongest characters face each other from the start. We're only 5 minutes in and Goku/Hit and Jiren are already facing each-other; that's good. Do more of that instead of having something like, say, Gohan hold back in his base form against a bunch of weaklings and tiring himself out by dodging, blocking and punching opponents around his level of strength rather than just power-up to max and knock them out instantly.

You say you can tell these characters are weak by sensing their ki, but have you also forgotten characters are capable of lowering their ki to avoid being detected? They may also have unexpected transformations like Ganos of U4.

Which is fair enough, but those characters wouldn't have a chance to use their transformations if they get eliminated when they're suppressed. Which is why I find it stupid how everyone is suppressing themselves to ridiculous levels and making themselves susceptible to getting blind-sighted by someone stronger than them. Goku and Vegeta are fine, since their strongest forms are taxing on their bodies. But what excuse does someone like Toppo have to be fighting at SS2 or SS3 levels of strength? Jiren, even when suppressing himself, is still at a level of power where he can fight Goku and Hit, and yet nobody is saying he's burning himself out.

This is why I find the whole "they're conserving stamina" excuse incredibly ridiculous. Because we have proof, in this tournament, that stronger fighters don't need to conserve stamina. Jiren, in the first chapter, was knocking characters around left and right, now he fought Hit and Goku, and he's FINE. Frost was fighting characters more-or-less around his level, which is why he burned himself out so quickly. The strongest fighters don't need to exert themselves to swat away weaklings.

Stating that fighting in one of your lower transformations bring about "phony tension" makes no sense to me. He is being pushed to use more and more of his power. What exactly about that situation makes the tension seem "fake"? I don't think every character can simply do a one-shot KO like Jiren on someone slightly weaker than them. I think you may need to explain this more cause I am not understanding it very well.

It's fake tension because being wounded with multiple punches and risking himself to being thrown out-of-bounds by someone massively stronger than him is surely more taxing to his body than just going God or Blue and potentially eliminating one of the strongest fighters in the tournament right then and there.

It also a battle royale. You can't always fight who you want to fight. And Toyotaro made it realistic by having Jiren ignore Goku. Goku had to jump in at full power to get his attention.

This is wrong, though. Characters can fight exactly whoever they want, because the writer arbitrarily chooses who faces off against who. Goku was fighting against Dyspo and Toppo at the start of this chapter even though he was nowhere near them in the last one (which is surprising considering how well the previous chapters handled the transition between different match-ups). You just need to find a credible way to make two characters face-off and there you go.

You do know many fodder characters were eliminated off-screen? For all we know a strong guy got eliminated because he was suppressing himself. Goku was about to be defeated by Toppo, but because he wasn't defeated in exactly one hit there's a problem. Not even Jiren eliminated Goku or Hit with one attack. Why are you so hung up over this one concept. Enjoy the arc and stop mulling over one thing that bothers you a little.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

More importantly, DB's MO has always been to have characters not fight at full strength. Testing and playing with each other before they go at it for real. It's called escalation. and that's been a part of the battle anime since forever. So I'm not entirely sure why it bothers you in this instance.

Because the premise doesn't give them room to do that. They're being timed, and everyone is fighting each other all at once. There shouldn't be any room to toy around of you'd get thrown off. Keeping up with logic of the setting is. The anime just cleared everyone aside for the convenience of episode plots. Its why you get the bad power scaling.

[Doctor.]

You do know many fodder characters were eliminated off-screen?

Yes, I appreciate the effort. But keep it consistent all the way through. Toyotaro can't have his cake and eat it too. He can't say "okay, all the irrelevant characters will drop out because they're weak" and say at the same time "but the relevant characters who are suppressing themselves to be weak will stay in."

For all we know a strong guy got eliminated because he was suppressing himself. Goku was about to be defeated by Toppo, but because he wasn't defeated in exactly one hit there's a problem. Not even Jiren eliminated Goku or Hit with one attack. Why are you so hung up over this one concept. Enjoy the arc and stop mulling over one thing that bothers you a little.

That's not likely. We know who the strongest people are.

It's not about not being defeated in one hit. Toppo was hammering Goku with a flurry of punches after saying "no mercy." You would think he'd try to knock Goku out of the stage at some point. It's distracting when you know that if the series was following the rules of its predecessor, there would be none of this fake tension and either Goku would get knocked out for foolishly suppressing himself for so long, or he'd go God/Blue instantly the moment he ran into Toppo.

I'm not mulling over one thing; people answer my posts and I've kept replying back because that's how discussions work. This isn't even one of the biggest issues I have with the arc - nor is it a big issue at all. It's a sign that Toyotaro is creatively bankrupt if anything else, but there are plenty of those throughout his entire manga.

[Omniboy]

I will explain it again. Dragon Ball has always functioned in one way: massively stronger characters can knock out massively weaker characters in a flash, without exerting too much or any energy at all. The excuse that they're conserving their stamina doesn't work for this reason alone.

Now, does this mean I want Jiren to flex and instantly knock out every character in the tournament? Of course not. But it also means I don't want previously established rules in regards to how fights work in this franchise (and, considering how focused Dragon Ball is on fighting, those rules should be pretty important) to be thrown away. So, creative workarounds are necessary. Just one I keep mentioning is to have the strongest characters face each other from the start. We're only 5 minutes in and Goku/Hit and Jiren are already facing each-other; that's good. Do more of that instead of having something like, say, Gohan hold back in his base form against a bunch of weaklings and tiring himself out by dodging, blocking and punching opponents around his level of strength rather than just power-up to max and knock them out instantly.

And Gohan was about to power up to defeat them, but then Frost intervened and took and majority of the fighters that Gohan and Piccolo were struggling with. Gohan recognized that their battle was going no where, even telling Piccolo that he felt like he had no choice, but to power-up. He just didn't get to powerup because he did not have to do so.

And Goku did eventaully power-up against Toppo, and Dyspo didn't he? Not just immediately.