Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

We don't even know if we are going to see Goku in the new movie at all.

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.

It wouldn’t flop if goku didn’t show up. That argument is very strange to make. I hope you are not using anecdotal evidence.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

We don't even know if we are going to see Goku in the new movie at all.

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.

The "orgin story" of the sayians

I would be willing to bet anything that we find out that Goku is a descendant of yamoshi: )

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

We don't even know if we are going to see Goku in the new movie at all.

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.

The "orgin story" of the sayians

I would be willing to bet anything that we find out that Goku is a descendant of yamoshi: )

I don't know..... being a descendant of the first Super Saiyan isn't the kind of direction I'd see going. I mean, Goku didn't have much potential for anything when he was born, and the advent of S-Cells doesn't seem to support this biological potential. Yamoshi just died when the rest of the Saiyans overpowered him and his allies through sheer numbers.

I also doubt he'd be the descendant of the original Super Saiyan God that appeared over Planet Vegeta. Well, unless Bardock and Gine's relationship is a remnant of that guy's lineage.

At the very least, Goku likely wasn't a descendant of the two Saiyans when they had achieved their transformations given how weak he was and how Bardock, while strong, wasn't exactly the peak of Saiyan strength.

[brett wheeler]

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.

The "orgin story" of the sayians

I would be willing to bet anything that we find out that Goku is a descendant of yamoshi: )

I don't know..... being a descendant of the first Super Saiyan isn't the kind of direction I'd see going. I mean, Goku didn't have much potential for anything when he was born, and the advent of S-Cells doesn't seem to support this biological potential. Yamoshi just died when the rest of the Saiyans overpowered him and his allies through sheer numbers.

I also doubt he'd be the descendant of the original Super Saiyan God that appeared over Planet Vegeta. Well, unless Bardock and Gine's relationship is a remnant of that guy's lineage.

At the very least, Goku likely wasn't a descendant of the two Saiyans when they had achieved their transformations given how weak he was and how Bardock, while strong, wasn't exactly the peak of Saiyan strength.

while agree I had to piont out, bardock was at his peak for the time, while he was called a low class his power was supposed to be 10,000, now while that doesnt seem like much now at the time that was insane, and if I remember correctly it was the same power lvl as king vegeta ( this would make sense as vegeta has mentioned he surpassed his dad as a kid and he had a power of 18,000 when he came to earth ), so bardock was an incredibly strong saiyan ( at the time ) and the only reason he wasnt treated as such was because he was born a low class, he had to work to get there.

[Helios518]

while agree I had to piont out, bardock was at his peak for the time, while he was called a low class his power was supposed to be 10,000, now while that doesnt seem like much now at the time that was insane, and if I remember correctly it was the same power lvl as king vegeta ( this would make sense as vegeta has mentioned he surpassed his dad as a kid and he had a power of 18,000 when he came to earth ), so bardock was an incredibly strong saiyan ( at the time ) and the only reason he wasnt treated as suck was because he was born a low class, he had to work to get there.

IIRC, Bardock's only achieved a power of 10,000 once he got the zenkai besides, the Bardock Special got retconned for DBMinus.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.

The "orgin story" of the sayians

I would be willing to bet anything that we find out that Goku is a descendant of yamoshi: )

I don't know..... being a descendant of the first Super Saiyan isn't the kind of direction I'd see going. I mean, Goku didn't have much potential for anything when he was born, and the advent of S-Cells doesn't seem to support this biological potential. Yamoshi just died when the rest of the Saiyans overpowered him and his allies through sheer numbers.

I also doubt he'd be the descendant of the original Super Saiyan God that appeared over Planet Vegeta. Well, unless Bardock and Gine's relationship is a remnant of that guy's lineage.

At the very least, Goku likely wasn't a descendant of the two Saiyans when they had achieved their transformations given how weak he was and how Bardock, while strong, wasn't exactly the peak of Saiyan strength.

Yamochi wasn't said it be born strong, right? He wasn't like a Brolly or anything if I recall?

I recall the story being that Yamochi achieved SS through desperation like Goku? And that Yamochi roamed the after life in search of pure hearted sayians?

It would seem kind of pointless if he was defeated way back then while an SSgod IMO.

I think what really sells it for me is that Toriyama describes Yamochi as a pure hearted Saiyan, just like Goku is: )

Yamochi always wanted to do the right thing and ultimately gave his life fighting for a just cause to eliminate the corruption going on in the leadership of the sayians.

That's total Goku.

Just my headcanon for now: )

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The "orgin story" of the sayians

I would be willing to bet anything that we find out that Goku is a descendant of yamoshi: )

I don't know..... being a descendant of the first Super Saiyan isn't the kind of direction I'd see going. I mean, Goku didn't have much potential for anything when he was born, and the advent of S-Cells doesn't seem to support this biological potential. Yamoshi just died when the rest of the Saiyans overpowered him and his allies through sheer numbers.

I also doubt he'd be the descendant of the original Super Saiyan God that appeared over Planet Vegeta. Well, unless Bardock and Gine's relationship is a remnant of that guy's lineage.

At the very least, Goku likely wasn't a descendant of the two Saiyans when they had achieved their transformations given how weak he was and how Bardock, while strong, wasn't exactly the peak of Saiyan strength.

Yamochi wasn't said it be born strong, right? He wasn't like a Brolly or anything if I recall?

I recall the story being that Yamochi achieved SS through desperation like Goku? And that Yamochi roamed the after life in search of pure hearted sayians?

It would seem kind of weird if he was defeated way back then while an SSgod IMO.

I think what really sells it for me is that Toriyama describes Yamochi as a pure hearted Saiyan, just like Goku is: )

Yamochi always wanted to do the right thing and ultimately gave his life fighting for a just cause to eliminate the corruption going on in the leadership of the sayians.

That's total Goku.

Just my headcanon for now: )

This is off-topic, so I'll keep this brief. Yamoshi wasn't the first SSG. He was the first Super Saiyan, died, and his soul wandered in search of 6 purehearted Saiyans, in search of the SSG. That's why there's a ritual: his spirit wandering enables the creation of a SSG, which is how the first one appeared over Planet Vegeta.

===

To bring things back to power levels, though, I wonder how far off Goku is from the likes of Whis and the other Angels, given that he's now mastered the Ultra Instinct.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I don't know..... being a descendant of the first Super Saiyan isn't the kind of direction I'd see going. I mean, Goku didn't have much potential for anything when he was born, and the advent of S-Cells doesn't seem to support this biological potential. Yamoshi just died when the rest of the Saiyans overpowered him and his allies through sheer numbers.

I also doubt he'd be the descendant of the original Super Saiyan God that appeared over Planet Vegeta. Well, unless Bardock and Gine's relationship is a remnant of that guy's lineage.

At the very least, Goku likely wasn't a descendant of the two Saiyans when they had achieved their transformations given how weak he was and how Bardock, while strong, wasn't exactly the peak of Saiyan strength.

Yamochi wasn't said it be born strong, right? He wasn't like a Brolly or anything if I recall?

I recall the story being that Yamochi achieved SS through desperation like Goku? And that Yamochi roamed the after life in search of pure hearted sayians?

It would seem kind of weird if he was defeated way back then while an SSgod IMO.

I think what really sells it for me is that Toriyama describes Yamochi as a pure hearted Saiyan, just like Goku is: )

Yamochi always wanted to do the right thing and ultimately gave his life fighting for a just cause to eliminate the corruption going on in the leadership of the sayians.

That's total Goku.

Just my headcanon for now: )

This is off-topic, so I'll keep this brief. Yamoshi wasn't the first SSG. He was the first Super Saiyan, died, and his soul wandered in search of 6 purehearted Saiyans, in search of the SSG. That's why there's a ritual: his spirit wandering enables the creation of a SSG, which is how the first one appeared over Planet Vegeta.

===

To bring things back to power levels, though, I wonder how far off Goku is from the likes of Whis and the other Angels, given that he's now mastered the Ultra Instinct.

Thank you for the clarification: ) That's what I figured. Do you think the movie will also have tie-ins with U6?

I'm really sad about Super ending but at least we will be getting some news on the movie instantly after it "ends"

I think Goku is still far away from Whis, but still slowly approaching them now: ) Goku has for sure surpassed all the gods with his glorious MUI transformation

[brett wheeler]

while agree I had to piont out, bardock was at his peak for the time, while he was called a low class his power was supposed to be 10,000, now while that doesnt seem like much now at the time that was insane, and if I remember correctly it was the same power lvl as king vegeta ( this would make sense as vegeta has mentioned he surpassed his dad as a kid and he had a power of 18,000 when he came to earth ), so bardock was an incredibly strong saiyan ( at the time ) and the only reason he wasnt treated as suck was because he was born a low class, he had to work to get there.

IIRC, Bardock's only achieved a power of 10,000 once he got the zenkai besides, the Bardock Special got retconned for DBMinus.

true but before the zenkia he still was pretty strong as his team was considered amongst the strongest, as they even said that bardock team was impressive ( also I know it got retconed but nothing suggest his strength did so I just stick to him beig about as strong he was before the zenkia ).

[Bullza]

It wouldn’t flop if goku didn’t show up. That argument is very strange to make. I hope you are not using anecdotal evidence.

Without the star of the series being in the movie it wouldn't be nearly as successful as the last two movies.

Bio-Broly was one of the least successful Dragon Ball Z movies and took a noticeable dip at the box office and it's no coincidence that it was because it didn't have Goku, Vegeta or Gohan. Even then that at least still had Goten, Trunks and Krillin.

Movies like Bardock Father of Goku and History of Trunks which were some of the better movies, Toei had the common sense to release as TV movies and not theatrical movies surely knowing that without the main characters it wouldn't be as successful.

If they did a movie with an original cast set before the events of Dragon Ball it will not be successful.

[Nevaeh]

I bet if Dragon Ball Super had kept on airing that it wouldn't have take long before Mastered Ultra Instinct became nothing special and it was losing battles left and right. Same with Jiren.

I remember saying how strong they thought Super Saiyan Rose Black was when he debuted and he ain't worth diddly squat anymore.

That's true of every form. Ultra Instinct will get fodderized to sell the next villain

As for UI Goku vs Beerus. A part of me hopes Toei/Toriyama crush the fandom's expectations and reveal Goku is only on par with Beerus

Seems unlikely, The angles are at the top of the food chain, and goku has just gotten a taste of that power, I doubt Ultra Instinct would have gotten irrelavent if super went on, especially since it’s not a form you can take whenever you want. And toei will never state that about goku and beerus. 1, MUI hasn’t been achieved by any god, and two, even if they were on par, toei will probably never say a thing about. The manga however is always powerscaling characters for us. Do you can expect the manga to say something about it, unless 130 outright states MUI goku to be above hakaishin level.

It's happened with literally every form tho

Ultra Instinct will start to lose it's mystique once Vegeta gets it (no way he doesn't get it). Besides if they want Goku to get stronger they'll give him something new like they always do

[Bullza]

It has, hopefully they handle it better than with Super Saiyan Blue though.

They used it fine up until after the Future Trunks Saga and then it was just greatly overused. It shouldn't have been in the filler with the Baseball or Arale. Probably shouldn't have been used against Android 17 or Ultimate Gohan. Definitely shouldn't have been used against the likes of Nink, the Trio De Dangers, Kale, Dyspo, Kunshi and Ribrianne in the Tournament of Power.

The first time we saw Super Saiyan Blue in the Tournament should have been when he used it against Jiren.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

That's true of every form. Ultra Instinct will get fodderized to sell the next villain

As for UI Goku vs Beerus. A part of me hopes Toei/Toriyama crush the fandom's expectations and reveal Goku is only on par with Beerus

Seems unlikely, The angles are at the top of the food chain, and goku has just gotten a taste of that power, I doubt Ultra Instinct would have gotten irrelavent if super went on, especially since it’s not a form you can take whenever you want. And toei will never state that about goku and beerus. 1, MUI hasn’t been achieved by any god, and two, even if they were on par, toei will probably never say a thing about. The manga however is always powerscaling characters for us. Do you can expect the manga to say something about it, unless 130 outright states MUI goku to be above hakaishin level.

It's happened with literally every form tho

Ultra Instinct will start to lose it's mystique once Vegeta gets it (no way he doesn't get it). Besides if they want Goku to get stronger they'll give him something new like they always do

Vegeta isn't getting it unless he changes his perspectives on life and becomes a changed person

Current Vegeta with his current personality is never getting UI

Whis to Vegeta "you're way too tense"

Whis said or heavily implied that Goku was the one with the best shot at UI, because of how relaxed, loose, in the moment he was.

Where it's easy for Goku to empty his mind, be lost in the moment of the fight, and enter the flow state/zen state where he's reacting on instinct with little thought etc

And sure enough that's exactly what happened. The legendary prodigious Son Goku even mastered it before the gods!!! The legend of Son Goku is beautiful

[majinwarman]

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.

The "orgin story" of the sayians

I would be willing to bet anything that we find out that Goku is a descendant of yamoshi: )

I don't know..... being a descendant of the first Super Saiyan isn't the kind of direction I'd see going. I mean, Goku didn't have much potential for anything when he was born, and the advent of S-Cells doesn't seem to support this biological potential. Yamoshi just died when the rest of the Saiyans overpowered him and his allies through sheer numbers.

I also doubt he'd be the descendant of the original Super Saiyan God that appeared over Planet Vegeta. Well, unless Bardock and Gine's relationship is a remnant of that guy's lineage.

At the very least, Goku likely wasn't a descendant of the two Saiyans when they had achieved their transformations given how weak he was and how Bardock, while strong, wasn't exactly the peak of Saiyan strength.

Let's just wait for new information about the movie to come out before we start guessing about what the new movie is going to have.

[ZombieVito]

Ssj Kefla was losing to a tired SsjB Goku, doubt Hit would.
How are the Namekians stronger than Kale?
Vegeta used Ssj against Botamo in the Tournament.
Rubalt lost instantly against Piccolo. Napapa did good against Ssj Caulifla and Murichim was stated to be tired against Freeza.

Kefla was holding back. It's very apparent after she knocks him out with one kick.
Because they rivaled Gohan and Kale couldn't even beat a tired out SSG Goku. She is a lot weaker.
Irrelevant because of Botamo's ability.
Piccolo is SS2 tier. Napapa lost to Freeza, so he's base tier. No such thing was stated about Murichim.

[HeroR]

Ssj Kefla was losing to a tired SsjB Goku, doubt Hit would.
How are the Namekians stronger than Kale?
Vegeta used Ssj against Botamo in the Tournament.
Rubalt lost instantly against Piccolo. Napapa did good against Ssj Caulifla and Murichim was stated to be tired against Freeza.

Kefla was holding back. It's very apparent after she knocks him out with one kick.
Because they rivaled Gohan and Kale couldn't even beat a tired out SSG Goku. She is a lot weaker.
Irrelevant because of Botamo's ability.
Piccolo is SS2 tier. Napapa lost to Freeza, so he's base tier. No such thing was stated about Murichim.

Kale was more or less fighting evenly with Super Saiyan God Goku. She took a direct punch to the face and had no mark on her and went hands with him twice.

true but before the zenkia he still was pretty strong as his team was considered amongst the strongest, as they even said that bardock team was impressive ( also I know it got retconed but nothing suggest his strength did so I just stick to him beig about as strong he was before the zenkia ).

It was, directly by Toriyama before he even wrote Minus. According to Toriyama, while Bardock was indeed strong for a low class Saiyan, he never became strong enough to become a mid-tier Saiyan, which mean he was weaker than Nappa before he died.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Kefla was holding back. It's very apparent after she knocks him out with one kick.

Holding back, it doesn't make sense with the context. Kefla was claiming Goku was a worthy opponent, Goku telling her to pump things up, Picoolo later making it noteworthy to claim Kefla surpassed the same Goku as a SSJ2, Roshio claiming she's beyond her limits and Whis claiming her Saiyan blood is what's only driving her even when Goku was overpowering her throughout the fight with SSBKK. I'm pretty sure he Got knocked out by due to his staimia getting a lot worse after using Kaioken ontop of Blue, this was impiled as Beerus claims he shouldn't be using kaioken as well as that he has one more shot left in which he tired to finish Kefla with a Kamekameka. I think episode 128 made it clear that getting get by brute force is enough to reduce ki, like when Vegeta got punched by Jiren in which people were concern for his stamina.

Piccolo is SS2 tier. Napapa lost to Freeza, so he's base tier. No such thing was stated about Murichim.

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

Didn’t SSG Goku say Freeza’s kick in his back felt like a tickle? Freeza also has a common habit of overestimate himself, specially when he fought Toppo. When he faced SS2 Cabba he wasted no time to brush off his blast with the golden form.

[HeroR]

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

Didn’t SSG Goku say Freeza’s kick in his back felt like a tickle? Freeza also has a common habit of overestimate himself, specially when he fought Toppo. When he faced SS2 Cabba he wasted no time to brush off his blast with the golden form.

Freeza always overestimates himself with Resurrection 'F' being the one exception where he was surprised by how much stronger he became. You just have to look at his performance against God of Destruction Toppo. But yes, Freeza needed to go gold to wipe a tired Super Saiyan 2 Cabba.

[TheOtherDude]

Seems unlikely, The angles are at the top of the food chain, and goku has just gotten a taste of that power, I doubt Ultra Instinct would have gotten irrelavent if super went on, especially since it’s not a form you can take whenever you want. And toei will never state that about goku and beerus. 1, MUI hasn’t been achieved by any god, and two, even if they were on par, toei will probably never say a thing about. The manga however is always powerscaling characters for us. Do you can expect the manga to say something about it, unless 130 outright states MUI goku to be above hakaishin level.

It's happened with literally every form tho

Ultra Instinct will start to lose it's mystique once Vegeta gets it (no way he doesn't get it). Besides if they want Goku to get stronger they'll give him something new like they always do

Vegeta isn't getting it unless he changes his perspectives on life and becomes a changed person

Current Vegeta with his current personality is never getting UI

Whis to Vegeta "you're way too tense"

Whis said or heavily implied that Goku was the one with the best shot at UI, because of how relaxed, loose, in the moment he was.

Where it's easy for Goku to empty his mind, be lost in the moment of the fight, and enter the flow state/zen state where he's reacting on instinct with little thought etc

And sure enough that's exactly what happened. The legendary prodigious Son Goku even mastered it before the gods!!! The legend of Son Goku is beautiful

IF the current dragon ball series continues, Vegeta will either get the same or some variation of UI that will put them closer together in power.

You won’t like it but it WILL happen. I called this happening at the beginning of the arc and sure enough Vegeta and Goku were essentially equals without ssbkk.