"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TKA]

I definitely think Toyotaro gets way too much hate, but I think comparing him to Toriyama is totally fair. He's the one writing and drawing an official manga sequel. It's only natural we end up comparing his work to Toriyama's.

You could also compare a 12 year old at a science fair to Nikola Tesla. It's a fair comparison, since they're both doing science, but it's a silly comparison because of how obvious the massive skill and knowledge difference is.

It cannot be overstated that Toriyama is a fucking genius. He downplays his ability a lot, but this is a man who made 2 massively popular series (Dr. Slump and DB), is a huge part of one of the most popular video game franchises ever (Dragonquest) and has changed the manga industry AND the way stories are told there for a whole generation.

Toyotaro is just some guy, comparatively. It's a "fair" comparison but a silly one for how obvious the difference between them is.

[OhHiRenan]

Toyotaro’s not just some guy and that’s 12 year old comparison is just silly. Toyo’s handling an official sequel to Dragon Ball. It’s fair to compare his work to Toriyama’s. One’s a master of his craft, one’s not, but both worked on the same series.

[TKA]

Toyotaro’s not just some guy and that’s 12 year old comparison is just silly. Toyo’s handling an official sequel to Dragon Ball. It’s fair to compare his work to Toriyama’s. One’s a master of his craft, one’s not, but both worked on the same series.

I don't recall saying the comparison is flawed.

I said the comparison is silly because it's so goddamn obvious that Toriyama is better. Toriyama is better than MOST mangaka. He's one of the best who have ever lived.

[Marlowe89]

However, I'm not completely convinced that he can outdo the better staff on the anime in their respective departments

In terms of scripting, I'm actually inclined to disagree with that. Atsuhiro Tomioka and Yoshitaka Toshio are personally my favorite writers for the show -- I think their best is roughly on par with Toyotaro's best, while their occasional worst can be particularly egregious and arguably lower than any low Toyotaro has ever stooped to.

That's not to knock either of them because I think they're exceptionally talented and would love to see them work on the franchise in the future, but in regards to understanding the overall feel of Dragon Ball, the only person better than Toyotaro at that is Toriyama himself. I think his induction as the "successor" was clearly the result of a careful, informed decision.

[JazzMazz]

However, I'm not completely convinced that he can outdo the better staff on the anime in their respective departments

In terms of scripting, I'm actually inclined to disagree with that. Atsuhiro Tomioka and Yoshitaka Toshio are personally my favorite writers for the show -- I think their best is roughly on par with Toyotaro's best, while their occasional worst can be particularly egregious and arguably lower than any low Toyotaro has ever stooped to.

That's not to knock either of them because I think they're exceptionally talented and would love to see them work on the franchise in the future, but in regards to understanding the overall feel of Dragon Ball, the only person better than Toyotaro at that is Toriyama himself. I think his induction as the "successor" was clearly the result of a careful, informed decision.

True, but I also think its worth considering that the execution of a script writers script for an episode depends heavily on the talent of the respective storyboard artists and directors, whose job it is to adapt the script into a full episode(meaning they have some creative liberties with the script). For me, that's the reason why something like 111 was so terribly boring. It had the one of the weakest directors and story boarders on the show, delivering one of there worst contributions, which in turn ruined any potential the script for the episode had to be good.

Same I would say holds true for something like 115 of Super. The script seemed perfectly fine, and the storyboard was also fine, however, the direction didn't help the episode come together, and it ended up being really dull because of that.

[Meshack]

King Ryu and Tomioka are fantastic writers for Super

[TKA]

King Ryu and Tomioka are fantastic writers for Super

Tomioka is great and I'm really sad that he was writing for Super. That anime is so beneath his talent as a writer when you look at what he's done with other franchises.

[OLKv3]

Hope the wait for leaks this month isn't as long as it was last month

[HeroR]

Writing-wise for me personally, Toyo has nothing to match the best in the anime, especially Tomioka, King Ryu, and Toshi. I will even add the writer of 109, 114, and 118 who really came into their own after the lackluster 106.

Toyo to me is at his best, mediocre. I find the writing of Dragon Ball Multiverse better in more ways and I don’t personally like the guy. I will give Toyo credit that his lows are not as bad as the lows of the anime.

[batistabus]

Post-Dragon Ball, the only anime pieces that stand out to me writing-wise are the JSAT special, Battle of Gods (film), Resurrection F (film), and DBS Episode 131. Super's finale just happens to be written by Tomioka, so I guess he's my favorite by default. Was never impressed with anything King Ryu produced. It's not that everything else was completely horrible, but nothing else warrants a re-watch from me aside from some cool animation cuts.

Even if you ignore GT, what we got from the Super anime is blatant proof that Toei's writers cannot be trusted to write Dragon Ball stories adequately with so much freedom. There's no consistency, the characters feel "off" too often, and the sensibilities are rarely spot-on. They get that Dragon Ball has action, drama, and comedy, but most writers lack a thorough understanding of what makes the series so unique and interesting. I don't really blame them...it's hard for any writer to authentically emulate Toriyama's style. Regardless of that, Super's production schedule and lack of cohesion behind the scenes weren't doing anybody any favors. Hopefully they let Toyotaro get ahead in the near future and adapt his work instead. That way, if they decide to pad the story in various ways, at least the core will be solid (like with the DB and DBZ animes).

[Marlowe89]

I've never been crazy about King Ryu either. I think he's good at handling the characters during slice-of-life intermissions, but his actual writing for more action-oriented pieces can be all over the place (some of them outright horrible, like 100) and he's certainly no stranger to throwing the show's power scaling completely out the window in favor of forced drama. He'd probably make a nice addition to the "filler" sequences for lack of a better term, but I definitely don't think he's quite well-rounded enough to be capable of making higher scripting decisions if the anime returns. I wouldn't want him anywhere near a directorial role, for example.

Yoshifumi Fukushima and Hiroshi Yamaguchi are even worse.

[Dragono]

Writing-wise for me personally, Toyo has nothing to match the best in the anime, especially Tomioka, King Ryu, and Toshi. I will even add the writer of 109, 114, and 118 who really came into their own after the lackluster 106.

Toyo to me is at his best, mediocre. I find the writing of Dragon Ball Multiverse better in more ways and I don’t personally like the guy. I will give Toyo credit that his lows are not as bad as the lows of the anime.

Thats the basic truth of it. Toyo's high don't come close to the Anime's highs but because his lows don't come near the anime, some people prefer the manga over it.



Me personally, I think Toyotaro just isn't ready for this professional level of writing, Toriyama was by far not the best writer yet even though he had to deal with an editorial team that were constantly changing his ideas and was doing this weekly while making the story up as he went along, Toyo has yet to come close to his highs.


And by Toriyama's own words, he was lazy back then. I'm not saying Toriyama didn't pick the right man because I honestly don't even know who was his competition. Toyo probably was the best. I just feel like Tori went the lazy way with this and pick the guy who was quick but also was a fan of his work who knew it better than he did.

[Bergamo]

Writing-wise for me personally, Toyo has nothing to match the best in the anime, especially Tomioka, King Ryu, and Toshi. I will even add the writer of 109, 114, and 118 who really came into their own after the lackluster 106.

Toyo to me is at his best, mediocre. I find the writing of Dragon Ball Multiverse better in more ways and I don’t personally like the guy. I will give Toyo credit that his lows are not as bad as the lows of the anime.

Thats the basic truth of it. Toyo's high don't come close to the Anime's highs but because his lows don't come near the anime, some people prefer the manga over it.



Me personally, I think Toyotaro just isn't ready for this professional level of writing, Toriyama was by far not the best writer yet even though he had to deal with an editorial team that were constantly changing his ideas and was doing this weekly while making the story up as he went along, Toyo has yet to come close to his highs.


And by Toriyama's own words, he was lazy back then. I'm not saying Toriyama didn't pick the right man because I honestly don't even know who was his competition. Toyo probably was the best. I just feel like Tori went the lazy way with this and pick the guy who was quick but also was a fan of his work who knew it better than he did.

It's a bit rude to say that Toyotarou is incapable of writing at a professional level, isn't it? Toyotarou's manga isn't perfect, but it's a legitimate product. I can't understand how you could see 2 adaptations of the same story, each with their highs and lows, and then say that Toyotarou is somehow especially unfit as a writer.

[Dragono]

Writing-wise for me personally, Toyo has nothing to match the best in the anime, especially Tomioka, King Ryu, and Toshi. I will even add the writer of 109, 114, and 118 who really came into their own after the lackluster 106.

Toyo to me is at his best, mediocre. I find the writing of Dragon Ball Multiverse better in more ways and I don’t personally like the guy. I will give Toyo credit that his lows are not as bad as the lows of the anime.

Thats the basic truth of it. Toyo's high don't come close to the Anime's highs but because his lows don't come near the anime, some people prefer the manga over it.



Me personally, I think Toyotaro just isn't ready for this professional level of writing, Toriyama was by far not the best writer yet even though he had to deal with an editorial team that were constantly changing his ideas and was doing this weekly while making the story up as he went along, Toyo has yet to come close to his highs.


And by Toriyama's own words, he was lazy back then. I'm not saying Toriyama didn't pick the right man because I honestly don't even know who was his competition. Toyo probably was the best. I just feel like Tori went the lazy way with this and pick the guy who was quick but also was a fan of his work who knew it better than he did.

It's a bit rude to say that Toyotarou is incapable of writing at a professional level, isn't it? Toyotarou's manga isn't perfect, but it's a legitimate product. I can't understand how you could see 2 adaptations of the same story, each with their highs and lows, and then say that Toyotarou is somehow especially unfit as a writer.

You know what I meant. There are plenty of fans of dragon ball that have been screaming at Super saying they can do better, but Toyotaro proves that most of them can't even if they have the skill. Its because of fandom mentality. Toyo goes out of his way to explore minor plotholes and focus on characters he enjoys but don't work. People may not have liked it but no one here can say it didn't make sense for Goku to have the screentime he had in the anime's version, he started it, he was the only one that came for the fun of it and he had the strength to play around. But Trunks had less focus in his own arc than his father, even though they were in his timeline.



Toriyama rarely did that and when he did, it created Minus and Resurrection F, which are NOT fan favorites for a reason. This is why many say fanfic writers suck even when they write stories very competently. They don't know how to separate what the fandom wants and what the story needs.

[TKA]

I just feel like Tori went the lazy way with this and pick the guy who was quick but also was a fan of his work who knew it better than he did.

Your feelings mean nothing in this case. There've been countless people working on Dragonball over the years that Toriyama has known and interacted with. Of all these people, he chose Toyotaro to be his successor. To deny Toyotaro's merit after Toriyama chose him over the myriad of other people involved in the franchise—well that's just silly.

[batistabus]

There are plenty of fans of dragon ball that have been screaming at Super saying they can do better, but Toyotaro proves that most of them can't even if they have the skill. Its because of fandom mentality. Toyo goes out of his way to explore minor plotholes and focus on characters he enjoys but don't work. People may not have liked it but no one here can say it didn't make sense for Goku to have the screentime he had in the anime's version, he started it, he was the only one that came for the fun of it and he had the strength to play around. But Trunks had less focus in his own arc than his father, even though they were in his timeline.

But this is exactly the opposite of what Toyotaro does. He treats the characters with a level of authenticity and respect that the anime does not. You use Trunks as your example, but Trunks is the most blatant counter example. The purposeless, beefed up Trunks we got in the anime is the result of a combination of fanboyism and toy advertisement. It says that a character can't be important unless they yell loudly and get super muscular. And let's not forget how he learned and mastered the Mafuba in a minute by watching a video. The manga version of Trunks carried his weight in an actual creative way without contradicting the entire point of the arc.

[Hawk9211]

The leaks have started.

[The gr]

The leaks have started.

Mind posting them because I'm not sure the leaks would be coming out this early.

[HeroR]

Thats the basic truth of it. Toyo's high don't come close to the Anime's highs but because his lows don't come near the anime, some people prefer the manga over it.



Me personally, I think Toyotaro just isn't ready for this professional level of writing, Toriyama was by far not the best writer yet even though he had to deal with an editorial team that were constantly changing his ideas and was doing this weekly while making the story up as he went along, Toyo has yet to come close to his highs.


And by Toriyama's own words, he was lazy back then. I'm not saying Toriyama didn't pick the right man because I honestly don't even know who was his competition. Toyo probably was the best. I just feel like Tori went the lazy way with this and pick the guy who was quick but also was a fan of his work who knew it better than he did.

I wouldn't got as far as to say his lows don't come near the anime lows. His lows are just different. The anime at its worse makes little sense and runs on fridge logic, but I have personally found even the worst of Super still fun to watch even if it is 'so bad it's good'. The manga worst to me is just plain boring like this last chapter, which to me is a worst sin.

I honestly don't feel Toyo is the best. Not as an artist and not as a writer, and I will continue to feel that they could have chosen someone better.

Also, re-reading what I wrote yesterday, I want to clear something up. When I said 'I don't personally like the guy' I was talking about the person who writes Dragon Ball Multiverse, not Toyo. For all my problems with Toyo as a writer and a artist, he seemed like a humble and nice person who does try to improve himself and have real love the series.

You know what I meant. There are plenty of fans of dragon ball that have been screaming at Super saying they can do better, but Toyotaro proves that most of them can't even if they have the skill. Its because of fandom mentality. Toyo goes out of his way to explore minor plotholes and focus on characters he enjoys but don't work. People may not have liked it but no one here can say it didn't make sense for Goku to have the screentime he had in the anime's version, he started it, he was the only one that came for the fun of it and he had the strength to play around. But Trunks had less focus in his own arc than his father, even though they were in his timeline.



Toriyama rarely did that and when he did, it created Minus and Resurrection F, which are NOT fan favorites for a reason. This is why many say fanfic writers suck even when they write stories very competently. They don't know how to separate what the fandom wants and what the story needs.

Months ago, I wrote that Toyo writes like a fanfic author and went into detail how I don't mean the old 'fanfiction sucks'. He had many habits and quirks seen in many fanfiction authors (yes, I include myself in this too), especially the need to explain everything to the point that characters stopped being characters and become Mr. Explain. Which wouldn't be so bad if Toyo was good at it. I mean, if you're going to study a manga that does exploration while keeping the characters intact, I suggest Toyo study One Piece, Berserk, or FMA.

Toyo also runs afoul with the pitfall of trying to explain something, but end up making more of a mess like the whole problem I have with Healer Trunks.

As for Minus and Resurrection 'F', Minus' problem is that it's a bonus chapter that needed more details. It reads more like an outline than a complete story. Resurrection 'F' is interesting since the hardcore Dragon Ball fans don't like it that much, but it's extremely popular with casuals. In comparison, Battle of Gods is extremely popular among the hardcore, yet a lot of casual fans found it boring. I mean, the reason why Resurrection 'F' was made the way it was was to address complains from Battle of Gods.

[batistabus]

He had many habits and quirks seen in many fanfiction authors (yes, I include myself in this too), especially the need to explain everything to the point that characters stopped being characters and become Mr. Explain. Which wouldn't be so bad if Toyo was good at it. I mean, if you're going to study a manga that does exploration while keeping the characters intact, I suggest Toyo study One Piece, Berserk, or FMA.

Toyo also runs afoul with the pitfall of trying to explain something, but end up making more of a mess like the whole problem I have with Healer Trunks.

What's an example of Toyotaro over-explaining to the detriment of the story?

What about healer Trunks is problematic?