"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[The gr]

No, it was mediocre. Nothing too exciting but nothing offensive either. A lot of the Zamasu arc chapters were worse like Kanassa mentioned. Though I don't think any of them ever get as offensively stupid as the anime. They're mostly just terribly boring. That's the manga's major crime; it does nothing to my emotions. At least the anime can get me angry.

I don't know the Future Trunks was stupid in the Manga but more duller in comparison to the anime.Is just baffles me that people are saying the Ft trunks saga is better than the Top.

Anyone can agree with me that Jiren and Frieza≥≥≥Zamas and Black.

[Exline]

And my question, you believe Toyotaro has done well with that? Matching characters up in an understandable manner?

I feel like he has done well of showing how fight A can transition into fight B in such a chaotic setting. For instance, pages like this one:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You'll find pages like this in the previous chapters (and even in this one). When Toyo wants to focus on a different fight, he'll put the fight you're currently watching on the background of the next panel, as he focuses on the new fight in the foreground. This allows for a fluid transition between the different fights and characters. You always know what each character is doing and where they stand in the arena relative to each other (though this always has the drawback of making the arena seem smaller than it should be). This is one thing he has been doing exceptionally well in this tournament. At least in comparison to the anime, that would just cut to a different, completely irrelevant fight abruptly and would never have consistency from one episode to the next (characters could be fighting entirely different people in the next episode than the people they were fighting in the episode you've finished watching).

I still think he could have utilized the fodder characters better in regards to match-ups that utilize their gimmicks in a creative way. This was a major flaw of the anime, and I was hoping it could be fixed here. Though here it can be excused considering the faster pace Toyotaro seems to be going for. Characters getting knocked out left, right and center works in this context. But, again, it only works if he keeps it consistent with all the characters; it stops working once weak characters start surviving encounters against stronger characters arbitrarily.

Can't see the image. Any other examples?

Also.. which fighters are considered fodder? And which are not?

I'm not a fan of how everyone below SSB is considered fodder. It makes this tournament boring if only person can compete with Goku. The approach they are taking with conserving their stamina for the sake of battles in lower terms of power makes it much more enjoyable. It wouldn't be fun if we saw in Jiren vs. Goku in the first chapter of this ToP. I don't understand why everyone wants to see that so soon. We have 80 characters in this tournament for a reason, and it's best to make use of them.

I haven't seen any "fake" tension at all in these chapters. The anime is the only one that does this. Scenarios such as Nink trying to take Goku down with him in the first episode of the tournament are perfect examples to exploit over this artificial tension. I have yet to see the manga do this.

Goku can't handle Toppo and Dyspo in SSJ2. He's learning the consequence of underestimating his opponent as he is being pummeled to the floor. This does it's job in explaining how underestimating your opponent could lead to you losing earlier than intended. Similar to what you've stated.

[TKA]

But see how in your first example, we don't see Vegeta charging behind Goku getting ready to attack? It's because we don't need to and it comes off as much more surprising.

We don't see Vegeta coming up behind Goku because it's meant to be a surprise attack, yes. What we DO see however, are the lines showing that Vegeta has changed position, and then we get TWO panels of Goku transitioning to a pose where Vegeta can hit him from. That's the combat flow.

It's the same logic here, but to a different end. Hit's attack isn't meant to be a surprise, but it IS transitioning into him landing an attack. Like I said, this kind of action sequencing is all over the dragonball manga.

What I cannot debate with you is if it works for YOU. That's up to your preference, but I don't think in a strictly mechanical sense that your idea would make the fight flow better. Without those in-between, transitory panels, reading this becomes more difficult as characters just move from attack to attack and position to position.

As an aside, the Super manga has A LOT of dialogue since it only has one chapter a month (less pages than a weekly manga per month) and has a lot of plot to cover. This is my only real flaw with it in general.

[Doctor.]

Can't see the image. Any other examples?

Sorry, didn't notice the link was broken. Here's the page again:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm not a fan of how everyone below SSB is considered fodder. It makes this tournament boring if only person can compete with Goku. The approach they are taking with conserving their stamina for the sake of battles in lower terms of power makes it much more enjoyable. It wouldn't be fun if we saw in Jiren vs. Goku in the first chapter of this ToP. I don't understand why everyone wants to see that so soon. We have 80 characters in this tournament for a reason, and it's best to make use of them.

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

But that's not the way Toyotaro is doing things. What he's doing is getting rid of the weaker characters first and leaving only the strong, relevant characters since he thinks there's no way to properly utilize 80 characters in a battle royale format with a monthly manga. Which isn't a necessarily wrong way of doing things, but, again, he must be consistent with it; the moment he starts having stupid match-ups where characters that should have been eliminated arbitrarily survive, that's where things go south.

I haven't seen any "fake" tension at all in these chapters. The anime is the only one that does this. Scenarios such as Nink trying to take Goku down with him in the first episode of the tournament are perfect examples to exploit over this artificial tension. I have yet to see the manga do this.

Goku can't handle Toppo and Dyspo in SSJ2. He's learning the consequence of underestimating his opponent as he is being pummeled to the floor. This does it's job in explaining how underestimating your opponent could lead to you losing earlier than intended. Similar to what you've stated.

Scenarios such as SS2 Goku being pummeled by Toppo is a perfect example of fake tension. Goku could have (and should have) gone SSB from the start. He knows how strong Toppo is (so he isn't trying to gauge his strength) and he knows he'll either a) risk elimination or b) suffer damage if he stays in a weaker form. So the scene of Toppo and Dyspo pummeling SS2 Goku is a classic example of fake tension and something that wouldn't be too far outside of the anime's way of doing things.

Goku has learned this "don't underestimate your opponent" lesson over 50 times in Super alone. This is a fabricated problem he never had in the original series.

[Bergamo]

Can't see the image. Any other examples?

Sorry, didn't notice the link was broken. Here's the page again:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm not a fan of how everyone below SSB is considered fodder. It makes this tournament boring if only person can compete with Goku. The approach they are taking with conserving their stamina for the sake of battles in lower terms of power makes it much more enjoyable. It wouldn't be fun if we saw in Jiren vs. Goku in the first chapter of this ToP. I don't understand why everyone wants to see that so soon. We have 80 characters in this tournament for a reason, and it's best to make use of them.

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

But that's not the way Toyotaro is doing things. What he's doing is getting rid of the weaker characters first and leaving only the strong, relevant characters since he thinks there's no way to properly utilize 80 characters in a battle royale format with a monthly manga. Which isn't a necessarily wrong way of doing things, but, again, he must be consistent with it; the moment he starts having stupid match-ups where characters that should have been eliminated arbitrarily survive, that's where things go south.

I haven't seen any "fake" tension at all in these chapters. The anime is the only one that does this. Scenarios such as Nink trying to take Goku down with him in the first episode of the tournament are perfect examples to exploit over this artificial tension. I have yet to see the manga do this.

Goku can't handle Toppo and Dyspo in SSJ2. He's learning the consequence of underestimating his opponent as he is being pummeled to the floor. This does it's job in explaining how underestimating your opponent could lead to you losing earlier than intended. Similar to what you've stated.

Scenarios such as SS2 Goku being pummeled by Toppo is a perfect example of fake tension. Goku could have (and should have) gone SSB from the start. He knows how strong Toppo is (so he isn't trying to gauge his strength) and he knows he'll either a) risk elimination or b) suffer damage if he stays in a weaker form. So the scene of Toppo and Dyspo pummeling SS2 Goku is a classic example of fake tension and something that wouldn't be too far outside of the anime's way of doing things.

Goku has learned this "don't underestimate your opponent" lesson over 50 times in Super alone. This is a fabricated problem he never had in the original series.

Goku vs Toppo wasn't supposed to be tense because Goku was going to be eliminated. We know that he can handle Toppo. The tension was supposed to come from Goku wearing himself out against Toppo and Dyspo and never getting to fight Jiren. Whether Goku gets beat up in SS2 or Transforms into SSB, he's going to wear himself out. It's only once he sees Hit that he finally decides to stop wasting his time and challenge Jiren head on. Also, you've said previously that strong characters should be wiped out easily, but now you're saying it's bad when Toyotaro gets rid of the fodder?

[Doctor.]

Also, you've said previously that strong characters should be wiped out easily, but now you're saying it's bad when Toyotaro gets rid of the fodder?

No, you keep misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I'm saying that Dragon Ball has rules in regards to its combat. And those rules dictate that all the fodder should be knocked out instantly by the strongest characters. So creative workarounds are necessary if you want an interesting story less you throw away all consistency with Super's predecessor out of the window. One of those workarounds is to have the strongest characters keep each other occupied from the start, another one is make every character fight opponents relative to their strength level. I can't get any clearer than this. Toyotaro has been mostly following this philosophy, with a few stupid exceptions like Gohan's fight and Goku's fight this chapter, which is why the entire tournament breaks down if he's gonna get arbitrary with how the combat mechanics work.

[Kanassa]

Nah, I don't think anything can get as bad as most of the Zamasu Arc chapters

What about chapter 13 or those rushed chapter of Bog.

Those chapters were fine considering the time and context surrounding them, and I doubt the TOP chapters will ever get that bad because unlike the Zamasu stuff, this doesn't require that much storytelling due to the premise. Though, it still brings up Toyo's lack of ability to give much character or connection.

[Bergamo]

Also, you've said previously that strong characters should be wiped out easily, but now you're saying it's bad when Toyotaro gets rid of the fodder?

No, you keep misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I'm saying that Dragon Ball has rules in regards to its combat. And those rules dictate that all the fodder should be knocked out instantly by the strongest characters. So creative workarounds are necessary less you throw away all consistency with Super's predecessor out of the window. One of those workarounds is to have the strongest characters keep each other occupied from the start, another one is make every character fight opponents relative to their strength level. I can't get any clearer than this. Toyotaro has been mostly following this philosophy, with a few stupid exceptions like Gohan's fight and Goku's fight this chapter, which is why the entire tournament breaks down if he's gonna get arbitrary with how the combat mechanics work.

I'm just going to say it.

Goku's fight with Toppo wasn't supposed to be as tense as you think.

There are different levels of tension. Just because Goku isn't in danger of being eliminated doesn't mean him losing stamina isn't important. Wether Goku transforms or stays SS2, he is going to lose energy.

[Doctor.]

I'm just going to say it.

Goku's fight with Toppo wasn't supposed to be as tense as you think.

There are different levels of tension. Just because Goku isn't in danger of being eliminated doesn't mean him losing stamina isn't important. Wether Goku transforms or stays SS2, he is going to lose energy.

Whether you think it's tense or not, it doesn't really matter. What matters is how the combat is being portrayed and whether it's consistent with what came before. And it's pretty stupid of Goku to be holding back his power in that position just as it is equally stupid of Toppo for not knocking Goku out of the ring. That's what I'm pointing out.

[Bergamo]

I'm just going to say it.

Goku's fight with Toppo wasn't supposed to be as tense as you think.

There are different levels of tension. Just because Goku isn't in danger of being eliminated doesn't mean him losing stamina isn't important. Wether Goku transforms or stays SS2, he is going to lose energy.

Whether you think it's tense or not, it doesn't really matter. What matters is how the combat is being portrayed and whether it's consistent with what came before. And it's pretty stupid of Goku to be holding back his power in that position just as it is equally stupid of Toppo for not knocking Goku out of the ring. That's what I'm pointing out.

It's equally stupid to use a form that can't be used repeatedly and breaks your body after 20 minutes.

[Doctor.]

I'm just going to say it.

Goku's fight with Toppo wasn't supposed to be as tense as you think.

There are different levels of tension. Just because Goku isn't in danger of being eliminated doesn't mean him losing stamina isn't important. Wether Goku transforms or stays SS2, he is going to lose energy.

Whether you think it's tense or not, it doesn't really matter. What matters is how the combat is being portrayed and whether it's consistent with what came before. And it's pretty stupid of Goku to be holding back his power in that position just as it is equally stupid of Toppo for not knocking Goku out of the ring. That's what I'm pointing out.

It's equally stupid to use a form that can't be used repeatedly and breaks your body after 20 minutes.

He has God. But you keep picking on the wrong problem. I said before that Goku holding back is relatively fine. The biggest problem is Toppo not knocking Goku out. That's not how the original series worked, and it isn't how the rest of this tournament has worked either. And that's why I keep saying the tournament breaks down if Toyotaro is gonna start being inconsistent with how the fights work.

[Bergamo]

Whether you think it's tense or not, it doesn't really matter. What matters is how the combat is being portrayed and whether it's consistent with what came before. And it's pretty stupid of Goku to be holding back his power in that position just as it is equally stupid of Toppo for not knocking Goku out of the ring. That's what I'm pointing out.

It's equally stupid to use a form that can't be used repeatedly and breaks your body after 20 minutes.

He has God. But you keep picking on the wrong problem. I said before that Goku holding back is fine. The biggest problem is Toppo not knocking Goku out. That's now how the original series worked, and it isn't how the rest of this tournament has worked either. And that's why I keep saying the tournament breaks down if Toyotaro is gonna start being inconsistent with how the fights work.

Here's your options

A) Goku gets one-shot
B) Goku wastes his stamina after 15 minutes
C) Goku coincidentally never runs into a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament
D) A well-written story

If this conflicts with the original Dragonball then it is Toriyama's fault for making a concept that is literally always bad.

[Doctor.]

Here's your options

A) Goku gets one-shot
B) Goku wastes his stamina after 15 minutes
C) Goku coincidentally never runs into a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament
D) A well-written story

If this conflicts with the original Dragonball then it is Toriyama's fault for making a concept that is literally always bad.

Here's your workarounds:

A) Goku doesn't need to be fighting Toppo, since Toyotaro's the one who decides who's fighting who;
B) Goku fights Toppo and possibly eliminates one of the strongest fighters after 15 minutes making that stamina waste have a point;
C) Goku is coincidentally occupied with a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament while everyone else is coincidentally occupied with opponents at their strength levels;

Don't pull the "let's ignore consistency for the sake of writing a good story" cop-out. You can have both. Toriyama's manga proves it. There was no reason for Goku to be fighting Toppo. If the scene had no purpose besides fake tension and unimaginative padding, then why was it necessary?

Creativity is the bare minimum someone needs in order to write a good story. And if Toyotaro can't manage that, then it's not my problem.

[Exline]

I'm not a fan of how everyone below SSB is considered fodder. It makes this tournament boring if only person can compete with Goku. The approach they are taking with conserving their stamina for the sake of battles in lower terms of power makes it much more enjoyable. It wouldn't be fun if we saw in Jiren vs. Goku in the first chapter of this ToP. I don't understand why everyone wants to see that so soon. We have 80 characters in this tournament for a reason, and it's best to make use of them.

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

But that's not the way Toyotaro is doing things. What he's doing is getting rid of the weaker characters first and leaving only the strong, relevant characters since he thinks there's no way to properly utilize 80 characters in a battle royale format with a monthly manga. Which isn't a necessarily wrong way of doing things, but, again, he must be consistent with it; the moment he starts having stupid match-ups where characters that should have been eliminated arbitrarily survive, that's where things go south.

I'm fine with Toyotaro's eliminations as long as he keeps it the way he did in Chapters 33 and 34, barring the off-screen eliminations. I find eliminations like those unacceptable. We should get to see how these fighters are defeated. Not every fighter needs to be imposing, but if you have 80 characters, there's so many things you can do with them. Multi-eliminations are alright as well. Jiren could wipe a bunch of them off the stage with a single blow due to a fit of rage. I'd be fine with that because at least their being used well to serve the narrative. Eliminating them off-screen upsets me because it makes them even more irrelevant than they already were.

I haven't seen any "fake" tension at all in these chapters. The anime is the only one that does this. Scenarios such as Nink trying to take Goku down with him in the first episode of the tournament are perfect examples to exploit over this artificial tension. I have yet to see the manga do this.

Goku can't handle Toppo and Dyspo in SSJ2. He's learning the consequence of underestimating his opponent as he is being pummeled to the floor. This does it's job in explaining how underestimating your opponent could lead to you losing earlier than intended. Similar to what you've stated.

Scenarios such as SS2 Goku being pummeled by Toppo is a perfect example of fake tension. Goku could have (and should have) gone SSB from the start. He knows how strong Toppo is (so he isn't trying to gauge his strength) and he knows he'll either a) risk elimination or b) suffer damage if he stays in a weaker form. So the scene of Toppo and Dyspo pummeling SS2 Goku is a classic example of fake tension and something that wouldn't be too far outside of the anime's way of doing things.

Goku has learned this "don't underestimate your opponent" lesson over 50 times in Super alone. This is a fabricated problem he never had in the original series.

Maybe its a problem he's developed now that he's gotten so powerful. Goku is very confident of himself as a martial artist and he may have developed this after long periods of peace in between these arcs. Only very few fighters can match up to him. He lowers himself to lower levels of SSJ to have a fairer fight against his enemy.

Oh wait, didn't he do that to Vegeta?

And I sort of agree with you on your point about Goku knowing Toppo's strength already. Either way, I see it more of a strategy on Goku's part to conserve his stamina for later fights. The tournament has just started. I understand that if he went blue from the get go, he could eliminate multiple fighters quickly, but remember when Vegeta did that to Cabba in the U6 Arc?

A single punch in Blue form made Vegeta much weaker than Hit. Imagine what would happen if Goku one-shots multiple fighters.. It would definitely be too much strain on his stamina.

This strategy makes sense when you factor in the massive ki output required to activate and maintain Blue. It's probably even worse when factoring in CSSB.

But see how in your first example, we don't see Vegeta charging behind Goku getting ready to attack? It's because we don't need to and it comes off as much more surprising.

We don't see Vegeta coming up behind Goku because it's meant to be a surprise attack, yes. What we DO see however, are the lines showing that Vegeta has changed position, and then we get TWO panels of Goku transitioning to a pose where Vegeta can hit him from. That's the combat flow.

It's the same logic here, but to a different end. Hit's attack isn't meant to be a surprise, but it IS transitioning into him landing an attack. Like I said, this kind of action sequencing is all over the dragonball manga.

What I cannot debate with you is if it works for YOU. That's up to your preference, but I don't think in a strictly mechanical sense that your idea would make the fight flow better. Without those in-between, transitory panels, reading this becomes more difficult as characters just move from attack to attack and position to position.

As an aside, the Super manga has A LOT of dialogue since it only has one chapter a month (less pages than a weekly manga per month) and has a lot of plot to cover. This is my only real flaw with it in general.

Don't get me wrong those panels I do enjoy. I'm probably just a bit annoyed by how small they are. His pages are full of so many panels that it makes bloated and confusing at times like Vegeta_Sama was stating.

But the way that panel in particular looked. I just felt that it was extremely unnecessary. I think from a different angle, we could have seen Hit where it was not needed. I would do another example, but I've got hw to do. No time to waste haha.

I understand that transitory panels are crucial in demonstrating the movements a character makes, but I just felt that panel made the following panel with the actual kick look slower. Transitory panels work better in many moments in the chapter, but that particular moment didn't sit well with me. The kick in the following panel did not look powerful at all to need this either. I'm probably just not a fan of the choreography in that particular panel and page overall. I'm not too bothered by it, was just using it as an example. A mere nitpick.

Nah, I don't think anything can get as bad as most of the Zamasu Arc chapters

What about chapter 13 or those rushed chapter of Bog.

Those chapters were fine considering the time and context surrounding them, and I doubt the TOP chapters will ever get that bad because unlike the Zamasu stuff, this doesn't require that much storytelling due to the premise. Though, it still brings up Toyo's lack of ability to give much character or connection.

Ok, I've been refraining from using language like this, but this right here is a fat load of bullcrap.

How do you claim Toyotaro lacks the ability to properly use these characters when this chapter is chock-full of character development between Goku, Hit, and Jiren..?

Jiren gains respect for Goku in this chapter, Goku and Hit build a friendly rivalry of sorts, and Goku remains in character by giving up the fight so he can win his own way instead of beating Jiren with someone beside him.

How do you prefer this chapter should've went down to bring forth this missing character/connection you don't find thats already in this chapter?

[Bergamo]

Here's your options

A) Goku gets one-shot
B) Goku wastes his stamina after 15 minutes
C) Goku coincidentally never runs into a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament
D) A well-written story

If this conflicts with the original Dragonball then it is Toriyama's fault for making a concept that is literally always bad.

Here's your workarounds:

A) Goku doesn't need to be fighting Toppo;
B) Goku fights Toppo and possibly eliminates one of the strongest fighters after 15 minutes;
C) Goku is coincidentally occupied with a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament while everyone else is coincidentally occupied with opponents at their strength levels;

Don't pull the "let's ignore consistency for the sake of writing a good story" cop-out. You can have both. Toriyama's manga proves it. There was no reason for Goku to be fighting Toppo. If the scene had no purpose besides fake tension and unimaginative padding, then why was it necessary?

Creativity is the bare minimum someone needs in order to write a good story. And if Toyotaro can't manage that, then it's not my problem.

Toriyama's manga is full of holes.

Example:Porunga wasn't able to ressurect multiple people at once, but in exchange he can grant three wishes. In the Buu Saga Porunga has 3 wishes and can revive multiple people at once, because it was necessary for the plot.

Example: Cell can regenerate his head because Toriyama wanted to build suspense.

I could go on.

[Doctor.]

Toriyama's manga is full of holes.

Example:Porunga wasn't able to ressurect multiple people at once, but in exchange he can grant three wishes. In the Buu Saga Porunga has 3 wishes and can revive multiple people at once, because it was necessary for the plot.

Example: Cell can regenerate his head because Toriyama wanted to build suspense.

I could go on.

What does that have anything to do with what we were talking about? Toriyama's manga has holes, yes (though these in particular had little to do with our discussion), how does that excuse Toyotaro's mistakes?

[Exline]

Here's your options

A) Goku gets one-shot
B) Goku wastes his stamina after 15 minutes
C) Goku coincidentally never runs into a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament
D) A well-written story

If this conflicts with the original Dragonball then it is Toriyama's fault for making a concept that is literally always bad.

Here's your workarounds:

A) Goku doesn't need to be fighting Toppo;
B) Goku fights Toppo and possibly eliminates one of the strongest fighters after 15 minutes;
C) Goku is coincidentally occupied with a strong opponent for the first half of the tournament while everyone else is coincidentally occupied with opponents at their strength levels;

Don't pull the "let's ignore consistency for the sake of writing a good story" cop-out. You can have both. Toriyama's manga proves it. There was no reason for Goku to be fighting Toppo. If the scene had no purpose besides fake tension and unimaginative padding, then why was it necessary?

Creativity is the bare minimum someone needs in order to write a good story. And if Toyotaro can't manage that, then it's not my problem.

Toriyama's manga is full of holes.

Example:Porunga wasn't able to ressurect multiple people at once, but in exchange he can grant three wishes. In the Buu Saga Porunga has 3 wishes and can revive multiple people at once, because it was necessary for the plot.

Example: Cell can regenerate his head because Toriyama wanted to build suspense.

I could go on.

Doesn't mean they're good.

Sure, Cell regenerating with no brain was interesting and suspenseful.. but it's a plot-hole nonetheless. Plot-holes should be avoided not encouraged.

[Marlowe89]

I just don't see how it's very thrilling to see a fight where a character is using his weaker forms (and, thus, any established tension can shatter the moment he transforms) instead of a legitimate struggle.

As I see it, that scene was less about establishing tension (which I think is evident in how short and overall unimportant to the chapter it was) and more about highlighting Goku's characterization shown through the opposing teamwork between Dyspo and Toppo. It's interesting because of the conflict it presents to Goku -- he attempts to test the waters of his stamina consumption by holding out in his Super Saiyan 2 form for as long as he can against these guys, to the point that Dyspo openly mocks him for not taking them seriously, ultimately ditching that plan altogether and going all-out because of his sheer enthusiasm at fighting Jiren. It's a scene that conveys just how important the notion of that battle is to Goku specifically. I believe this is also where Toyotaro's use of Goku's various Super Saiyan forms really shines, because he's able to give them equal representation in a way that doesn't conflict with the narrative and without overusing any particular form.

I don't think Toyotaro intends for every scene in the tournament to be super suspenseful, especially because some of them are going to prioritize other messages and plot points. I'm completely fine with that. In terms of tension in general, I think he's done a fine job at conveying that both through the match against Jiren and the previous chapter.

[Bergamo]

Toriyama's manga is full of holes.

Example:Porunga wasn't able to ressurect multiple people at once, but in exchange he can grant three wishes. In the Buu Saga Porunga has 3 wishes and can revive multiple people at once, because it was necessary for the plot.

Example: Cell can regenerate his head because Toriyama wanted to build suspense.

I could go on.

What does that have anything to do with what we were talking about? Toriyama's manga has holes, yes (though these in particular had little to do with our discussion), how does that excuse Toyotaro's mistakes?

I'm saying Toriyama made a concept, and to properly execute it, the writer had to bend the rules a little bit. This is a staple of Dragonball. This is a mild contrivance by storytelling standards, and a non-existent one by Dragonball standards.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

Thats my issue with Super. As it seems like the charactesr just forget they can sense or scout out their opponents mentally, before engaging. They should have all picked their own opponents as said to their strength level and fought them. The movies seem to do this better by paring worthy henchmen to the Z cast, rather than creating 60 disposable characters. I honestly think in retrospect the character teams were too big. I would have set it to 5 characters per universe as representatives and scale them all alike U7. Though DB not having a real class system for the scaling to me is why you have just messy ambiguity or characters with the lamest designs being the giveaway weaklings. Have 1 UI level, 1 God, 1 SS3, 1 Android/SS1, 1 Superhuman per universe and they should have ranked characters clearer. Or just have threat classes like in OPM. The ambiguity to this tournament is why it comes off as a mess or that only Jiren really matters. I didn't like that the anime just had the fodder characters have a single gimmick, but in order to show it off they must have their strength equal to characters that show more competence to them in battle, just for it. Like the infamous Sniper episode.